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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Yeah, I don't particularly see a profusion of sacred bands being a thing. It's probably the only decent argument to be made about euzonoi is class representation, but I highly doubt it'd be enough on its own for traction. Instead, I would much rather encourage the formation of an equivalent force among our Italian allies, who are already the primary source we have for light infantry.
 
Erandil said:
I am pretty sure that would be less than welcomed by our military elites and could easily become problematic since having "foreign" armed forces in the city is probably not the ideal situation for a democracy to be in. I mean there are the mysterious "scythian archers" of Athens who might have been something of a police force consisting of perhaps state-owned slaves but as I understand they are a somewhat controversial topic with not too much evidence in history and very much the exception. Even the Romans, masters of using allies, didn't have anything like that for a very long time.
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The idea was to break the tribal bonds by recruiting from all of our allies without barriers within the company. And being the ones paying for it, rather than them being levies of their kings. They're likely to be more loyal to the city as a concept than to individual factions. Having our allies' soldiers aspire to a spot directly in service to us could have some interesting effects.

We could always camp them outside the city in their own fort.
 
Where the Euzonoi would likely fit is in that "elite of the rowers" slot we were talking about a while back, where a dozen or so of them as light marines would make our commerce a rather formidable target for any remaining pirates, employing them full time, and allow them to be collected either as a landing force, or a skirmishing force in war.
 
Yeah, but I am honestly a bit surprised that the Peuketti etc. are so strongly limited to light infantry and maybe cavalry since it was my understanding that a lot of the native italian forces were roughly similar to the greeks in their force composition when they could afford it and while a lot of our barbarian allies seem to tend to a more pastoral lifestyle they also seem to possess several towns/cities as well as nice and productive arable farmland which to me at least suggest they should be able to afford some sort of "heavy" infantry, especially if you include the continuous process of Hellenization.
 
Erandil said:
Yeah, but I am honestly a bit surprised that the Peuketti etc. are so strongly limited to light infantry and maybe cavalry since it was my understanding that a lot of the native italian forces were roughly similar to the greeks in their force composition when they could afford it and while a lot of our barbarian allies seem to tend to a more pastoral lifestyle they also seem to possess several towns/cities as well as nice and productive arable farmland which to me at least suggest they should be able to afford some sort of "heavy" infantry, especially if you include the continuous process of Hellenization.
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It's a matter of prejudice. Only Hellenes may fight in the phalanx.
 
Erandil said:
Yeah, but I am honestly a bit surprised that the Peuketti etc. are so strongly limited to light infantry and maybe cavalry since it was my understanding that a lot of the native italian forces were roughly similar to the greeks in their force composition when they could afford it and while a lot of our barbarian allies seem to tend to a more pastoral lifestyle they also seem to possess several towns/cities as well as nice and productive arable farmland which to me at least suggest they should be able to afford some sort of "heavy" infantry, especially if you include the continuous process of Hellenization.
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They did have a lot of medium/heavy infantry. We killed them.
 
Nyvis said:
If we want it to work within the tributary system, how about a permanent force recruited from volunteers from our barbaroi allies and kept around the city? A sort of scout corps with the best rangers from our allies, with good knowledge of local terrain. I don't know if there's a real use case for that, but a permanent mixed force of our different vassals would be interesting at least? And it would be loyal to its paymasters, aka us.
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That would be an interesting sub-case of "hire mercenaries." Form a small permanent Corps of Guides (to borrow a term from European colonialism that applies fairly well to how we'd be using the Italian natives).

However, there would be political obstacles. If the Guides lived in or near the city, any trouble stirred up between the Italian Guides and the Hellene metics and citizens would loop back to citizens in the Assembly demanding that the Guides be sent away as a bunch of disruptive unnecessary barbarians. If the Guides didn't live in or near the city, citizens would probably object to sending more than a very small stipend to barbarians who aren't even around and for all they know have no intention of actually showing up to fight for Eretria.

Droman said:
Erastos, son of Nikedemos, He Who Fears and Kills Spiders: "So what about an elephant force? You know, in case we have to fight the Carthaginians, or gods forbid, the Persians. "
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Leukos the Accountant:

"Do you know how much a elephant eats? Two talents of greenery a day. Do you know how to tame and breed elephants in a pen? No, and as far as I know, neither does anyone else in the city."
 
Simon_Jester said:
That would be an interesting sub-case of "hire mercenaries." Form a small permanent Corps of Guides (to borrow a term from European colonialism that applies fairly well to how we'd be using the Italian natives).

However, there would be political obstacles. If the Guides lived in or near the city, any trouble stirred up between the Italian Guides and the Hellene metics and citizens would loop back to citizens in the Assembly demanding that the Guides be sent away as a bunch of disruptive unnecessary barbarians. If the Guides didn't live in or near the city, citizens would probably object to sending more than a very small stipend to barbarians who aren't even around and for all they know have no intention of actually showing up to fight for Eretria.
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Fair enough, we can always ask for scouts as a levy instead. I just thought it would be an interesting way to build up integration by inviting their heroes and inspirational figures to serve under us directly. Sort of an antique foreign legion.
 
Nyvis said:
Fair enough, we can always ask for scouts as a levy instead. I just thought it would be an interesting way to build up integration by inviting their heroes and inspirational figures to serve under us directly.
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They have their own society and nobility. They're not going to let you just take away their heroes and keep them in Eretria, not without a fight.
 
Cetashwayo said:
They have their own society and nobility. They're not going to let you just take away their heroes and keep them in Eretria, not without a fight.
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Take is a big word, I was thinking of judicious incentives. But I see your point, there would be both a cultural and a pragmatic pushback against that.
 
Nyvis said:
Fair enough, we can always ask for scouts as a levy instead. I just thought it would be an interesting way to build up integration by inviting their heroes and inspirational figures to serve under us directly. Sort of an antique foreign legion.
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Cetashwayo said:
They have their own society and nobility. They're not going to let you just take away their heroes and keep them in Eretria, not without a fight.
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A more reasonable approach would be to have a festival where we expressly invite all our barbaroi dependencies to show up and socialize. An Epulian Games, open to any Greek-speakers associated with Eretria, perhaps.
 
Godwinson said:
A more reasonable approach would be to have a festival where we expressly invite all our barbaroi dependencies to show up and socialize. An Epulian Games, open to any Greek-speakers associated with Eretria, perhaps.
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The barbaroi already socialize with you at the festival of Apollon and Artemis, which is also when the annual cattle drive is. They give their tribute and renew their vows during the festival, and sacrifice sheep.
 
Erandil said:
Yeah, but I am honestly a bit surprised that the Peuketti etc. are so strongly limited to light infantry and maybe cavalry since it was my understanding that a lot of the native italian forces were roughly similar to the greeks in their force composition when they could afford it and while a lot of our barbarian allies seem to tend to a more pastoral lifestyle they also seem to possess several towns/cities as well as nice and productive arable farmland which to me at least suggest they should be able to afford some sort of "heavy" infantry, especially if you include the continuous process of Hellenization.
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Back when the Eretrians were still fighting the natives of the surrounding area regularly, some of them did armor up and fight more or less phalanx-style. However, more or less as historically, the Greeks turned out to be better at the 'block of heavy infantry' game than their opponents, and so the Italiotes lost those battles. They do actually tend to do better by fighting as skirmishers, because the phalanx is vulnerable to such tactics.

Plus the Eretrians probably looted the battlefields and took any good-looking armor, which would in turn mean that the Peuketii no longer have an inherited stockpile of such armor and would have to make new armor from scratch. I imagine similar problems are afflicting the Messapii after years of warfare against Taras.

It's entirely possible that some of the Italiote auxiliaries we bring with us on campaign have a respectable amount of body armor and would be capable of fighting in a phalanx if it weren't for the Eretrians' pro-Hellene prejudices.

Godwinson said:
A more reasonable approach would be to have a festival where we expressly invite all our barbaroi dependencies to show up and socialize. An Epulian Games, open to any Greek-speakers associated with Eretria, perhaps.
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Yeah. That way we at least know who the best archers and horsemen and so on among the Peuketii and Messapii are, so we can hire them quickly when we need them.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Festival of Apollon & Artemis (Late Summer): The premier festival for barbaroi outside the city. Tribute is collected from all of the tributary vassals, athletic games are held, a contest of plays is held in the Theater of the Thunderbird, the barbarian agora is opened up to any and all from within and without the city. With the arrival of the cattle drive along with the ceremony of the barbaroi swearing sacred oaths, this festival has become extremely popular.
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Godwinson said:
A more reasonable approach would be to have a festival where we expressly invite all our barbaroi dependencies to show up and socialize. An Epulian Games, open to any Greek-speakers associated with Eretria, perhaps.
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...
 
Cetashwayo said:
The barbaroi already socialize with you at the festival of Apollon and Artemis, which is also when the annual cattle drive is. They give their tribute and renew their vows during the festival, and sacrifice sheep.
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Erandil said:
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Yes, I suppose I should have specified the idea as being a martially oriented sort of festival, though I had assumed it would be obvious from the context of talking about our military forces working better together.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Yeah. That way we at least know who the best archers and horsemen and so on among the Peuketii and Messapii are, so we can hire them quickly when we need them.
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You don't hire Peuketii and Messapii, their local governments raise forces for you according to the requirements you've set out.

Simon_Jester said:
Back when the Eretrians were still fighting the natives of the surrounding area regularly, some of them did armor up and fight more or less phalanx-style. However, more or less as historically, the Greeks turned out to be better at the 'block of heavy infantry' game than their opponents, and so the Italiotes lost those battles. They do actually tend to do better by fighting as skirmishers, because the phalanx is vulnerable to such tactics.
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Point of semantic order, Italiote is the term for Greeks in Italy, like Sikeliote is the term for Greeks in Sicily. The term would be italic tribe, but the Messapii and Peuketii are Iapygians, who are expressly not Italic tribes but actually Illyrian transplants who crossed over in the early iron age.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Point of semantic order, Italiote is the term for Greeks in Italy, like Sikeliote is the term for Greeks in Sicily. The term would be italic tribe, but the Messapii and Peuketii are Iapygians, who are expressly not Italic tribes but actually Illyrian transplants who crossed over in the early iron age.
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Man, combine that with our fights with the Liburnians, and Eretria's got a thing for kicking the stuffing out of Illyrians.

IIRC, the Dauni are also Iapygians, right?
 
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Godwinson said:
Yes, I suppose I should have specified the idea as being a martially oriented sort of festival, though I had assumed it would be obvious from the context of talking about our military forces working better together.
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It is a greek inspired festival with athletic games which I think is as martial as it is likely to ever get with greeks unless some very drastic changes happen.
 
Chimeraguard said:
Man, combine that with our fights with the Liburnians, and Eretria's got a thing for kicking the stuffing out of Illyrians.
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Yeah, it's a bit funny how Eretria has almost entirely faced only Illyrians in battle. Hence why Illyrian caps are fashion in the city for some of the poorer citizens, there's obviously going to be some cultural exchange given your relations.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Yeah, it's a bit funny how Eretria has almost entirely faced only Illyrians in battle. Hence why Illyrian caps are fashion in the city for some of the poorer citizens, there's obviously going to be some cultural exchange given your relations.
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After all, wearing the hats of your defeated foes is the finest tradition there is :V

Are you sure we're Greeks and not Orks?
 
Cetashwayo said:
Yeah, it's a bit funny how Eretria has almost entirely faced only Illyrians in battle. Hence why Illyrian caps are fashion in the city for some of the poorer citizens, there's obviously going to be some cultural exchange given your relations.
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I guess that means at some point in the distant future we'll have to make the Liburnians our subjects as well.

Gotta make sure we've caught all the Illyrian Pokemon Tribes.
 
Cetashwayo said:
It's a matter of prejudice. Only Hellenes may fight in the phalanx.
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Fair enough though it seems like a waste of military potential to me. I guess I could argue for them evolving into some elite medium infantry intended to guard the flanks of the phalanx/fight on difficult terrain but that seems to clash with our sacred band and thus more trouble than it is worth.


On a more general note I have to admit I am not the biggest fan of your characterization of Eretria as this massive OC greek state since I find it robs this quest of some of its flavor and isn't really evident in the early parts of the quest either where a lot of the issues you bring up were more due to the limitations of the quest than anything else.
 
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