Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[Erandil]

Saving Kymai will certainly help with our soft-power ambitions, so long as we continue to act in a way that maintains that reputation.

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If we are lucky maybe but I think you underestimate the fact that most of our neighbors/rivals are probably going to be not that happy about us operating outside of our normal, and already large, sphere of influence on basis of some far from universal reasoning of brotherhood and the dangers of barbarians (from a historical perspective at least) and likely adding a very substantial number of people to our ranks. I mean if you are a friend of Eretria that may be great but if you are more focused on your own prestige, independence or maybe even local domination having an neighbor with a tendency to mess in foreign affairs growing ever more powerful and looking ever farther away from its own borders is probably not the most calming development.

 

[Ironanvil1]

Yeah, assuming we can pull off an evacuation of Kymai, it's no doubt going to be an impressive feat, but not necessarily one that will gain us the reputation a lot of backers seem to think it will, Ancient Greeks not being huge on humanitarian interventionism.

 

[Professor Vesca]

Yeah, assuming we can pull off an evacuation of Kymai, it's no doubt going to be an impressive feat, but not necessarily one that will gain us the reputation a lot of backers seem to think it will, Ancient Greeks not being huge on humanitarian interventionism.

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I am not banking on the other Polis being wowed by our great humanitarian ambitions, more on being wowed on us evacuating an entire city from certain doom.

I mean, other than that, why would they care what we are doing in Kymai? Do you think they would stop us from doing our thing?

 

[Skippy]

On a more general note I have to admit I am not the biggest fan of your characterization of Eretria as this massive OC greek state since I find it robs this quest of some of its flavor and isn't really evident in the early parts of the quest either where a lot of the issues you bring up were more due to the limitations of the quest than anything else.

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Every Greek state is special, though. My approach is not that Eretria is super special but that every major Hellene state is special in some way, and Eretria is just special in its own way. Besides, being special and "oc" is part of the draw. I'm not here to write history, I'm here to write alternate history. Players just have a tendency to translate special to "best" and presume supremacy over the rest of the Mediterranean, when Eretria isn't actually the best in a lot of ways beyond just numbers. It isn't the best at women's rights in the Greek world, it isn't the best at culture, it's not the wealthiest, the largest, the most innovative in citizenship, the most technologically advanced if such a classification can exist, etc. Eretria isn't even politically special since its constitutional form is popular in much of the west. There are unique aspects because this is an ancient society simulator, and players should have some opportunity to alter their ancient society.

I don't have time to go into every single Hellene state and how it's special, but obviously those who rise above the rest have some kind of advantages. For all its "specialness", Eretria is still basically a Greek state. The idea of a single "Hellene" culture is a complete falsehood in this period anyway, since the connection was linguistic and different regions followed different Gods and different customs that could vary wildly, with only a few universal icons like worship of Zeus. Some aspects are also not really all that "special" in the sense that Eretria has a monopoly on them, like a better taxation system. That's not something Eretria Eskhata can just keep over its neighbors forever, and part of it is purely taxing the metics. If you gave all your metics citizenship tomorrow you'd lose a third of your tax revenue. Part of the impulse to presume superiority in speciality is just player egotism (in the neutral sense) which can translate into hubris, but I'm fine with that since it's in character anyway.

The only thing I feel is a bit much is the population growth, which I'm going to significantly reduce after this election cycle.

And yes, it wasn't evident in the early quest, because these are retroactive thoughts, though some aspects like Eretria's taxation is something that emerged later anyway.

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Regrettably, although it gives me a heavy heart to do so, I have to agree with @Erandil here. Eretria does feel unreasonably "special".

Sadly though, the problems with @Cetashwayo's worldbuilding do not end there.

Though they're a minor character in the quest at this point, I have grave doubts about this "Roman Republic" I've heard mentioned a lot. Over seven hundred thousand adult male freemen by the end of the third century BCE? Really? That might be reasonable if they were some sort of fractious tribal coalition, but to also have a highly developed concept of Imperium allowing delegation of power, and a strong Republican government? And the ability to create these "Socii", allowing effective assimilation of former enemies?

It's only their relative obscurity which has hidden what an utter Mary Sue OC these "Romans" are, I think.

Also, this "Athens" seems far too big and important, especially given her Black Sea colonies as well as all her Mediterranean holdings. A big mercantile city with a navy might be reasonable, but to also have such a big league of Tributaries? And to be so prominent in literature and philosophy?

Again, this positively reeks of GM favouritism to me. It does not seem at all reasonable for a single Greek city state to have all these advantages.

 

[Simon_Jester]

@Cetashwayo
Just a bit curious how does the common Eretrian feel about the citizen-service and their role in the politics of the city since the granting of minor offices that provides salaries and stipends would enable those individuals to have an income coming from the polis and something independent of the land tilled by either citizen, metic, or serf that would normally be the basis of wealth in an agricultural society.

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As I understand it, granting of minor offices tends to be done "by lot," that is to say, chosen at random. I suspect it's like a fancy way of winning the lottery only you have to work for it and the payoff isn't as good.

Many of these minor offices are basically part-time jobs in the context of an ancient Greek polis; remember that Eretria's population is that of a modest-sized town by modern standards. It's a source of income that isn't land, but then, quite a few citizens do things other than farm the land, and that's true in most Greek city-states. Even if they do own land there's a high likelihood they're renting it out to be farmed by metics.

I am not banking on the other Polis being wowed by our great humanitarian ambitions, more on being wowed on us evacuating an entire city from certain doom.

I mean, other than that, why would they care what we are doing in Kymai? Do you think they would stop us from doing our thing?

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I feel like, if leveraged correctly, it could take us in helpful directions. If Eretria gets a reputation for helping the Italiote Greek cities against the Italic native tribes (see Cetashwayo, I'm learning! ), we can earn closer ties with those cities, especially if they face a rising threat of competition from an increasingly unified Sicily.

So at some future time we might say "so yeah, Thurii, about those problems you've been having with the Brutii." Or "so yeah, Metapontion, about those problems you've been having with the Lucani." It's all a matter of whether we pursue a persistent course of action. This one thing isn't going to change all that much, but how we behave in the future will in turn alter how people retroactively perceive this event, and in the future it may be seen as the beginning of something big (such as the formation of an Italiote League).

 

[Ironanvil1]

I am not banking on the other Polis being wowed by our great humanitarian ambitions, more on being wowed on us evacuating an entire city from certain doom.

I mean, other than that, why would they care what we are doing in Kymai? Do you think they would stop us from doing our thing?

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How would we have reacted had Athens come along out of the blue from the other side of Hellas and evacuated the population of one of the cities we were besieging?
We will be demonstrating a capacity that represents a potential threat to the interests of others.

 

[Erandil]

I mean, other than that, why would they care what we are doing in Kymai? Do you think they would stop us from doing our thing?

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Well if we do the impossible and save the city factions like Rhegion will be angry at us that we preserved one of their mercantile rivals and even if we simply save a large portion of the population they might not like the idea us helping their rivals or profiting from the additional manpower and expertise (like for example contacts and knowledge about profitable western trade routes) they represent, especially if they have their own interests in the Adriatic (or wherever we end up settling the refugees). Then there is the whole "fleet of several thousand men/soldiers" easily being viewed as an threat to any city along the way since with that much manpower a surprise attack on even larger cities could be possible and the people of Kymai may well prefer the Eretrian method of claiming a new city (doubly true if we are talking about one of their rivals like Rhegion).

 

[Professor Vesca]

How would we have reacted had Athens come along out of the blue from the other side of Hellas and evacuated the population of one of the cities we were besieging?
We will be demonstrating a capacity that represents a potential threat to the interests of others.

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A) Neither we nor another hellenic city is besieging Kymai, the Oscans are. So we don't care what the Oscans think.
B) If Athens did this to another city, then they would do it to another city. We would be concerned if they say, dropped a colony or an outpost in the area, but otherwise it would just be another day of Athens doing Athens things.

The thing is, Athens is a major power. Athens DOES have the ability to fight a war on the far side of Italia if they wanted to. We have no such capacity unless we start dropping off outposts or colonies in the region of Kymai. Kymai is only three days from us (not counting supply stops or beaching/making port for the night). In the grand scheme of things, they arent that far away, just far enough that it is beyond our capacity to actually fight a war, but not so far that our ships cannot make it over there and do things.

Well if we do the impossible and save the city factions like Rhegion will be angry at us that we preserved one of their mercantile rivals and even if we simply save a large portion of the population they might not like the idea us helping their rivals or profiting from the additional manpower and expertise (like for example contacts and knowledge about profitable western trade routes) they represent, especially if they have their own interests in the Adriatic (or wherever we end up settling the refugees). Then there is the whole "fleet of several thousand men/soldiers" easily being viewed as an threat to any city along the way since with that much manpower a surprise attack on even larger cities could be possible and the people of Kymai may well prefer the Eretrian method of claiming a new city (doubly true if we are talking about one of their rivals like Rhegion).

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Rhegion is the rival of Kymai because they compete for trade going through the Thyrrenian sea. Why would Rhegion give a shit about the Kymaians if they are transplanted to the head of the Adriatic? Does Rhegion have adriatic colonies and trading posts?

Do you know something about the Adriatic Trading Empire of Rhegion that we do not? You are gonna have to explain this to me. Its like Chalkis still hating us because we used to compete with them over the island of Euboia, and whenever we show up they go:

"So you pricks fucking came back for the island huh? We always knew you could never let it go . . ."

Also we have no designs on cities in the west. We have no ability to take and hold cities in the west, and if we did invade the cities our fleet randomly passed by it would be cause for all the cities who arent on our route to attack us in a punitive war.

We cannot fight all the cities of the western Greeks. They know this. We know this. This would also be part of us warning say Rhegion that our fleet is coming through and what we are up to, and negotiating a place for the refugees to stay while we move them around. Our ships are also likely to travel in a long strung out chain not in a great big fleet. So the number of ships clogging up Rhegions harbor is not likely to be particularly threatening. Not any more threatening than any other trireme or expedition from any other city is likely to be. Remember, this is not an invasion force. We are not moving an entire army. We are grabbing people and moving them around. We don't have to drop off an entire army big enough to hold the beachhead. We just have to keep grabbing people.

 

[Star]

So at some future time we might say "so yeah, Thurii, about those problems you've been having with the Brutii." Or "so yeah, Metapontion, about those problems you've been having with the Lucani." It's all a matter of whether we pursue a persistent course of action. This one thing isn't going to change all that much, but how we behave in the future will in turn alter how people retroactively perceive this event, and in the future it may be seen as the beginning of something big (such as the formation of an Italiote League).

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Evacuating the city and helping him with his barbarian problems are two quite a different things. It is more along the lines, hey you have a problem, well why not just move to other place wich is conveniently in our sphere of influence.
Quite similar to Sparta/Athens situation in which Sparta said that all Greeks from Asia Minor should move to mainland and Athens was " No we will protect our Helen Brothers ".

 

[Nyvis]

As I understand it, granting of minor offices tends to be done "by lot," that is to say, chosen at random. I suspect it's like a fancy way of winning the lottery only you have to work for it and the payoff isn't as good.

Many of these minor offices are basically part-time jobs in the context of an ancient Greek polis; remember that Eretria's population is that of a modest-sized town by modern standards. It's a source of income that isn't land, but then, quite a few citizens do things other than farm the land, and that's true in most Greek city-states. Even if they do own land there's a high likelihood they're renting it out to be farmed by metics.

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Yeah, this is very much not the start of a permanent bureaucracy. Still, it's spreading a lot of skills among the population when they learn it on the job after winning the lottery, and can probably be applied to private ventures once their term end.

 

[Simon_Jester]

How would we have reacted had Athens come along out of the blue from the other side of Hellas and evacuated the population of one of the cities we were besieging?

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You're asking the wrong question.

That's how I expect the Oscans to react to us, sure- but the other Italiote cities aren't besieging Kymai. Even if they expect to profit from the city's downfall, they're not the ones attacking it.

We will be demonstrating a capacity that represents a potential threat to the interests of others.

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The "capacity" in question basically reduces to "can ship grain and hire merchant vessels." These are things any reasonably wealthy polis can do. If Rhegion wanted to do what we're doing for Kymai, they could. They don't care and may actually want Kymai to be gone, so they aren't- but they could. They won't learn anything about us that they didn't already know.

Furthermore, it is overwhelmingly likely that the people of Kymai (what's the adjective for that anyway) will be evacuated to some place in the Adriatic where they, and their activities, are no longer of any real immediate concern to the Italiote city-states.

Nothing we've heard, and no real logic, requires that the Italiotes somehow interpret our being very generous to the beleaguered city of Kymai as some sort of indirect attack on them. They're not going to swoon over our daring and generosity, sure, but they're not going to go "oh this is Eretria plotting to attack us," if nothing else because we're not building any colonies near them or anything, we are removing/i] rivals to an entirely different theater.

 

[ALanos]

Even if they do own land there's a high likelihood they're renting it out to be farmed by metics.

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Funny thing about that is our metics are currently even more of an underclass than other metics in a different polis since Eretria would prefer a taxable populace of peasant non-citizen tenant farmers than allowing slaves to be used in agricultural production and while we do have slave gangs and serfs for the aristocratic estates the fact of the matter is that our system of taxes and revenue relies on a class of a barely represented class of noncitizens that had been born or immigrated to Eretria to pay much more than the poorest of citizen to ensure the city's financial stability.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Evacuating the city and helping him with his barbarian problems are two quite a different things. It is more along the lines, hey you have a problem, well why not just move to other place wich is conveniently in our sphere of influence.

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Yes I know that. My point is that if we can get the various Italiote city-states* thinking of Eretria as a potential source of aid in time of need, that's to our advantage. And that by doing a series of things we may engineer such a result. The rescue of Kymai is one of them.
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*(Which may be starting to feel more and more like they are small and vulnerable in a dangerous world that includes threats like the growing strength of the Italics and the ongoing Peloponnesian War and the rise of Sicily)

 

[Professor Vesca]

You're asking the wrong question.

That's how I expect the Oscans to react to us, sure- but the other Italiote cities aren't besieging Kymai. Even if they expect to profit from the city's downfall, they're not the ones attacking it.

The "capacity" in question basically reduces to "can ship grain and hire merchant vessels." These are things any reasonably wealthy polis can do. If Rhegion wanted to do what we're doing for Kymai, they could. They don't care and may actually want Kymai to be gone, so they aren't- but they could. They won't learn anything about us that they didn't already know.

Furthermore, it is overwhelmingly likely that the people of Kymai (what's the adjective for that anyway) will be evacuated to some place in the Adriatic where they, and their activities, are no longer of any real immediate concern to the Italiote city-states.

Nothing we've heard, and no real logic, requires that the Italiotes somehow interpret our being very generous to the beleaguered city of Kymai as some sort of indirect attack on them. They're not going to swoon over our daring and generosity, sure, but they're not going to go "oh this is Eretria plotting to attack us," if nothing else because we're not building any colonies near them or anything, we are removing/i] rivals to an entirely different theater.

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Also the mechanics of the evacuation is more likely going to shake out to be 'A ship shows up every few weeks for another load of people and then makes its way back down along the coast'.

So there is likely to be refugees and crew filtering through the various ports of the toe every few days or so. It is unlikely that a big fleet of ships traveling in a giant mass is feasible for us logistically.

 

[racnor]

To partially contradict my previous post about uniqueness being good, I must admit that I find arguments based on needing to be MORE unique equally annoying. It always just feels meta-gamey.

 

[Simon_Jester]

What I think is best, is to have a system with some unique features, and then to make further decisions based on how we can capitalize on those unique features.

It's not just about tacking on more and more unique features, it's about making the ones we have be consequential.

 

[Cetashwayo]

If the state has too many unique features it starts to get ridiculous especially given cultural and political commonality. Eretria Eskhata still has a lot in common with other Hellene states. Stuff like local cults is fine but Eretria isn't really making up entire new Gods and Goddesses besides minor figures like Numisnia who aren't very important. It has the same language and many of the same fashions, and speaks the same political language of arete and kleos. Ekdromoi are more lightly equipped but they are not a wild deviation, just a bit ahead in time. Sacred bands are not unique to Eretria: Carthage has one, Thebai has one.

I enjoy balancing out commonality and uniqueness. It has been a while since the original quest and Eretria is a member of a wider Mediterranean community of states with immigration from across the Greek World. It imports Athenian pottery and Etruscan metalwork and exports its own handiworks. It is not an isolate alone against the world.

 

[Nyvis]

I really like that mix of unique approaches and traditional Greek ones. It gives the sense that we have an identity, while being part of the whole, which is great.

 

[Cetashwayo]

IMO the single biggest divergence is the lack of slavery. But this was a decision players made first game and I ran with it because it has interesting implications economically. I have tried my best to make the replacement somewhat plausible and intriguing rather than 'well we don't have slaves so we are fine and also awesome'. It is a fun thought experiment to think about.

 

[Deadly Snark]

I think it worked so far. Certainly Eretria doesn't make me hate its world building like say Dorne does.

 

[Erandil]

Rhegion is the rival of Kymai because they compete for trade going through the Thyrrenian sea. Why would Rhegion give a shit about the Kymaians if they are transplanted to the head of the Adriatic? Does Rhegion have adriatic colonies and trading posts?

Do you know something about the Adriatic Trading Empire of Rhegion that we do not? You are gonna have to explain this to me. Its like Chalkis still hating us because we used to compete with them over the island of Euboia, and whenever we show up they go:

"So you pricks fucking came back for the island huh? We always knew you could never let it go . . ."

Also we have no designs on cities in the west. We have no ability to take and hold cities in the west, and if we did invade the cities our fleet randomly passed by it would be cause for all the cities who arent on our route to attack us in a punitive war.

We cannot fight all the cities of the western Greeks. They know this. We know this. This would also be part of us warning say Rhegion that our fleet is coming through and what we are up to, and negotiating a place for the refugees to stay while we move them around. Our ships are also likely to travel in a long strung out chain not in a great big fleet. So the number of ships clogging up Rhegions harbor is not likely to be particularly threatening. Not any more threatening than any other trireme or expedition from any other city is likely to be. Remember, this is not an invasion force. We are not moving an entire army. We are grabbing people and moving them around. We don't have to drop off an entire army big enough to hold the beachhead. We just have to keep grabbing people.

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My argument wasn't that Rhegion would care too much about the Adriatic stuff and more that Rhegion would care about us helping their rival and perhaps snagging knowledge of routes and contacts in the Thyrrenian sea that they might not want other naval powers to possess (even if their control of the strait would make it difficult for our traders to compete with theirs) and that other factions closer to us like for example Taras, Kerkyra or others having an interest in the region or allied with those having such an interest would care about us setting up a large new colony. Plus of course those factions who simply don't want to see us grow more powerful than we already are.

And I think you seriously overestimate the cohesiveness of the western greeks here and how they would react to us attacking one of the cities there. They are as riven by rivalry and competition as the rest of Greece and it is far from unthinkable that for example we could decide to conquer Lokri Expiphyrii and with the right diplomatic preparation and promises I doubt that cities like Thurii or even Rhegion would be that unhappy about losing one of their rivals and getting them replaced with a weaken city that may well fall under their influence.

And if we really want to move large groups of people out of the city I doubt we will be able to avoid using convoys, especially since it would be sensible to use our fleet to protect our ships during the rather long and perilous journey and the moment we even think about using our tiremes we are practically forced send a sizeable marine contingent with them to guard our ships when we beach them as is common practice.

 

[Skippy]

How would we have reacted had Athens come along out of the blue from the other side of Hellas and evacuated the population of one of the cities we were besieging?
We will be demonstrating a capacity that represents a potential threat to the interests of others.

Click to shrink...

Rescuing Kymai is absolutely a demonstration of immense seapower, diplomatic ability, and more than that, the sheer front to go in front of the Oscans and literally steal the kill from the hungry lions as they watch impotently. Honestly, if successful in some ways it would actually be more of a demonstration of raw strength and confidence than our war with Taras.

That is a very good argument in favour of doing it, as far as I'm concerned. As you said, our fellow Italiote Greeks may not be hugely moved by humanitarian concerns. But they will absolutely be impressed by a display of strength.

Another important point is that it is still consistent with all our principles. We are acting to aid others. We are dealing fairly and honestly. We are not a conqueror, and have no desire to become one.

 

[McLuvin]

Rescuing Kymai is absolutely a demonstration of immense seapower, diplomatic ability, and more than that, the sheer front to go in front of the Oscans and literally steal the kill from the hungry lions as they watch impotently. Honestly, if successful in some ways it would actually be more of a demonstration of raw strength and confidence than our war with Taras.

That is a very good argument in favour of doing it, as far as I'm concerned. As you said, our fellow Italiote Greeks may not be hugely moved by humanitarian concerns. But they will absolutely be impressed by a display of strength.

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And most people are also talking about massively expanding our Fleet. Some have proposed around 50 ships.

Take into account our Marines, Rowers, Captains and Ships are qualitatively superior to a majority of Greek states, and the fact the next closest Fleet in Italy and Sicily is 35 in Number. As well as the fact Kymai brings around 10 or so ships with decent Naval traditions and our colonies are switching to a Naval focus for supplying us in war.

What I'm saying is, we're on the road to becoming the Western Athens, and saving Kymai is the opening move that really helps hammer home how powerful we are at sea.

We saved an entire city with around a third of the ships we'll have available in a decade or so, imagine what we could do with those ships if we decided to destroy a city instead?

 

[Erandil]

I mean if you transport any large number of people in ancient times frequent landings are practically unavoidable. A trade ship with a small crew might carry enough resources to stay at sea for a prolonged period of time ( and even they will almsot cettainly prefer to anchor near the shore overnight or even sleep on land when possible) but I very much doubt that the same holds true of ships as full of people as those we will need to evacuate any real number of people from the city. With so many people frequent stops to do stuff like gather fresh water and cook are practiallcy impossible to avoid in this time. And since a lot of coastline is in non-friemdly hands who will likely gave nothing against trying to enslave the refugees and rob them of their possessions (because you can be sure that the people fleeing the city will try take as much of their valuables with as they can) I would argue avoiding sending escorts is practically impossible. And frequent stops are even less avoidable for fully manned tiremes. Sure you can attempt to do it if absolutely necessary but people geberalky try to avoid it when they can.

 

[DeAnno]

Honestly, if successful in some ways it would actually be more of a demonstration of raw strength and confidence than our war with Taras.

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Honestly I think this is kind of a terrible argument. If we want to demonstrate our strength and confidence there are a bunch of more practical things we could do closer to home (like beating up the Dauni) that also have more tangible benefits to our wealth and security while not compromising us against dangers from those same vectors.