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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
 
NuclearConsensus said:
Didn't Obander argue against these honors? Seems rather gauche to award him one when he didn't want them in the first place.
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I think its funny and also more seriously that it would be deeply interesting and perhaps even deeply Eretrian for the first man to be awarded with this honor to be a man who didnt want it to exist in the first place. Far better than for it to be Linos, who we shouldnt trust with that kind of glory.

Furthermore, the thing exists now and Obander's achievements do deserve to be noted as great achievements.

Also, it creates the duality of celebrating Linos' victory and celebrate Obander's achievements. War and Diplomacy.
 
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
[X] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
 
Simon_Jester said:
Why not? Has he shown signs of being treacherous or excessively ambitious?
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He is a very good politician and a very good general, which is a dicey combination. Again the whole thing with Iraenos while he was most definitely right, he didnt need to engineer a propaganda campaign at the same time to drive out an talented officer who made his plans work.

I dont think he is necessarily shaddy, but you know I also dont think it would hurt to be a little careful about him.
 
Deadly Snark said:
He is a very good politician and a very good general, which is a dicey combination. Again the whole thing with Iraenos while he was most definitely right, he didnt need to engineer a propaganda campaign at the same time to drive out an talented officer who made his plans work.

I dont think he is necessarily shaddy, but you know I also dont think it would hurt to be a little careful about him.
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Considering the Drakonia had proposed Iraenos as strategos for that mission back during the election cycle I think this is less a move about eliminating a political rival as it is discrediting a philosophy that Linos is opposed to.
 
Void Stalker said:
Considering the Drakonia had proposed Iraenos as strategos for that mission back during the election cycle I think this is less a move about eliminating a political rival as it is discrediting a philosophy that Linos is opposed to.
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That was 3 years, almost 4 years, ago. Things change, just because they once nominated him in the past doesnt mean that they cant see him as a rival to screw over in the now. Especially since that was when Lino was running for Proboulos and thus had taken himself out of the Strategos pool.
 
Cetashwayo said:
I don't think supplying equipment is necessarily beyond the pale. Cities became far more regular and standardized in their citizen forces in the 4th century BCE. However it is a lot of money, and in the eyes of most of the demes the city would be better off keeping a bigger discretionary budget or expanding the ekdromoi to 750 or even 1,000 men, which would allow it to be a more effective marine force, especially if the city wishes to expand its navy.



Case in point; Augustus was able to neutralize, at enormous expense, the entire threat of powerful generals for two centuries by having the state take on responsibility for providing soldiers' pensions. This change nearly bankrupted the empire and would remain a terrible drain on its coffers, and broke down in the 3rd century AD, but basically meant that until the death of Commodus and the crisis of the third century the emperors barely had to worry about powerful generals at all. The main problem were the Praetorian Guard, who remained in Italy, but there were no more mass marches of Legions into Italy or massive civil wars until the Soldier Emperors of the third century reversed this dynamic, sidelined the senate, and basically relied entirely on their armies for their survival.
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Well, war is kind of unprofitable, the whole landowner warrior setup is basically an elaborate scam on the landowners to trade tangibles for intangibles, and the losses mainly absorbed by the dead.

Paying people in silver to train and fight is a sight more expensive than paying them in glory I guess?
 
Deadly Snark said:
I think its funny and also more seriously that it would be deeply interesting and perhaps even deeply Eretrian for the first man to be awarded with this honor to be a man who didnt want it to exist in the first place. Far better than for it to be Linos, who we shouldnt trust with that kind of glory.
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Leukos the Accountant:

[doubles over laughing]

"I, too, will lift your rock!"

Deadly Snark said:
He is a very good politician and a very good general, which is a dicey combination. Again the whole thing with Iraenos while he was most definitely right, he didnt need to engineer a propaganda campaign at the same time to drive out an talented officer who made his plans work.

I dont think he is necessarily shaddy, but you know I also dont think it would hurt to be a little careful about him.
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To be fair, Epiktetos may have been legitimately shocked by the whole crucifixion and butchering prisoners thing, to the point where he went out of his way to make sure that didn't get covered up.

But you're not wrong. He's smart, and he thinks his way around obstacles, and such men do bear a bit of watching.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Only if we let it happen.

Hear me oh Citizens of Eretria.

This years has been a fortuitous one for our fair City. We have found success in both war and peace. The Gods have shown us favor for the completion of the Renovated Divine Hill, and have reward who are their most fervent servants.

And yet this favor could not have been manifested were it not for the efforts of our brothers. Through our deeds we have demonstrated the Eretria is indeed still a City of Heroes the equals of those of the Founding. In recognition of that I say we award our best man with the Wreath of Apollo that the Ekklesia established.

Wise Obander has proven himself to be the epitome of an Eretrian Stateman. Well-spoken, well liked, subtle in his plan and true to our allies. I speak of course of the events in Sicily. Where Obander's efforts played a significant role in breaking us free from the trap Syracuse had set for us. Acting with the foresight of Odysseus, he cleverly hid away the true extend of his skills and intellect and thus in doing so lowered the guard of his foes and allowed him to guide him along the path we wished them to walk.

Though the Sicilians and the Athenai will remember the young Alcibiades more in their songs, we know the truth. The Fruits of Eris that the fair haired Leotinos sowed in his path would have been nothing but pure Chaos were it not for the wise counsel and guidance of the Black Bull. In doing so, he achieved everything that Eretria wished for. To say nothing of the fact that with their eyes turned on Alcibiades, our enemies have also turned their ire on him as well, leaving us a Sicily divided but who do not suspect us. In fact they have nothing but the greatest respect for us thanks to Obander building on the deeds of Mighty Herodion.

However it is not simply that he prevented the rise of a Sicily United under our hated enemy and saved us from the wrath of Titan.

In his tenure as our emissary, he has also accomplished the secret desire that Eretria has held for decades. Ever since the treacherous dishonor of Kerkyra and Lykai. As a youth my father told me of the story of Eretria and Taras. Once two cities as close as brothers, united against a limitless horde of Barbaroi who would burn our cities down. A friendship forged in camaraderie and blood not unlike the spartiate twins Castor and Polydeuces. Yet unlike that tale, this one ended in the tragedy of our betrayal and abandonment of Taras at its moment of need. Though it was necessary at the time, it neverthless was an act of dishonor that shamed our fathers and our city and made the Tarentines burn with resentment and hatred.

Eretrians and Tarentines will likely never be brothers again, as proven in our last war against each other. Yet this does not mean that peace is impossible nor that betrayal, dishonor and shame cannot be buried together. As our new sacred grove proves and has Obander achieved when he convinced Taras of our sincerity.

Much work yet remains to be done, and this peace might yet be broken. But even so, Obander has set the foundations for the future where we might yet be friends again. And if events pushes our cities to war once again, we can do no free of the shadow casted upon our moods from the Betrayal.

Thus I nominate Obander to be honored with the Wreath of Apollo.

So says Tychaus the Aristoi

[X]Grant Obander the Wreath of Apollo
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I support this motion; for it is fitting that any man we honor is aware of the dangers that come with that honor.
 
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
 
Deadly Snark said:
Only if we let it happen.

Hear me oh Citizens of Eretria.

This years has been a fortuitous one for our fair City. We have found success in both war and peace. The Gods have shown us favor for the completion of the Renovated Divine Hill, and have reward who are their most fervent servants.

And yet this favor could not have been manifested were it not for the efforts of our brothers. Through our deeds we have demonstrated the Eretria is indeed still a City of Heroes the equals of those of the Founding. In recognition of that I say we award our best man with the Wreath of Apollo that the Ekklesia established.

Wise Obander has proven himself to be the epitome of an Eretrian Stateman. Well-spoken, well liked, subtle in his plan and true to our allies. I speak of course of the events in Sicily. Where Obander's efforts played a significant role in breaking us free from the trap Syracuse had set for us. Acting with the foresight of Odysseus, he cleverly hid away the true extend of his skills and intellect and thus in doing so lowered the guard of his foes and allowed him to guide him along the path we wished them to walk.

Though the Sicilians and the Athenai will remember the young Alcibiades more in their songs, we know the truth. The Fruits of Eris that the fair haired Leotinos sowed in his path would have been nothing but pure Chaos were it not for the wise counsel and guidance of the Black Bull. In doing so, he achieved everything that Eretria wished for. To say nothing of the fact that with their eyes turned on Alcibiades, our enemies have also turned their ire on him as well, leaving us a Sicily divided but who do not suspect us. In fact they have nothing but the greatest respect for us thanks to Obander building on the deeds of Mighty Herodion.

However it is not simply that he prevented the rise of a Sicily United under our hated enemy and saved us from the wrath of Titan.

In his tenure as our emissary, he has also accomplished the secret desire that Eretria has held for decades. Ever since the treacherous dishonor of Kerkyra and Lykai. As a youth my father told me of the story of Eretria and Taras. Once two cities as close as brothers, united against a limitless horde of Barbaroi who would burn our cities down. A friendship forged in camaraderie and blood not unlike the spartiate twins Castor and Polydeuces. Yet unlike that tale, this one ended in the tragedy of our betrayal and abandonment of Taras at its moment of need. Though it was necessary at the time, it neverthless was an act of dishonor that shamed our fathers and our city and made the Tarentines burn with resentment and hatred.

Eretrians and Tarentines will likely never be brothers again, as proven in our last war against each other. Yet this does not mean that peace is impossible nor that betrayal, dishonor and shame cannot be buried together. As our new sacred grove proves and has Obander achieved when he convinced Taras of our sincerity.

Much work yet remains to be done, and this peace might yet be broken. But even so, Obander has set the foundations for the future where we might yet be friends again. And if events pushes our cities to war once again, we can do no free of the shadow casted upon our moods from the Betrayal.

Thus I nominate Obander to be honored with the Wreath of Apollo.

So says Tychaus the Aristoi

[X]Grant Obander the Wreath of Apollo
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I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, shall lift your rock in support of this motion!
Cetashwayo said:
The city pays the ekdromoi to maintain their own arms and armor and they purchase it from the city's armor and weapon makers and maintain them. They're given the same wages as a skilled craftsman but as many of them own land too they supplement their income that way. However they often just lease the land out to Metics rather than farming it themselves because they're abroad often.
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Cetashwayo said:
The city pays the ekdromoi to maintain their own arms and armor and they purchase it from the city's armor and weapon makers and maintain them. They're given the same wages as a skilled craftsman but as many of them own land too they supplement their income that way. However they often just lease the land out to Metics rather than farming it themselves because they're abroad often.
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Exactly how are the Hieros Ekdromoi armed compared to the Hoplites?

Do they have the same sized aspis or smaller? Same dory sizes? Kopis or axes for secondary weapons? Helmets too?

Do they have a regimental banner of some sort? Special insignia or flag for the battlefield?
 
"I would actually favour giving both Obander and Linos a Wreath of Apollon, for this year Eretria Eshkata has been blessed with a marriage of victories. One in the west and one to the east; one in diplomacy and one in battle; one on Land and one at Sea. Both equally impressive.
There is definitely a certain appeal in giving our first Wreath to its most outspoken opponent. For should not he be honoured, that sees his service as its own reward? I support giving both Obander and then Linos, who has now twice distinguished himself in the role of Strategos, a Wreath of Apollo, for their services rendered to our city.

Next year's elections are soon to be upon us, and while we do not yet know the slates of the three Demoi, I'm not opposed to also engage in some light speculation. Should we move ahead with our goal to offer refuge to the people of Kymai, then our next Xenoparakletor will have to travel to both Rhegion, to secure safe passage, and to at least one coastal tribe of the Adriatic, to secure a future location for a new settlement.
Talk in the Ekklesia seems to favour securing a spot in the Lagoon at the northern end of the Adriatic. This would mean engaging with the mercantile Enetoi, who have different values than the more martial Epulian Barbaroi. When combining this with our report from Obander's visit to Rhegion, whom he felt were cutthroat traders, then I start to see the appeal in a Xenoparakletor from the mercantile Deme Drakonia. For while Mnemnon and Obander might be quite proficient in negotiations with the Enetoi and Rhegion respectively, whomever get put forward by Drakonia might just be good with both."

So speaks Gregorios, Son of Alexios, recently returned from the Liburnian Campaign.
 
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So with the talk about the Lucani, I decided to do some research. The Lucani have an economic boom starting around 400 BC. They begin setting up many new cities with far larger populations than in the past. They also incorporate elements they find useful from Greek cities into the designs of these new cities. So fast forward a decade and your at 390 BC. Now according to Bibliotheca historica, written by Diodorus Siculus that the Lucani are now so powerful and scare all the Greek cities in Italy to form a defensive league as a result. Though some papers I read suggested certain Roman sources over-hyped the threat of the Lucani at that point. Moving on their is a Lucani raid on Thurii territory which is repelled. Then the Thurii decide to pursue this force back to relatively recently conquered Laus.

On the way the Thurii get ambushed and the Lucani kill 10,000 out of a 15,000 strong Thurii army. That ends Thurii era of prosperity and afterwards Dionysius I shows up and working with the Lucani wrecks several Greek cities in southern Italy. Though hopefully in this timeline the Thurii don't fall into an ATL ambush and cripple themselves. So I feel while the occasional lone Lucani tribe will occasionally conquer one of the weaker Greek cities, I don't think we have to worry about some massive horde of Lucani crashing into us or our allies and vassals for a while. They will however become an increasing issue in the next century.
 
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Godwinson said:
You've completely misunderstood the point of intervening. We can't save the city, but we sure as fuck can save its people.
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No shit we can't save the city. But if we don't do something to at least delay its fall we aren't going to save many of the people either.

Simon_Jester said:
No see, the problem is that your definition of "save the city" requires us to do things the rest of us believe are impossible, like "win a land war in Samnium." Our definition of "save the city" requires us to do things we believe are merely difficult, but that result in the people of Kymai being evacuated to some other place.

Therefore, while many of us have very strong feelings about "how to save the city," our ideas and plans don't even register on your radar as "saving the city," so you just decide that no one else is even trying and you're the only one who cares and yell at us.
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Then show me your plans to get enough Kymaians out of their city before the Oscans take it to still form a coherent citizenry without actually doing anything to delay the city's fall.

And if you're going to define "win a war with the Samnites" as "take any successful military action against them whatsoever" rather than the more normal meaning of "win a war with the Samnites" as "succeed in conquering Samnite territory or permanently halt their expansion," then either you're also going to need to accept that we're going to war with the Samnites, or you're going to need to accept that Kymai will fall as soon as the Oscans get bored of the siege and assault it.

I mean, I can at least respect @Ironanvil1's position, because he thinks the attempt is doomed and that we have other things to focus on closer to home. But the rest of you, as best as I can tell, are currently working off the following plan:

1) Decide to save Kymai.
2) Do nothing to keep the city from falling to the first Oscan assault, because that would mean putting our soldiers at risk.
3) Somehow save everyone anyway, despite our inability to move substantial numbers of civilians quickly.

If I'm misreading what you're planning, then maybe you could post a coherent idea for what to do so that we all have something else to work with? Because right now I'm not seeing much on that score.

Cetashwayo said:
You can extend the siege for a while depending on your choices. You just kept throwing out insane ideas, my man :p

And you have at least three years to evacuate them anyway.
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If somebody has more sane ideas to present, I'd love to hear them. Seriously, I would, because I know my plan is a big gamble (although I still think it could work, or at the very least that the idea of going after the enemy's food rather than their troops is sound when we don't have the numbers or skill to fight them in open battle but also don't have to do more than just delay their conquest of the remaining bit of Campania). But right now it's just a lot of silence and crickets on that front.

Also three years is how long Kymai has before it starves to death. Given what you've told us about the number of soldiers they have left compared to the number of Oscans besieging them, I'm seriously doubtful that the Oscans are going to wait for starvation to win the city for them, and the only question is how long it takes for the Oscans to realize that they have a reasonable chance of just overwhelming the garrison if they launch an assault.
 
...this was originally going to be a joke emblem post about a sun resting in olive branches, but after playing with it I actually kinda like it.

Someone who's better than me at Photoshop will need to clean up the artifacts, though.

 
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Is there possibility of Taras joining our Leauge? Because from what i understand Italian city states intervened out of fear of us destroying Taras and then forcing everyone in our Leauge.
So by that logic if Taras joins other cities will follow, so if anything that should be goal of our forgein policy before war in Greece ends and someone else can intervene to stop us.
 
Star said:
Is there possibility of Taras joining our Leauge? Because from what i understand Italian city states intervened out of fear of us destroying Taras and then forcing everyone in our Leauge.
So by that logic if Taras joins other cities will follow, so if anything that should be goal of our forgein policy before war in Greece ends and someone else can intervene to stop us.
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Not as it currently stands. No way is Taras going to agree to play second fiddle to Eretria.

As the creators of the league we could possibly alter it so they could stand as firsts among equals. However we just started to get over the bad blood between us, so maybe start easing relations first.
 
The Sandman said:
If somebody has more sane ideas to present, I'd love to hear them. Seriously, I would, because I know my plan is a big gamble (although I still think it could work, or at the very least that the idea of going after the enemy's food rather than their troops is sound when we don't have the numbers or skill to fight them in open battle but also don't have to do more than just delay their conquest of the remaining bit of Campania). But right now it's just a lot of silence and crickets on that front.

Also three years is how long Kymai has before it starves to death. Given what you've told us about the number of soldiers they have left compared to the number of Oscans besieging them, I'm seriously doubtful that the Oscans are going to wait for starvation to win the city for them, and the only question is how long it takes for the Oscans to realize that they have a reasonable chance of just overwhelming the garrison if they launch an assault.
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I was under the impression that in this age walled cities are effectively impregnable to assaults since the siege technology needed to get through or over the walls with acceptable casualties doesn't really exist yet? Certainly it doesn't exist for a horde of Italiote barbaroi youth. Sieges either go until someone inside betrays the city and opens the gates for the invaders, or until the city surrenders because of the threat of starvation.

I honestly expect that as long as we or the Kymaians keep a token garrison on the walls we can just sail our rescue fleet into the harbor and get out again without a risk of the Oscans storming the city walls.
 
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[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].

Cetashwayo said:
The Persian Empire is an empire of unimaginable scope and scale that stretches into lands no Hellene has ever seen. It has an almost infinite reserve of manpower, or at least so beyond the level of imagining for any other state that it is not worth estimating. The Persian Empire's main limitation is precisely how massive it is, as it has decentralized over the past few decades and much of its power lies in the hands of the satraps. Through the cities of Syria, Anatolia, and Phoenicia the Persian Empire can raise a fleet of 700 Triremes in the Mediterranean. The Empire is a byword for wealth and has inexhaustible reserves of gold and silver hoarded over decades.
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[MENACING]
 
Our means to incorporate the other Italiote Hellenes into our system would be a "League of Leagues", I suspect, given each of the major cities has a collection of minor tributaries, albeit not on the scale of the Epulian League.

As regards our psiloi, I'd been pushing for us to formally establish a corps of Euzonoi since the Battle of Canthra, when we first defeated Harpos and swiped a huge pile of Peuketti panopoly.

@Cetashwayo what sort of costs would be involved in designating say 500 of our better psiloi as Euzonoi and paying them a maintenance stipend? I'd assume they'd get a lower amount than the Ekdromoi.
 
Secretariat said:
...this was originally going to be a joke emblem post about a sun resting in olive branches, but after playing with it I actually kinda like it.

Someone who's better than me at Photoshop will need to clean up the artifacts, though.

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I think we should keep our current symbolism for Eretria itself, but this could easily work as a good symbol for our league.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Our means to incorporate the other Italiote Hellenes into our system would be a "League of Leagues", I suspect, given each of the major cities has a collection of minor tributaries, albeit not on the scale of the Epulian League.
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Somewhere, the King of Kings has a hearty chuckle, imagining how ridiculous it would be if a Greek polis that faced destruction fled west, started all over again and ended up using a Persian-style word construction for a grand league project in the style of King of Kings or Priest of Priests. Then he stops himself, that would be ridiculous and could never happen.
 
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