If this was, we'd have already taken out a few dozen loans to hire out a mercenary swarm of apocalyptic proportions, conquered Italy, and would be trying all sorts of incredibly silly shenanigans to try and diplo-annex Athens or something.

'Tis a silly game. A fun game, but it gets pretty ridiculous sometimes.

I'VE FOUND A SOLUTION TO THE DECREASING POPULATION GROWTH BOIS
"Greetings, strangers. I do not believe we have greeted people of your nation before. From what port do you hail?"
"Thank you for joining the Epulian League! We're very glad to have you."
"Wait what"
"Here's a rock as a symbol of our friendship and a census form for you to fill out."
"Absolutely not– hang on, a census form?"
"THE GODS DEMAND TRIBUTE"
 
"Greetings, strangers. I do not believe we have greeted people of your nation before. From what port do you hail?"
"Thank you for joining the Epulian League! We're very glad to have you."
"Wait what"
"Here's a rock as a symbol of our friendship and a census form for you to fill out."
"Absolutely not– hang on, a census form?"
"THE GODS DEMAND TRIBUTE"
"Oh, also! Here, have a weasel."
 
The colony founded by those citizens of Kymai who would be saved by a miracle of the Eretrian navy would be best named after the man who gave that same navy its first miracle in the Battle of Fifty Masts. I would whole hardheartedly advise these founders to call their new home Eusebion, in honor of that man blessed by the gods who once saved Eretria and laid the foundation stones of its mighty navy. Such a name would bring together the past and the present of Eretria and Kymai in a grand union towards a better future.
 
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In all seriousness, our population growth beginning to slow down a bit now makes total sense.

For one thing, we conquered a decent little strip of good coastal land, but it's been thirty five years of prosperity and immigration. Rents on plots of land will naturally go up as our population increases and farms have developed. For another, and relating to the first, there's the colonial citizenship programme. Suddenly there's a release valve on the growth of our Metic population, as there is both cheap land and lower taxes around the Adriatic, for those enterprising enough to be colonists.

Honestly, I'm not sure people fully appreciate what an utter masterstroke this was on Linos' part. Suddenly, we have an attractive offer which not only improves our own people's situation and resolves a pressing social issue, but can be a massive draw around all of Greece, at a time of mass refugee movements and depopulation due to war. Moving from your ravaged city to do wage labour in Eretria is one thing, but getting your own small farm in a prosperous and safe Adriatic town? That's an incredibly good offer.

The Epulian League is going to explode, so much that we will probably want multiple rings or sub-leagues within it eventually, just to stop it becoming unwieldy.

But the real key thing is to consider what would have happened if we hadn't done this, or found some other release valve.

Our Metic population, even if growth had slowed down a bit, was still growing much faster than the citizen population. Additionally, and even more disconcertingly, the more low-skill Metic labour there is, the lower the cost of tenant labour for our big farmers becomes. This means they have less incentive to try to raise productivity, because labour is so cheap. Our poorest Metics would become more like serfs than they already are, except without a lot of the fun customs and legal protections many medieval serfs had in reality.

In a decade or so, if our Metic population reached seventy percent? And conditions for our tenant farmers continued to get worse? That story does not have a happy ending.

Epiketos Linos basically figured out how to spin shit into gold. The man is a genius.
 
okay so I just checked while preparing the new turn stats and Eretria's barbaroi allies including the Messapii Confederacy (which you can't access the levies or tribute from yet) is 28,642 Adult Freemen
 
When the Peuketti, Turai, and Egnatia are Hellenized enough to be integrated into the Epulian League, we'll hopefully be strong enough to throw out any Samnite/Lucanian incursions. No wonder the Italiot cities were scared of a Eretrian Hegemon with that kind of manpower at our potential fingertips.
 
When the Peuketti, Turai, and Egnatia are Hellenized enough to be integrated into the Epulian League, we'll hopefully be strong enough to throw out any Samnite/Lucanian incursions. No wonder the Italiot cities were scared of a Eretrian Hegemon with that kind of manpower at our potential fingertips.
They were scared of an Epulian Hegemon. So current manpower of Eretria + current manpower of Taras = 50 000 Ton Gorilla
 
Eretria Eskhata can count on a population of 22,883 Adult Male Freemen as of the last census
Eretria's barbaroi allies including the Messapii Confederacy (which you can't access the levies or tribute from yet) is 28,642 Adult Freemen
51,525 Adult Freemen without counting the Epulian League cities. but of that number, only 4,577 are Hoplites/Ekdromoi. We have a shitload of light infantry among our barbarian allies and Aktimones.
 
51,525 Adult Freemen without counting the Epulian League cities. but of that number, only 4,577 are Hoplites/Ekdromoi. We have a shitload of light infantry among our barbarian allies and Aktimones.

Well, also keep in mind you're not accessing a lot of the barbaroi levy. The Messapii Confederacy you're getting neither tribute or levies from at all, and even then the maximum levy you get from them is only 25% of their population of adult freemen.
 
They were scared of an Epulian Hegemon. So current manpower of Eretria + current manpower of Taras = 50 000 Ton Gorilla

Even without Taras, next turn the Epulian Sphere (Epulian League+Tributaries) is a roughly ~59,000 Ton Gorrilla by itself if it can get its act together. We really need to increase our number of ships as despite our specialization, that is the one area were we are short. Well that and Hoplites as our force is disproportionately light infantry in comparison to other peer powers.

And as Cetashwayo said, we can only access a reduced percentage of our allies manpower, so that number is in reality quite a bit lower.
 
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Well, also keep in mind you're not accessing a lot of the barbaroi levy. The Messapii Confederacy you're getting neither tribute or levies from at all, and even then the maximum levy you get from them is only 25% of their population of adult freemen.
I imagine that in the case of something close to their home like an invasion by the Lucani, we'd have access to the rest of the Peuketii levy? Or at the very least, we could expect a much larger proportion of the levy to be deployed.
 
On the whole immigration thing, my guess is that the process usually goes like:
-New city is founded.
--Low status citizens with aspirations of status migrate. Some of them fill in the high status positions in the new hierarchy, and their children start entrenching.
--Metics migrate due to much more labor hungry environment, a second rate potter in Athens would be a first rate potter in a new city, and can expect to be more respected.
--Landless people have all the land they can work. Sometimes the city would even pay for the tools and seedstock to speed it up!

The reverse happens with large cities, people migrate OUT, though population doesn't drop due to actual breeding.
-Political losers can sit around in their humiliation or they can move to a new city and unleash their rhetoric on unsuspecting noobs.
-Metics migrate away as the labor market saturates and they start getting paid less.
-Land had all been taken already, aristocratic families may have their third and fourth children seek their fortunes elsewhere with a sack of silver, since theres not enough to inherit.

I figure the tipping point shifts by prestige, but endless expansion isn't in the books, not if you want to live in a civilized manner, since you'd soon exceed the range where you could realistically be supported by your parent city, and you might as well start up a colony.
 
I imagine that in the case of something like an invasion by the Lucani, we'd have access to the rest of the Peuketii levy?

You'd have to raise their obligations, as that 25% is the maximum amount they agreed to. However in an invasion they'd also bear the brunt, so they'd raise the levy themselves.

Even without Taras, next turn the Epulian Sphere (Epulian League+Tributaries) is a roughly ~59,000 Ton Gorrilla by itself if it can get its act together. We really need to increase our number of ships as despite our specialization, that is the one area were we are short. Well that and Hoplites as our force is disproportionately light infantry in comparison to other peer powers.

And as Cetashwayo said, we can only access a reduced percentage of our allies manpower, so that number is in reality quite a bit lower.

Well, to be fair, it was a bit difficult to raise the naval numbers before because it chewed straight into your main levy. Now it makes more sense. I've also created "Reserve Triremes", which are triremes which are extra Triremes beyond the ones you can crew. These Triremes would replace Triremes lost in war. They have a mothball maintenance cost of 0.1 talents per Trireme, and you can build more. In an emergency, your aristocrats won't have enough money to replace all your Triremes, and so a reserve is good to have.

I figure the tipping point shifts by prestige, but endless expansion isn't in the books, not if you want to live in a civilized manner, since you'd soon exceed the range where you could realistically be supported by your parent city, and you might as well start up a colony.

This is a pretty good summation, though I'd add that if you're a really big or prestigious city, like Athenai, you have such a big market for all kinds of things (like professional craftsmanship, art, marble statuary, ceramics) that you will continue to attract skilled labour well after "saturation" point because you're now attracting almost exclusively urban labour.
 
Right, intangible value and services would expand the amount of lower status laborers supported due to high value workers using low value services
 
I'll preface this by saying that this includes one rather off-the-wall idea. I don't like saving Kymai when it seems so wasteful compared to the other foreign policy options that we sacrifice in its place, but if it's the people's will...

One of the big problems that we have for the salvation of Kymai is that one of the cities best positioned to save them with abundant ships, riches and local knowledge (Rhegion) is perfectly gleeful about the situation as it stands. So, what if we are able to reach a deal with Rhegion about this? Currently it's not in Rhegion's interests to help Kymai because every moment they aren't starved to death or invaded is one in which they're not picking up more of the share of trade that Kymai holds. But if we can change the calculus there, maybe we might not only get their approval for our own operations but perhaps we might even get Kymai to help?

For instance, one matter could be promising Rhegion assistance in other spheres that would make up the losses in trade. This could take the form of paying their merchants to harbor the refugees (and we could point out that as they are selling off their priceless yet inedible treasures for grain, bringing some over could be quite the lucrative venture in itself), strengthening our political ties to make the Sikeliote League more reluctant to bother them over Messana, assisting their paltry land forces to gain as much ground against the Sikels while they have the chance before being cut off, or even supporting their navy against the islands west of Lipara since those seem relatively empty for some reason. Most daring of all- we could propose to strike against Lokri Epixephyrii. Frankly I'm not sure if Rhegion is really all that into the Sikel land; it has but a small border with them, likely to be readily closed off by the likes of Mylai and Naxus, and the prize is mostly scrap of hill-country of questionable value.

Lokri Epixephyrii is another story; it has rich coastlands that have long been cultivated by Greeks which Rhegion would doubtlessly wish to secure, and the two cities hate each other. Furthermore, this is an ideal time to attack Lokri Epixephyrii; it has become diplomatically isolated. Her only distant friends of any sort are Sparta and Syrakousai. The former is not the best of naval powers to get to us and at any rate is locked in a titanic struggle with Athens, which controls via Kerkyra the safest approach to Italy by sea and maintains naval dominance about Hellas. Syrakousai is not in itself the strongest naval power (it relies more on Akragas for that) and she as well as her allies of Gela and Akragas are in a scramble to grab as much of the interior Sikel land as possible; to divert forces to the salvation of Lokri Epixephyrii would forfeit their potential gains. Waging war on the Sikeliote League and violating the peace established would bring the whole of Sicily's ire on them for the distraction in the middle of the war they declared, and barring that they would have to use their naval power to send over their forces. This is an area in which they would be poorly equipped to contest the combined strength of competent Rhegion and Eretria, even with Akragas at their side! This is after a backdrop of promoting Sicily for Sicilians in the conference and the shearing of non-Sicilian ties, as well; for the rulers to support such a platform, they can't have all that strong of ties to an Italiote state without appearing as hypocrites.

For our part, Eretria has no love lost with western Lokri (the only city to refuse our offered proxenoi, spitting the slander of 'spy' with their forked tongues) and we are also allied with its other rival, Krotone, which would be pleased to see their demise. Shorn of allies, surrounded by hostile neighbors and threatened by the most powerful of the Italiote cities... how could Lokri Epixephyrii stand against such a force? This would serve to further isolate Syrakousai while it is unable to effectively respond and empower the balance of the allied forces against it, encourage our new ally Krotone with an act in their favor, serve as a clear example of Eretrian leadership to Italiotes AND serve as the chip through which we may purchase a more prolonged siege and liberty for a greater share of the people of Kymai. Perhaps an empowered Krotone and Rhegion may discourage adventurism against them on behalf of Thurii and the Sikeliote League, as well.

@Cetashwayo, would this be a reasonable option? Or would it appear that a long day at work has addled my senses?
 
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By evacuating a portion of Kymai's populace, we are actually playing in hand with Rhegion's desires because if by some miracle Kymai manages to weather this storm(they won't but nobody knows for sure), most of the evacuated populace is very unlikely to return anyway. When people leave and build new lives in a new place, they are unlikely to uproot themselves again and go back to the old still endangered place. So as afar as Rhegion is concerned we can spend as much effort as we like to weaken their enemy in the long run by removing their citizens and resettling them on the other side of Italia.

Think of how happy our rivals would be if someone came by Eretria and moved half our citizens to colonies on the Black Sea. We would be crippled by the loss of so many citizens and would no longer be a threat to them.
 
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@Cetashwayo, would this be a reasonable option? Or would it appear that a long day at work has addled my senses?

I think you're somewhat overthinking the situation. As with Carthage's response to the Phokaean settlement of Alalia which forced them out but by no means followed them after they fled from Corsica, Rhegion doesn't necessarily care where Kymai's citizens go if they're not there anymore. Let me clarify since it's not clear to me from this if you mean saving the city as the physical city; the most popular idea is to save Kymai's people by transferring them to the Adriatic to settle a new colony, not to save the city from Oscans.

As for your idea, it would be a significant commitment by arms by Eretria mostly for Rhegion's benefit. Krotone has to gain from defeating an enemy, but if that enemy is replaced by Krotone, obviously that's not necessarily much better. It seems like an unnecessary level of assistance to Rhegion (which would have to slaughter or significantly reduce the population of the citizens of Lokri just to hold the territory) for the sake of Kymai.
 
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By evacuating a portion of Kymai's populace, we are actually playing in hand with Rhegion's desires because if by some miracle Kymai manages to weather this storm(they won't but nobody knows for sure), most of the evacuated populace is very unlikely to return anyway. When people leave and build new lives in a new place, they are unlikely to uproot themselves again and go back to the old still endangered place. So as afar as Rhegion is concerned we can spend as much effort as we like to weaken their enemy in the long run by removing their citizens and resettling them on the other side of Italia.

Think of how happy our rivals would be if someone came by Eretria and moved half our citizens to colonies on the Black Sea. We would be crippled by the loss of so many citizens and would no longer be a threat to them.

Perhaps, but you also have to consider that by sending over grain to prolong the siege so we can grab as many as we can and by lowering the number of mouths to feed in the city we are also prolonging the siege. This extends the period of time in which Kymai serves as a trade center rather than shifting over to Rhegion, so if a person sees it from that standpoint then they might wish for us to knock it off. Some amount of diplomacy with Rhegion is necessary for this, although not perhaps as high as what I'm suggesting.

I think you're somewhat overthinking the situation. As with Carthage's response to the Phokaean settlement of Alalia which forced them out, Rhegion doesn't necessarily care where Kymai's citizens go if they're not there anymore. Let me clarify since it's not clear to me from this if you mean saving the city as the physical city; the most popular idea is to save Kymai's people by transferring them to the Adriatic to settle a new colony, not to save the city from Oscans.

As for your idea, it would be a significant commitment by arms by Eretria mostly for Rhegion's benefit. Krotone has to gain from defeating an enemy, but if that enemy is replaced by Krotone, obviously that's not necessarily much better. It seems like an unnecessary level of assistance to Rhegion (which would have to slaughter or significantly reduce the population of the citizens of Lokri just to hold the territory) for the sake of Kymai.

I don't intend to save the physical city with that scheme, I don't see how Rhegion could really help with that either since they're a naval power. What they could do is sell more grain to Kymai to extend its survival time and provide more ships with which to ferry them away, since I understand the number of our available ships for this to be a substantial constraint on the affair.

Point taken, I guess we could dial back to one of those other ways of offering support such as sending a few guys over to help in fighting against barbaroi, paying them to help or offering greater political support on the Messana issue versus the Sikeliote League. I thought that if we were able to achieve some other objectives at the same time (such as further limiting the number of friends Syrakousai has) that that might be beneficial, and that we might through an unnecessary level assistance to Rhegion secure an unnecessary level of assistance to Kymai which in my view is the essence of the choice.
 
Perhaps, but you also have to consider that by sending over grain to prolong the siege so we can grab as many as we can and by lowering the number of mouths to feed in the city we are also prolonging the siege. This extends the period of time in which Kymai serves as a trade center rather than shifting over to Rhegion, so if a person sees it from that standpoint then they might wish for us to knock it off. Some amount of diplomacy with Rhegion is necessary for this, although not perhaps as high as what I'm suggesting.

I'm not sure how much use Kymai has as a trade center during an ongoing siege in which it has at least temporarily lost its agricultural hinterland.
 
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