Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[Cetashwayo]

Given that players just chose to establish permanent communications through proxenoi in the Italiote cities, what on earth makes you think they wouldn't be well-briefed ahead of time of Eretrian intentions?

 

[Skippy]

One of the explicit mission parameters (and something Arktos also had in his motion) was to get the cooperation or at least the assent of Rhegion. That is absolutely essential or we cannot proceed. Given a fleet of cargo ships moving thousands of people and some soldiers escorted by triremes looks an awful lot like an invasion fleet, we will probably want to tell every city along our route of our intentions.

Honestly, the planning and logistics for an operation like this will take months. We have to feed these people whilst they're at sea, which means probably establishing supply caches along the coast, or having more ships to ship a constant stream of supplies in-transit. It's going to be a big diplomatic as well as naval operation.

 

[Simon_Jester]

My argument wasn't that Rhegion would care too much about the Adriatic stuff and more that Rhegion would care about us helping their rival...

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The thing is, we are "helping their rival" in a way that doesn't actually hurt them, because their rival still vanishes into a puff of smoke and is never seen again.

It's a mistake to imagine Rhegion as 'hating Kymai' in the sense that they actively want every citizen of Kymai to die. They're business rivals, not sworn enemies. They're not going to snarl at us with hatred for decades because thanks to us the Kymai refugees aren't dead.

If in the process of "helping" Kymai we evacuate Kymai and the city is overrun by Oscans who have no interest in competing with Rhegion, Rhegion wins. Sure, some Eretrian traders may gain a bit more navigational knowledge of the Tyrrhenian Sea and make some money in that body of water, but no realistic level of Eretrian trading activity in the Tyrrhenian Sea can ever be a threat to Rhegion's primacy in that sea. It can never hurt them anywhere near as much as the relocation/fall of Kymai helps them.

It's like, the Greek city-states generally don't love each other and will let each other fall without lifting a finger. This does not equate to them holding some kind of lasting grudge against anyone else who dares to help another Greek city-state.

And if we really want to move large groups of people out of the city I doubt we will be able to avoid using convoys, especially since it would be sensible to use our fleet to protect our ships during the rather long and perilous journey and the moment we even think about using our tiremes we are practically forced send a sizeable marine contingent with them to guard our ships when we beach them as is common practice.

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I mean, convoys, probably- but big fleets, not so much. If nothing else that's hard to organize and means that the number of people who might be killed by a single storm goes way up.

Honestly I think this is kind of a terrible argument. If we want to demonstrate our strength and confidence there are a bunch of more practical things we could do closer to home (like beating up the Dauni) that also have more tangible benefits to our wealth and security while not compromising us against dangers from those same vectors.

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It would be a demonstration of naval strength that is (and this part is important) visible to the Italiote Greeks.

If we conquer the Dauni, they won't see it happen. If we solidify our rule among the Messapii, they won't really see that happen either. Even our more maritime options like "colonize proto-Venice" or "extend our colonies on the east coast of the Adriatic" are out of sight and out of mind for them. Remember that it's not for nothing that they don't even really think of us as being part of the same geographic region as them.

If we want to largely avoid engagement with the rest of Italy, while building up a power base centered on the Iapyges and the Adriatic trade, then yes, not rescuing Kymai will further that isolation.

If we want to engage with the rest of Italy, then rescuing Kymai is a good way to demonstrate our strength without making enemies- a display of what our stat system calls Magnificence.

Personally, I don't think we really have the option of not engaging with the rest of Italy. Not in the long run.

 

[Chehrazad]

Honestly I think this is kind of a terrible argument. If we want to demonstrate our strength and confidence there are a bunch of more practical things we could do closer to home (like beating up the Dauni) that also have more tangible benefits to our wealth and security while not compromising us against dangers from those same vectors.

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The thing about choosing something impractical - and I agree, saving Kymai is impractical - is that impractical situations require proportionally greater ability than the practical ones. It is impractical to save Kymai, it is hard to organize and plan such an action, it will come with massive challenges, it will test our naval skill. That is why we must do it. Beating up the Dauni is something colonial Hellenes do. Occasionally triumphing against interior barbaroi is something colonial Hellenes do and have to, it is absolutely impressive when it happens and when such victories come, but this is not that.

The King of Kings sent a fleet westwards, it numbered in seven hundred ships crewed by his Phoenician subjects, so skilled were they that they could form bridges to cross water and let soldiers pass. This danger forced Eretria to flee even further west, landing upon the storied shores of Italia, and what did we do? We prospered, thrived, triumphed against all odds. Our story began with our skills at sea. This is not just beating up barbaroi of the interior, this is demonstrating that those skills are now capable of saving others, it is showing to every single Hellene observer exactly how skilled the navy of Eretrian Eskhata has become.

That will be challenging, you're right. That's why we should do it. Because the greatest challenges are the most impressive.

 

[Professor Vesca]

My argument wasn't that Rhegion would care too much about the Adriatic stuff and more that Rhegion would care about us helping their rival and perhaps snagging knowledge of routes and contacts in the Thyrrenian sea that they might not want other naval powers to possess (even if their control of the strait would make it difficult for our traders to compete with theirs) and that other factions closer to us like for example Taras, Kerkyra or others having an interest in the region or allied with those having such an interest would care about us setting up a large new colony. Plus of course those factions who simply don't want to see us grow more powerful than we already are.

And I think you seriously overestimate the cohesiveness of the western greeks here and how they would react to us attacking one of the cities there. They are as riven by rivalry and competition as the rest of Greece and it is far from unthinkable that for example we could decide to conquer Lokri Expiphyrii and with the right diplomatic preparation and promises I doubt that cities like Thurii or even Rhegion would be that unhappy about losing one of their rivals and getting them replaced with a weaken city that may well fall under their influence.

And if we really want to move large groups of people out of the city I doubt we will be able to avoid using convoys, especially since it would be sensible to use our fleet to protect our ships during the rather long and perilous journey and the moment we even think about using our tiremes we are practically forced send a sizeable marine contingent with them to guard our ships when we beach them as is common practice.

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Look.

Rhegion is a rival of Kymai for a reason. They didn't just pick Kymai out of all their neighbors. Kymai and Rhegion compete for the same resource, trade in the Tyrhhenian sea. Therefore, they are rivals.

The Oscans starving out Kymai, or breaking into their city and killing them all, amounts to the same result as far as Rhegion is concerned. They now get all that trade that previously went to Kymai, and become rich for it. If we come over and evacuate the citizens and plop them down in the Adriatic, the result as far as Rhegion is concerned, is the same. They still get Kymai's trade. They still profit off of the fall of the city. Whether the citizens of Kymai live or die is immaterial to Rhegion. They dont have a blood oath of vengeance, they wanted something that Kymai was competing with them over, and now they have it.

Whatever happens to Kymai once they have what they want, is not their problem. They don't care. Why would they care? Because we saved the citizens of Kymai from death?

What purpose would the city of Rhegion have to wish for Kymais death specifically?

This isn't EU4. People have goals and agendas and are more interested in achieving their goals and agendas than they are in 'specifically' 'literally' killing off their rivals. They won't help them to be sure, but they have no horse in this race beyond seeing the trade of Kymai flow into their city instead.

Like, if the Liburnians werent pirates, do you think we would have any interest in colonising the Dodecanese?

 

[DeAnno]

Personally, I don't think we really have the option of not engaging with the rest of Italy. Not in the long run.

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That will be challenging, you're right. That's why we should do it. Because the greatest challenges are the most impressive.

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I feel like there's an attitude that Eretria is going to eventually inevitably become the primary power in Italia, and that everything we do must flow to and from that conclusion. But that's a hard road, and the sorts of risks it requires taking are higher. Challenging tasks are tasks you can fail. For the citizens of Eretria Eschata, this is not some hopped up training simulation, they are gambling with their prosperity and their security. Sure, accomplishing far flung tasks is good for your reputation, if you succeed. It's not so good if you fail, it looks like foolishness and weakness.

You don't always have to take every risky chance at glory that comes up; good arguments for taking risks are when you have no other choice, or you think the payoffs are worth the gamble. Here, we have every excuse to ignore the situation, militarily and politically, and the possible payoffs are mostly flimsy ideas rather than hard gains. I believe it's a misuse of Eretria's resources and manpower that could better be spent on more reasonable ventures.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I feel like there's an attitude that Eretria is going to eventually inevitably become the primary power in Italia, and that everything we do must flow to and from that conclusion..

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Well, we have a pretty good idea of what happens if nobody becomes a primary power in Italia and unites the Italiote Greeks.

First the Sicilians unite, one way or another, and turn any part of the Central Mediterranean not held by Carthage into their chew-toy. Then eventually the Romans roll over everybody.

And yeah, we could butterfly that history pretty dramatically, but the basic dynamic remains. This part of the world isn't going to remain tenable for isolated city-states indefinitely. Becoming more bulked-up as a city-state will only counterbalance that trend for a little while.

So if having Eretria make a lasting impact on the world and preserving its institutions are priorities for the quest- and for many of us they are- then we need to do something that engages us with the Italiote Greeks and gives us a basis for coordination and consolidation. Conquest and annexation aren't in the cards, but that's not the only way to approach this, and saving Kymai offers us another path.

 

[Erandil]

Look.

Rhegion is a rival of Kymai for a reason. They didn't just pick Kymai out of all their neighbors. Kymai and Rhegion compete for the same resource, trade in the Tyrhhenian sea. Therefore, they are rivals.

The Oscans starving out Kymai, or breaking into their city and killing them all, amounts to the same result as far as Rhegion is concerned. They now get all that trade that previously went to Kymai, and become rich for it. If we come over and evacuate the citizens and plop them down in the Adriatic, the result as far as Rhegion is concerned, is the same. They still get Kymai's trade. They still profit off of the fall of the city. Whether the citizens of Kymai live or die is immaterial to Rhegion. They dont have a blood oath of vengeance, they wanted something that Kymai was competing with them over, and now they have it.

Whatever happens to Kymai once they have what they want, is not their problem. They don't care. Why would they care? Because we saved the citizens of Kymai from death?

What purpose would the city of Rhegion have to wish for Kymais death specifically?

This isn't EU4. People have goals and agendas and are more interested in achieving their goals and agendas than they are in 'specifically' 'literally' killing off their rivals. They won't help them to be sure, but they have no horse in this race beyond seeing the trade of Kymai flow into their city instead.

Like, if the Liburnians werent pirates, do you think we would have any interest in colonising the Dodecanese?

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They clearly do care because past grievances, commercial interests and sheer pettiness as well as simple greed aside and the GM himself stated that one of the things required for this whole thing to work was successfully convincing Rhegion and others to let our ships and tge refugees pass...

And I don't really understand the Issa question because yeah I am pretty sure we wpuld have wanted to set up a colony there even without the massive pirate threat. Even wothout pirates it would have made a great mercantile and naval base from which we could exploit the local trade and strengthen our position in the Adriatic overall. There is a reason why it already hosts one trading outpost..

 

[Cetashwayo]

I think people on both sides are somewhat overdoing the magnitude of the expedition. Although moving 7,500 people is definitely impressive it's not without precedent. The Athenians were willing to move far more to the west before the Battle of Salamis and used it as a very real threat against the Hellene coalition; that they would straight up abandon them and leave with their entire fleet. The women, children, and old men of Kymai can be hosted at some city along the way (as a coincidence Obander just recently visited the city of Hyele on the Lucanian coast that might be willing to take them). The men can be enlisted to help with sailing and rowing.

Nor is the point of the expedition to significantly risk large portions of Eretria's fleet, except in terms of the danger of a storm (though staying close to shore is imperative and will prevent that). Eretria would leverage its prior diplomatic work and ensure that they can work with the Italiotes.

There's a reason this takes up only one diplomatic slot for the next election cycle, not two or three. Eretria doing this would be surprising, but not shocking, as the Korinthians were known to maintain strong ties with their own colonies, and when the people of Syrakousai begged Korinthos to send them a man of quality in the mid-4th century BCE, they sent Syrakousai Timoleon, who promptly resuscitated Greek Sicily. Bonds and ties of mother cities and their founded colonies can be quite strong even if it doesn't usually translate politically.

Nor are the Greeks absolutely cruel and merciless people. It is one thing to shrug your shoulders and allow a city to fall because of the risk. It is quite another to prevent someone else from saving the city, if that saving does nothing but directly benefit you. When Sparta suffered an earthquake that significantly weakened it in 464 BCE, many Greek states sent help and aid against the uprising helots and for terrible losses suffered by the Spartans. When Athenai fell at the end of the Peloponnesian War, the Spartans left the city standing even though Korinthos and Thebai wanted it sacked. When Rhodes suffered an earthquake during the Hellenistic period, many states sent them aid and assistance and promised to help rebuild.

All of this has pragmatic elements. Sparta was still a hegemon and none of the other Hellenes necessarily wanted a power vacuum to emerge. Sparta may have feared that if it destroyed Athenai it would have strengthened Korinthos and Thebai too much, and that the Athenians were a spent force. Rhodes was a maritime center and trading power in the Eastern Mediterranean that was also not directly threatening to the great Successor kingdoms, and so they didn't suffer any danger it helping it back on its feet. But the same is with Kymai; there's obviously a practical element in making what are 7,500 or more people who are useless to you into potentially loyal league members somewhere in the Adriatic. It's an impressive feat which can be spun both at home and abroad and strengthen the ties of the league. It can show the Italiotes the magnanimity and naval ability of Eretria without directly threatening them, just as Thermopylae, despite being a Spartan defeat, was spun into an amazing awesome legend that was proof of Spartan effectiveness in war.

Now, at the same time, it'll be expensive and could fail in whole (if Rhegion doesn't agree) or in part (if you aren't able to save that amount or you fail to convince the people of Kymai until it's too late and you only save some). But it's not pointless to do or completely crazy.

 

[McLuvin]

I think it's very notable that no mainland Italian power can stand up to us outside of coalitions of Three or so cities, Taras, and even then, that excludes our allies like Thurii.

And this is before we factor in that Eretria is growing faster then all of them due to their immigration policy, starting up a mass colonial drive, finally gaining control of all the Iapgyians and Adriatic trade as well as the fact we're planning to expand our fleet by an enormous amount.

It's not inevitable, that is 100% true. But it's also 100% true that the Italiote League was created because they realised we had the ability to one day force them into unification under us. It's also 100% true that Metopontion forged itself into a diplomatically focussed city specifically to counterbalance us and Taras so neither could come to dominate all of Greek Italia.

It's not inevitable, but if we work at it and continues to grow at such a pace? It's very likely.

 

[Cetashwayo]

And this is before we factor in that Eretria is growing faster then all of them due to their immigration policy, starting up a mass colonial drive, finally gaining control of all the Iapgyians and Adriatic trade as well as the fact we're planning to expand our fleet by an enormous amount.

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Eretria is not the only fast-growing state in Italia. Thurii, Taras and Rhegion are all growing rapidly while Krotone, Lokri and Metapontion are growing far more slowly.

 

[McLuvin]

Eretria is not the only fast-growing state in Italia. Thurii, Taras and Rhegion are all growing rapidly while Krotone, Lokri and Metapontion are growing far more slowly.

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Ah, but we are growing faster then them, or at least we have been for the last couple of turns, and it's been mentioned that Eretria's ability to grow via immigration makes it faster growing than other states, and is so far mostly unique in its methodology

 

[gutza1]

... Honestly, I find it impressive that a month-old quest is already almost 200 pages long.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Ah, but we are growing faster then them, or at least we have been for the last couple of turns, and it's been mentioned that Eretria's ability to grow via immigration makes it faster growing than other states, and is so far mostly unique in its methodology

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It's ALSO been mentioned that this is likely to taper off a bit in the future.

 

[McLuvin]

... Honestly, I find it impressive that a month-old quest is already almost 200 pages long.

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I mean, technically it's 2 Years old and this is just the third thread.

It's ALSO been mentioned that this is likely to taper off a bit in the future.

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Eretria OP plz nerf.

 

[Karugus]

Eretria is not the only fast-growing state in Italia. Thurii, Taras and Rhegion are all growing rapidly while Krotone, Lokri and Metapontion are growing far more slowly.

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In fairness, it seems like the other fast growing Italiotes are really expanding their power in one of the two big means available to Eretria right now. Rhegion has the straits of Messana and is likely going to exert greater influence in the Tyrrhennian Sea in the future. The Thurii don't quite have that luxury but could potentially make inroads against their greek neighbors or the Brutii tribes. Taras has the fabulous Gulf of Taranto but has no room to expand it's actual control over land.

All of these are surrounded by nominal peers or major threats whereas by all appearances Eretria has a freer hand to act as it chooses than it has since it's founding. At the risk of hubris it's kinda hard not to assume we'll be able to leverage our growth better than they can.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Ah, but we are growing faster then them, or at least we have been for the last couple of turns, and it's been mentioned that Eretria's ability to grow via immigration makes it faster growing than other states, and is so far mostly unique in its methodology

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Said ability to grow is also reliant on an influx of oppressed metics, which makes it problematic in the long term. Even the Adriatic Colony plan is going to work for only so long.

 

[Cetashwayo]

Ah, but we are growing faster then them, or at least we have been for the last couple of turns, and it's been mentioned that Eretria's ability to grow via immigration makes it faster growing than other states, and is so far mostly unique in its methodology

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Yes, but I'm going to be significantly curtailing it. The growth rate is insanely high for a mature state and means Eretria is able to outpace its rivals within a decade or two by pure virtue of insane pop growth. It'll still be high, but more reasonable, and not entirely dissimilar to Taras and Thurii, at least for now.

The pop growth is a bit of an artifact of the first and second games where Eretria was still actively seizing territory. Now it makes far more sense for Eretria to grow at a more reasonable rate of 3-6% (with immigration choices choosing where in that range). Most of the really crazy pop growth will be in the colonies. To be fair, and to ensure that Eretria isn't suddenly nerfed, I'll let it grow with the inflated pop growth rate this cycle (meaning a 9% growth from last census), but I'll lower it from then on and keep the pop growth with the allies and the colonies, because what the current growth means is that

1. Eretria can replace any loss of revenue from any choice people make by next census even if it's a big loss because of how much higher taxation becomes
2. Trade is devalued because Eretria has an ever-growing amount of revenue from taxation
3. Eretria rapidly and unrealistically surpasses all of its rivals
4. It would mean that if Eretria were growing at a rate of 10% per census, within forty years Eretria would have grown in core population, not allies, just core population, by a factor of 2.59. Which means that Eretria would have the same amount of freemen as Athenai at the start of the Peloponnesian War by 391 BCE only through immigration and natural increase.
5. Eretria can easily replace losses from war without any effort

Now obviously that's more than a little crazy. It would mean I also have to buff Eretria's neighbors (raising the question of where all these immigrants are coming from) to keep up or Eretria would then hopelessly surpass all of its neighbors, but not by any kind of intelligent decisions, good institutions, or strong allies, but merely because number go up.

In fairness, it seems like the other fast growing Italiotes are really expanding their power in one of the two big means available to Eretria right now. Rhegion has the straits of Messana and is likely going to exert greater influence in the Tyrrhennian Sea in the future. The Thurii don't quite have that luxury but could potentially make inroads against their greek neighbors or the Brutii tribes. Taras has the fabulous Gulf of Taranto but has no room to expand it's actual control over land.

All of these are surrounded by nominal peers or major threats whereas by all appearances Eretria has a freer hand to act as it chooses than it has since it's founding. At the risk of hubris it's kinda hard not to assume we'll be able to leverage our growth better than they can.

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That's true. Eretria's in a good position. But as I mentioned above I am going to be cutting down the "rapid pop growth" part of that position in order to prevent what is a good position from becoming insurmountable immigrant magic. I mean, most mature states in the pre-modern period during times of peace grow by like .25-1% population per year, and then they can lose much more than that in a war. I think 3-6% over four years is more reasonable for a state which is filling out the hinterland and now shifting some of the immigration over to the colonies, while still leaving an upper bound (6%) that's well above the norm. At best, Eretria's main competitors who are fast-growing states will keep pace with Eretria, but due to their smaller populations will thus always be behind unless they conquer more territory.

Which is to say I've confiscated @Ironanvil1's potato factory and there will be no more industrial era population growth in Eretria

 

[afterthought53]

That sounds reasonable, especially as we move our growth focus to the Epulian League Colonies. This will complicate the numbers for you though as I expect we'll see a surge in Tribute/Hoplites/Triremes from the Epulian League and its expanding number of cities.

 

[McLuvin]

Which is to say I've confiscated @Ironanvil1's potato factory

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You took away someone's potatoes?

As an Englishman, I can tell you that's not recommended

 

[afterthought53]

Although regarding the growth rate, I would still expect Eretria to outpace its rivals due to the greater prestige (We just beat Taras in a war, then humbled the Liburni, and now are evacuating Kymai), more available land in our colonies, and greater wealth generation due to our Adriatic Sphere.

 

[Erandil]

All of these are surrounded by nominal peers or major threats whereas by all appearances Eretria has a freer hand to act as it chooses than it has since it's founding. At the risk of hubris it's kinda hard not to assume we'll be able to leverage our growth better than they can.

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You mean provided the Samnites, who btw have moved towards our border, or the Luccani don't try to make us into Campania v2, Kerkyra, Korinth and other Greeks don't try to oppose us to strongly in the Adriatic, and we avoid getting into a bloody and exhausting conflict with the Dauni, Gauls/Gallic people, Illyrian tribes or our Greek neighbors and avoid any kind of conflict within our league/polis... And keep in mind even with our manpower a single large loss could set us back a decade or more and stop our expansion indefinitely.

 

[Cetashwayo]

That sounds reasonable, especially as we move our growth focus to the Epulian League Colonies. This will complicate the numbers for you though as I expect we'll see a surge in Tribute/Hoplites/Triremes from the Epulian League and its expanding number of cities.

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It's not really hard. I calculate everything in an excel sheet that looks like this.

Although regarding the growth rate, I would still expect Eretria to outpace its rivals due to the greater prestige (We just beat Taras in a war, then humbled the Liburni, and now are evacuating Kymai), more available land in our colonies, and greater wealth generation due to our Adriatic Sphere.

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As you can tell from the spreadsheet the growth of every colony, ally, and tributary is counted separately.

 

[Karugus]

That's true. Eretria's in a good position. But as I mentioned above I am going to be cutting down the "rapid pop growth" part of that position in order to prevent what is a good position from becoming insurmountable immigrant magic. I mean, most mature states during times of peace grow by like .25-1% population per year, and then they can lose much more than that in a war. I think 3-6% over four years is more reasonable for a state which is filling out the hinterland and now shifting some of the immigration over to the colonies, while still leaving an upper bound (6%) that's well above the norm.

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Speaking of immigration magic, now that we're well and truly starting to claim the Adriatic- how would outsiders potentially wanting to found a colony in the region work in say a decade or two work? Say Taras for instance, has grown wealthy and powerful off of trade but is becoming overpopulated due to lack of room for expansion- would offering them the right to establish Adriatic colonies (possibly as members of the Epulian League) be on the table? How unpalatable would it be for the mother polis to allow another such political control over their colonies? How unpalatable would it be for Eretria to tolerate other Greeks to colonize their area, even if it's nominally with their blessing? It seems like a potential way to help tie Taras closer to us as an ally and major trade partner without risking the loss of control that having them in the league right now would bring.

Could we use the security offered by the Epulian League as part of our advertisements in Hellas for immigrants? Where rather than being sent to Eretria to become metics, and likely planning to leave to the colonies anyways we cut out the middle men and promise a lot of people citizenship while offering security and profitable work in our colonies? To my limited perspective that seems a far superior offer than the one we've been making so far.

 

[Cetashwayo]

Say Taras for instance, has grown wealthy and powerful off of trade but is becoming overpopulated due to lack of room for expansion- would offering them the right to establish Adriatic colonies (possibly as members of the Epulian League) be on the table? How unpalatable would it be for the mother polis to allow another such political control over their colonies? How unpalatable would it be for Eretria to tolerate other Greeks to colonize their area, even if it's nominally with their blessing? It seems like a potential way to help tie Taras closer to us as an ally and major trade partner without risking the loss of control that having them in the league right now would bring.

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Generally the way old-style colonies work is that those colonies are gathered up by groups of people within the old polis who then go off and found a colony. The new colonists don't have citizenship in their mother city though they may keep ties unless the colony was founded by exiles (and even then, Taras was founded presumably by Spartan exiles but there's no ill-will there). There's no central control involved. This is the formal process which emerges in the 6th and 5th centuries BCE, and earlier it was even more ad hoc without organizing a bunch of people. That being said, colonies create commercial networks with their mother city, and so allowing Taras into the Adriatic through that backdoor is more than a little dangerous. Tarentines leaving to some of the colonies themselves is another story.

Could we use the security offered by the Epulian League as part of our advertisements in Hellas for immigrants? Where rather than being sent to Eretria to become metics, and likely planning to leave to the colonies anyways we cut out the middle men and promise a lot of people citizenship while offering security and profitable work in our colonies? To my limited perspective that seems a far superior offer than the one we've been making so far.

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Word spreads fast. When people hear you can go become a citizen in an Epulian League colony in the Adriatic and get a parcel of land and political rights many will chomp at bit to grab the offer. Hellas has no shortage of disenfranchised, poor, or struggling urban and rural people, and the Greeks are among the first great mass migrators in European history, often moving in spectacular waves. Dionysius I and II managed to get 60,000 Greeks to come and repopulate Sicily, Timoleon did the same, and hundreds of thousands of Greeks emigrated to the east in the first century after Alexander.

However, that will take some time to filter out. Eretria's "agents" are literally people who go stand in a city square and say hey bud, tell your friends there's work in Eretria. Usually they can act on longstanding immigrant networks, and have a few favored haunts, like Akhaia, Euboea, Khalkidike and Krete, because people already know about Eretria there and are more interested.