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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Cetashwayo said:
I'm not sure how much use Kymai has as a trade center during an ongoing siege in which it has at least temporarily lost its agricultural hinterland.
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They're selling off their treasury to secure grain and still have a bunch of craftsmen, correct? They can't sell off much in the way of grain or other food at this point but I was thinking that if you were after non-edible Hellenic goods then that would probably be the place to go with everything at firesale prices and not so far as Rhegion. Or at least, that was the impression that I got when you said that Rhegion would have substantial objections to them reclaiming the island off the coast of the peninsula that those teenagers wandered onto.
 
Kipeci said:
They're selling off their treasury to secure grain and still have a bunch of craftsmen, correct? They can't sell off much in the way of grain or other food at this point but I was thinking that if you were after non-edible Hellenic goods then that would probably be the place to go with everything at firesale prices and not so far as Rhegion. Or at least, that was the impression that I got when you said that Rhegion would have substantial objections to them reclaiming the island off the coast of the peninsula that those teenagers wandered onto.
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I had thought that the question was about Eretria occupying the islands, not Kymai?

I mean Kymai's already been KOed pretty badly. Most goods that cities do export is agricultural, and you have to get quite big or have a specialized trade good to do otherwise. Rhegion's main interest is in ensuring they stay down and then taking Pithekousai as a new trading outpost for them in the Bay of Naples.
 
Cetashwayo said:
I had thought that the question was about Eretria occupying the islands, not Kymai?

I mean Kymai's already been KOed pretty badly. Most goods that cities do export is agricultural, and you have to get quite big or have a specialized trade good to do otherwise. Rhegion's main interest is in ensuring they stay down and then taking Pithekousai as a new trading outpost for them in the Bay of Naples.
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My idea at the time was that we would help them reclaim that island so that they could use it as sort of a pressure relief valve; the folks relocated on the island could with relative safety (I imagine that there aren't that many Oscan teenagers who took the dare, what with it being so difficult to drive herds across the ocean) access fish and pursue some agriculture over the course of the next few years and through their absence in the physical city and perhaps even export of some surplus alleviate some of the starvation pressure and provide more time to evacuate as well as goodwill towards us, and with it credibility on the prospect of ferrying the inhabitants of Kymai even farther away. It doesn't seem like one island would be nearly fertile enough to support the whole city, but at least it'd be something and it doesn't look like it would be a hard or distant expedition if we're starting from Kymai with our sizable fleet. My intention was never to claim it for Eretria, since it's clear on the wrong side of Italy and I'd rather we concern ourselves with Adriatic colonies in addition to the problems with Rhegion that you mentioned.

Fair enough, I guess Rhegion might not need that much convincing, then. Provided that we don't screw up the diplomacy something fierce.
 
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While Rhegion is likely to not be that hard to convince to accept the rescue expedition, tough they would probably ask for some kind of payment for the trouble, as things are they are unlikely to be actually actively helping. The same factors making them care not one way or the other wheter the Kimaians end up in the Adriatic or death and enslaved making them, well, not care one way or the other.

Rhegion ambition for Pithekousai is interesting, tough, as while some Oscans have managed to make their way there the map show that the town itself is still in Greek hands. While Kimaians pride would undoutebly make things more complicated I wonder if they're might not be some kind of deal to be made here: Rhegion would actually actively help, at least in some measure, and in exchange Pithekousai would be directly granted to them, without having to be resetled or a more substantive expedition mounted to expulse the Oscans after they had the time to grow roots on the island.

EDIT: Or maybe the Oscans have only swam to the smaller, nearer, islands, with Pithekousai still in greek hands and therefore an even more enticing price for Rhegion.
 
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phil03 said:
While Rhegion is likely to not be that hard to convince to accept the rescue expedition, tough they would probably ask for some kind of payment for the trouble, as things are they are unlikely to be actually actively helping. The same factors making them care not one way or the other wheter the Kimaians end up in the Adriatic or death and enslaved making them, well, not care one way or the other.

Rhegion ambition for Pithekousai is interesting, tough, as while some Oscans have managed to make their way there the map show that the town itself is still in Greek hands. While Kimaians pride would undoutebly make things more complicated I wonder if they're might not be some kind of deal to be made here: Rhegion would actually actively help, at least in some measure, and in exchange Pithekousai would be directly granted to them, without having to be resetled or a more substantive expedition mounted to expulse the Oscans after they had the time to grow roots on the island.

EDIT: Or maybe the Oscans have only swam to the smaller, nearer, islands, with Pithekousai still in greek hands and therefore an even more enticing price for Rhegion.
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The Oscans are on the island of Capri, not on Pithekousai.

I don't think the people of Kymai are likely to agree to that, there's apparently a pretty substantial fraction of them that think everything's going to be OK or else that this is their home and that's that and that people are being defeatist IIRC. They would be absolutely livid about selling themselves out to Rhegion to save only a fraction of the population, since they'd view that as what actually would doom them sooner and not just the invasion, if tensions get high enough on that it could cause civil strife which would complicate the whole endeavor. While if it's after the sacking then they're already demoralized on Pithekousai and not really able to resist Rhegion.
 
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Kipeci said:
Perhaps, but you also have to consider that by sending over grain to prolong the siege so we can grab as many as we can and by lowering the number of mouths to feed in the city we are also prolonging the siege. This extends the period of time in which Kymai serves as a trade center rather than shifting over to Rhegion, so if a person sees it from that standpoint then they might wish for us to knock it off. Some amount of diplomacy with Rhegion is necessary for this, although not perhaps as high as what I'm suggesting.
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When the QM is literally telling you that Rhegion is not that petty, you can just accept that Rhegion is not actually that petty.

See? These things can be simple!
 
I am opposed to the idea of offering support to Rhegion against Lokri.

The reason is, our policy in Italia right now should be mantaining peaceful relations between the cities in case of a Lucani aggression, and at the same time improving our relations with Taras.

If we start a war with Lokri in order to rescue Kymai, we hawe two consequences:

- ) Both Rhegion and Lokri, both near the Bruttii and the Lunani, will be weakened.
- ) Taras will be alarmed by another war against an Italic power

Kymai is important, but not as important as mantaining the status quo in our region right now.
 
@Cetashwayo I was wondering what the Hieros Ekdromoi and the Kleos Exoria do while we are not at war. I would assume they train for a good bit, the Ekdromoi serve as marines, and you mentioned most rent their landholdings to metic tenant farmers. Do our professional forces run road patrols to deter bandits or escort merchant caravans?

Also, if the Adriatic colonies expand the Epulian League too much would we establish another ring of the league named after Ankon, Pharos or Issa? What would the adjective form of those names be? Ankonian/Ankorene?Pharosan/Pharosian/Pharosene/Pharive? Issan/Issian/Issarene/Issarive?
 
Chopak said:
We voted against forming the Adriatic Ring if that's what you mean
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What I meant is that someday far in the future, we might have twenty or thirty colonies in the Adriatic, many whose citizens have never been to Epulian, much less Eretria itself. Would they consider themselves Epulian? Would we need to establish rings within, not necessarily subordinate, within the league for administration and organization. The league cities wanted a common strategos when there were only seven small cities. Imagine how bad it would be with twenty, or even thirty. I'm more interested in the 'proper' adjectives in any case.
 
AvidFicReader said:
What I meant is that someday far in the future, we might have twenty or thirty colonies in the Adriatic, many whose citizens have never been to Epulian, much less Eretria itself. Would they consider themselves Epulian? Would we need to establish rings within, not necessarily subordinate, within the league for administration and organization. The league cities wanted a common strategos when there were only seven small cities. Imagine how bad it would be with twenty, or even thirty. I'm more interested in the 'proper' adjectives in any case.
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The Athenians' league is still named the Delian league despite extending over quite a bit more than Athens and Delos. The name is kinda meaningless. What matters is whether we can make them care about the league. We could always rename it the Adriatic League.
 
Again, I don't care all that much about the future details of the future league. More interested in the adjective form of the colony names and how our professional units spend their time. More world building, please.
 
AvidFicReader said:
What I meant is that someday far in the future, we might have twenty or thirty colonies in the Adriatic, many whose citizens have never been to Epulian, much less Eretria itself. Would they consider themselves Epulian? Would we need to establish rings within, not necessarily subordinate, within the league for administration and organization. The league cities wanted a common strategos when there were only seven small cities. Imagine how bad it would be with twenty, or even thirty. I'm more interested in the 'proper' adjectives in any case.
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Once we've got more League troops than a single strategos can command, we'd just get them to elect sub-strategoi?
 
For that matter, what's the adjective form of "Kymai?" I feel awkward always saying "the citizens of Kymai," but also trying to figure out whether it's "Kymaian" or whatever. :(
 
AvidFicReader said:
What I meant is that someday far in the future, we might have twenty or thirty colonies in the Adriatic, many whose citizens have never been to Epulian, much less Eretria itself. Would they consider themselves Epulian? Would we need to establish rings within, not necessarily subordinate, within the league for administration and organization. The league cities wanted a common strategos when there were only seven small cities. Imagine how bad it would be with twenty, or even thirty. I'm more interested in the 'proper' adjectives in any case.
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Well that is why we do stuff like build impressive temples, establish common festivals, introduce common weights and measurements and indeed the beginnings of a league wide administration. The hope is, or at least I think so, to use those tools to build a common identity and ties between our communities. If people worship the same gods, use the same language and celebrate the same athletes they hopefully view themselves as a group.
 
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Erandil said:
Well that is why we do stuff like build impressive temples, establish common festivals, introduce common weights and measurements and indeed the beginnings of a league wide administration. The hope is, or at least I think so, to use those tools to build a common identity and ties between our communities. If people worship the same gods, use the same language and celebrate the same athletes they hopefully view themselves as a group.
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Civis romanus sum.

That will take decades if not generations, but then what everything worth their value has been easy to do?

This Kymai Rescue Quest will change Eretria and bring out her mettle in doing this fantastic action that only tales and myths have spoken of.
 
AvidFicReader said:
@Cetashwayo I was wondering what the Hieros Ekdromoi and the Kleos Exoria do while we are not at war. I would assume they train for a good bit, the Ekdromoi serve as marines, and you mentioned most rent their landholdings to metic tenant farmers. Do our professional forces run road patrols to deter bandits or escort merchant caravans?

Also, if the Adriatic colonies expand the Epulian League too much would we establish another ring of the league named after Ankon, Pharos or Issa? What would the adjective form of those names be? Ankonian/Ankorene?Pharosan/Pharosian/Pharosene/Pharive? Issan/Issian/Issarene/Issarive?
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When they're not working they're acting as members of the leisure class, exercising, writing theater, debating philosophy or wrestling. This is especially so for the Kleos Exoria who are among the most exalted members of the equestrian class.

You could probably eventually set up administrative districts. Athenai has done something similar for the Delian League. But they'd still be part of the "Epulian" League, just as all members of the Delian League are, and all members of the Achaean League were in the 3rd century BCE, despite most of its membership not being Achaean culturally.

Ankonian, Pharosene, and Issan respectively.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
When they're not working they're acting as members of the leisure class, exercising, writing theater, debating philosophy or wrestling. This is especially so for the Kleos Exoria who are among the most exalted members of the equestrian class.

You could probably eventually set up administrative districts. Athenai has done something similar for the Delian League. But they'd still be part of the "Epulian" League, just as all members of the Delian League are, and all members of the Achaean League were in the 3rd century BCE, despite most of its membership not being Achaean culturally.

Ankonian, Pharosene, and Issan respectively.
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Cool. And what's the official adjective for the people of Kymai?
 
Arminio said:
I am opposed to the idea of offering support to Rhegion against Lokri.

The reason is, our policy in Italia right now should be mantaining peaceful relations between the cities in case of a Lucani aggression, and at the same time improving our relations with Taras.

If we start a war with Lokri in order to rescue Kymai, we hawe two consequences:

- ) Both Rhegion and Lokri, both near the Bruttii and the Lunani, will be weakened.
- ) Taras will be alarmed by another war against an Italic power

Kymai is important, but not as important as mantaining the status quo in our region right now.
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Lucani aggression is occurring right now, but in exactly the opposite direction around Poseidonia. Neither western Lokri nor Rhegion have any borders with barbaroi, barring the minor case of the Sikels for the latter- though, those unfortunates are in the process of being dogpiled on by every Hellenic power on the island, so I wouldn't exactly consider their minor bordering hills to be a terrible threat to Rhegion's integrity.

Certainly Lokri would be weakened, but that would be to our benefit. The only minor factions that it directly threatens are Rhegion and Krotone; it does not border nor help with the Brutii, a struggle left to our allies of Krotone and Thurii. Furthermore it is a friend of Syrakousai, the only one out of the isle of Sicily and presents the only gap in our block of variously aligned Italiote cities of note. If Krotone wrests control of the cities near to western Lokri, that actually could substantially empower them versus the Brutii relative to either group going it alone when raiding comes from that way.

Taras is no friend to Lokri Epixephyrii, it was explicitly stated in An Excess of Heroes that the rise of Taras was part of what cut western Lokri off from aid and diplomatically isolated it. It would be the height of foolishness for Taras to try to wage war on us and break the sacred truce for the sake of despised Lokri following our prior victory over them and willingness to bury the hatchet.

To the contrary I don't really find Kymai as important, which is why I'd rather try to get some other more concrete benefit out of this ordeal if we're going to be strapped in for this ride by the will of the people. Presently western Lokri screws up our power projection coming off the tip of the Italiote boot into Sicily, acting as a obstacle in the doorway for most of our block. We did a good job in Sicily but we can't rely on the current favorable balance staying the case with the regular factional flip-flopping, so let's punish western Lokri for being a pawn of Syrakousai and reward & strengthen our allies while that entity cannot effectively respond and set ourselves up to do better if needed in the future. Plus, hey, if we save Kymai out of it we still come out of the deal looking heroic even as we bully the jerks that no one likes.
 
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Dropped out temporarily because stuck in Cultist Simulator.

Still can't stop playing.

Send help.
 
So what I'm considering is we use talk no jutsu against Rhegion, Thurii and Taras by getting all of us against Lokri.

Preferably when we can pit Syrakouse and the Sikelians against Carthage, of course.

Thoughts?
 
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