- Location
- Luton Airport
Da Red Triremes Go Fasta!After all, wearing the hats of your defeated foes is the finest tradition there is
Are you sure we're Greeks and not Orks?
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
There's also a comparative advantage aspect to it. Yes, they can be used as heavy infantry, but they're more valuable to you as additional cavalry. Besides, attaching large portions of people who don't actually all speak Greek to a phalanx that relies on the solidarity of its parts seems like a recipe for disaster. Roman allies contributed to the infantry, but they were under a Roman commander, and they were much more important as cavalry, supplying as much as 75% of the entire Roman cavalry force in the 3rd century BCE.
Every Greek state is special, though. My approach is not that Eretria is super special but that every major Hellene state is special in some way, and Eretria is just special in its own way. Besides, being special and "oc" is part of the draw. I'm not here to write history, I'm here to write alternate history. Players just have a tendency to translate special to "best" and presume supremacy over the rest of the Mediterranean, when Eretria isn't actually the best in a lot of ways beyond just numbers. It isn't the best at women's rights in the Greek world, it isn't the best at culture, it's not the wealthiest, the largest, the most innovative in citizenship, the most technologically advanced if such a classification can exist, etc. Eretria isn't even politically special since its constitutional form is popular in much of the west. There are unique aspects because this is an ancient society simulator, and players should have some opportunity to alter their ancient society.
I don't have time to go into every single Hellene state and how it's special, but obviously those who rise above the rest have some kind of advantages. For all its "specialness", Eretria is still basically a Greek state. The idea of a single "Hellene" culture is a complete falsehood in this period anyway, since the connection was linguistic and different regions followed different Gods and different customs that could vary wildly, with only a few universal icons like worship of Zeus. Some aspects are also not really all that "special" in the sense that Eretria has a monopoly on them, like a better taxation system. That's not something Eretria Eskhata can just keep over its neighbors forever, and part of it is purely taxing the metics. If you gave all your metics citizenship tomorrow you'd lose a third of your tax revenue. Part of the impulse to presume superiority in speciality is just player egotism (in the neutral sense) which can translate into hubris, but I'm fine with that since it's in character anyway.
The only thing I feel is a bit much is the population growth, which I'm going to significantly reduce after this election cycle.
And yes, it wasn't evident in the early quest, because these are retroactive thoughts, though some aspects like Eretria's taxation is something that emerged later anyway.
Last edited:
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I mean, a lot of the concern about, say, Eretria becoming Rome and losing its Hellenic flavor is usually just players projecting systems they think are familiar with the ones Eretria has, but there are a lot of actual differences between, say, the system of Roman allies and Eretrian tributaries, and it'll only continue to change and evolve as the tributaries become more institutionalized. Also, obviously, over time the entire Greek World is going to change, and while these changes may have their ripple effects start at Eretria, as we've seen with Sicily this soon takes a mind of its own without any real connection remaining to Eretria and even to its detriment.
I know what you're referring to, which is effectively the fear that Eretria will turn into a hyper-idealized awesome state that is better than everyone else at everything. But while I am interested in preserving many interesting aspects of Eretria's society, I am also not here solely to sate the egos of players who want Eretria to dunk on everyone. You've just had a relatively easy time of it so far, and I've said in the past I don't like to fuck over players without there being warnings, but that also means that it takes time for more credible challenges to emerge. Part of people's excitement is based around complete supposition, like assuming that because they've established embassies with the Italiotes they will now be able to merge them into Eretria in twenty-five years, which somewhat deprives agency from these states. You can't just "diplo-annex" large poleis like that. I haven't really said much on this topic besides explicitly cautioning people and explaining that the Italiotes don't even consider Eretria as part of their geographic region, and because I try not to walk into discussions of the future and make blanket statements. Maybe Eretria could annex these states in the future, but it would take a specific set of circumstances for that to happen, like a big foreign threat, and I think I've been rather clear on that.
The best advice I can give is for players to, as I have said in the past, remain aware that Eretria is not the only player in the Mediterranean and while I am happy to play around with its unique culture and attributes and advantages, it's not the only state with a unique culture and attributes and advantages. So far I haven't seen much indication that people don't get this, and in fact especially after publishing the numbers for each major power in the Med this turn people got quite frightened. So I think I'm doing my job just fine in this respect.
I know what you're referring to, which is effectively the fear that Eretria will turn into a hyper-idealized awesome state that is better than everyone else at everything. But while I am interested in preserving many interesting aspects of Eretria's society, I am also not here solely to sate the egos of players who want Eretria to dunk on everyone. You've just had a relatively easy time of it so far, and I've said in the past I don't like to fuck over players without there being warnings, but that also means that it takes time for more credible challenges to emerge. Part of people's excitement is based around complete supposition, like assuming that because they've established embassies with the Italiotes they will now be able to merge them into Eretria in twenty-five years, which somewhat deprives agency from these states. You can't just "diplo-annex" large poleis like that. I haven't really said much on this topic besides explicitly cautioning people and explaining that the Italiotes don't even consider Eretria as part of their geographic region, and because I try not to walk into discussions of the future and make blanket statements. Maybe Eretria could annex these states in the future, but it would take a specific set of circumstances for that to happen, like a big foreign threat, and I think I've been rather clear on that.
The best advice I can give is for players to, as I have said in the past, remain aware that Eretria is not the only player in the Mediterranean and while I am happy to play around with its unique culture and attributes and advantages, it's not the only state with a unique culture and attributes and advantages. So far I haven't seen much indication that people don't get this, and in fact especially after publishing the numbers for each major power in the Med this turn people got quite frightened. So I think I'm doing my job just fine in this respect.
Last edited:
- Location
- Luton Airport
They still want to chase off to Kymai though!!
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
My ideal here is, to take the idea of cities as characters of their own and run with it, that Eretria doesn't "diplo-annex" other cities, so much as form strong bonds of brotherhood between them even as they continue to compete, in a way similar to how individual hoplites will compete with one another even while marching together in a phalanx. Eretria being a respected voice, absolutely, but I have no desire to see yet another "city becomes an empire" story, because it always turns out really shitty. To continue to abuse the metaphor, I would want to see the cities-as-characters have their own ekklesia, with enough fellowship to prevent internal bloodshed beyond the analogue to brawling over an argument. That's the goal I'm aiming for, to take the competitive spirit of the cities vying against one another and channel it to productive ends, the same way that the people of each city do so.
I mean it is exactly because I share this view of the Greek city states being a diverse lot with many different forms of government, social make-up and culture that I was so surprised by the whole "Eretria is a revolutionary state without any precedent" post since I never got the impression that we were that unique.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think the point is that we're unique in how we formed and remade our laws from the ground up, not in how the final product ended up.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Yeah, it's unique in that aspect. That's my point. The revolution was unique and it made a unique society. But that doesn't say anything about other aspects of Eretrian society. And in the end it's converged with a lot of the rest of the Italiotes, and as I said the revolution was a while ago. As Nyvis said, it's not how the final product ended up. Part of this was pure fun on my part, taking what was effectively, as you say, purely mechanical things and making them work historically. It was meant to add flavor to Eretria, not take it away. I didn't mean for it to reflect on some kind of crazy superpower Eretria had. It was cultural worldbuilding.
Last edited:
I find that generally the spread of Eretia and its tributaries is to small to make any professional multi city force viable.
Through...
@Cetashwayo
IF the liege spread far enough and IF the liege command a large enough fleet (both tiremes and merchants) would than something like professional marines possible?
Something like "Each member city pleges 0,5% (or something lower as that percentage still sounds high) of its income to paying for the marines to procect the trade and waters"? That would be a 'large' force that would travel through many/most of the liege cities.
Through...
@Cetashwayo
IF the liege spread far enough and IF the liege command a large enough fleet (both tiremes and merchants) would than something like professional marines possible?
Something like "Each member city pleges 0,5% (or something lower as that percentage still sounds high) of its income to paying for the marines to procect the trade and waters"? That would be a 'large' force that would travel through many/most of the liege cities.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
You already have professional marines, they're called Hieros Ekdromoi.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
We already have marines, and we already draw tribute from our allies. So we basically have that
@Cetashwayo
That's something I wanted to ask anyway. I have a hard time wrapping my head around population growth in the pre-modern era. From colonial populations (i.e. colonial America) I would have guessed that population will increase very fast (up to doubling per generation) as long as good land is still available. This happens until you reach the Malthusian limit and then the population stagnates.
But when I look at Europe after the Black Death (and sometimes after depopulating wars) it seems like it took many areas centuries until they recovered. Shouldn't population growth have exploded there until it reached the previous numbers again?
I tried searching a bit, but wasn't able to find a good answer.
So with our city here: how much food surplus is still available for our growth? When would we need to start importing food from far away to support our city?
Will this be modeled as fast growth until the carrying capacity of the land is reached?
What actually restrained population growth at this time beyond having too little food?
- Location
- Luton Airport
Eretria thus far has been about leveraging our domestic power to gain non-domestic power, in terms of the League, our Iapyges vassals, and indeed our involvement in Sicily in many respects.
I see no reason why seeking to create an Italiote Supra-League wouldn't fit with that progression, giving us a prominent say in a yet larger and more powerful body, one that would have a lot less to fear from the interior barbaroi.
I see no reason why seeking to create an Italiote Supra-League wouldn't fit with that progression, giving us a prominent say in a yet larger and more powerful body, one that would have a lot less to fear from the interior barbaroi.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
To get what America got, you need two things: an open country as a destination, and a demographic explosion in the source country. We have neither. Citizenship and land ownership is restricted at home, and there's no big explosion of Greek population to absorb.
Black death Europe was hit everywhere, so same.
America is the exception, not the rule, brought by a specific colonial system and a depopulated land.
The Malthusian limit is a bit of a kooky theory anyway, you can wring more out of the land if you have more people, it's just less labour efficient.
I'd rather build up a League we're the deciding factor in and we can structure along productive lines than build up a League of Leagues we're just one participant in. Especially since the latter will just be permanent damage control and dispute arbitration.
I think we should aim for total control of the Adriatic instead.
Last edited:
@Cetashwayo
Just a bit curious how does the common Eretrian feel about the citizen-service and their role in the politics of the city since the granting of minor offices that provides salaries and stipends would enable those individuals to have an income coming from the polis and something independent of the land tilled by either citizen, metic, or serf that would normally be the basis of wealth in an agricultural society.
Just a bit curious how does the common Eretrian feel about the citizen-service and their role in the politics of the city since the granting of minor offices that provides salaries and stipends would enable those individuals to have an income coming from the polis and something independent of the land tilled by either citizen, metic, or serf that would normally be the basis of wealth in an agricultural society.
Yes and not what I asked.
Yes: I Have seen this answer alread from you previously. And I must confess that I do not fully understand it. The Ekdromoi are our elite holpites so what makes them our marines as well? They are always deployed with the terimes but I though that was because there was not enough room to bring citicen hoplites with them and because when citicen hoplites were there as well it was because everything/most is called upon.
Not what I asked: Having more troops under command or having other pay for them is secondary. Have you heard that the EU members are contemplating forming an EU army? Non really considers giving up their own. So why do they want that now? To bring trust between the different military cultures. I want primary the same. As most of the lieges cities are coastl having a unit that contains part of every city will help tie them all together more as the marines can share stories of the other cities and their citizen all winter.
But yes. Now that is not feseabl as all cities are close enough together that they come in contact with each other regulary. That was the "IF the liege spread far enough". I literally mean to far apart that its members can become foreign to each other.
- Location
- Luton Airport
Ekdromoi means "outrunners" - they're more lightly equipped than our heaviest hoplites, but an elite in terms of endurance, training and esprit de corps, so they're ideal for work as marines, fighting aboard ship and longshore raiding.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I would say that the majority of the greek great powers are as unique as us. It's almost a requirement, really; there's no standard path to glory from acting like a stereotype, and every opportunity to acquire power and influence exerts influence over the city in turn. Sparta has their pile of slaves, elite troops, and empowered women. Athens has their navy, massive league of allies, and enough cultural clout that we still call them 'allies' when Athens would gleefully sack cities who wanted not to be allies anymore. The heptarchy, who may well join the ranks of the greats if they are unified one way or another, are equally unique; Syrakousai is a kingdom-turned-democracy which retained its thirst for conquest; the Sikeliote league is a genuine federation, and most of the smaller cities have specialized in some way to survive, like rhegion's intense focus on their navy, Gela trying to remain a neutral centerpiece, or Selinous becoming gradually more Carthaginian.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
First of all, American growth was not just large families. It was large families+open land+mass emigration from Europe. It was also assisted by all the cool new crops that were being used, like potatoes and corn. Almost 1.5 million people emigrated to the Americas before the Treaty of Paris.
In addition, population didn't necessarily grow evenly after the Black Death. It led to permanent economic changes and shifts in where population was. Some areas became more reliant on serfdom and some areas became less reliant. Some regions were economically crippled, like Egypt. Population grew back slowly because it had always grown back slowly; it never "exploded" except in localized instances.
I'm not really going to give estimates on how much food surplus is available. That is way beyond the scope of my knowledge to give a firm number. But yes, population growth has already decreased and will continue to. Population growth can be restrained by cultural factors like late marriages or demographic factors like an uneven ratio of men to women after a war. Argos took decades to recover from its final defeat by Sparta.
There isn't a single instance in which Eretria has gained tributaries that hasn't involved overwhelming military force or defeat of the enemy in war. I'm not sure how that translates to being able to create an Italiote supra-league under its guidance without some attendant incident prompting it. It's not impossible, but it's not actually a simple and logical step from "create a network of tributaries much smaller than Eretria and dependent on its protection" to "develop a network of much larger and more powerful states". It'll certainly take some time to work towards and would probably start as a symbolic league unless it was accompanied by Eretria beating the shit out of the Italiotes and making them say uncle, or you're facing someone much scarier.
First of all, there is nothing special that differentiates a marine from a hoplite. Every single Greek state that has marines just used hoplites. Marine is literally just a heavily armed soldier on a ship who can conduct actions on islands nearby or fight in boarding actions. Marines were instrumental at Sphakteria and deployed by Athenai in northwest Hellas. But again, they are hoplites; although you can gain more experience to be a better marine. And so it makes a lot of sense to use the Hieros Ekdromoi as marines.
Second of all, the league cities are going to be contributing marines as part of their own trireme crews. Every Trireme has a crew of marines, and sometimes that crew isn't attached to the Trireme. The Hieros Ekdromoi attached to Eretria's triremes represent that boarding crew, and there's usually 25 per ship on top of the 150 rowers. I admit I don't really understand the rest of your question.
Think I addressed this previously. It's a decent amount of money and gives them a lot of prestige and acknowledgement from their peers if they do a good job, but it's not enough to significantly change economic relations. It mostly helps cultivate a group of middling class politicos who don't have the money or time to participate in running for elections but have clout in the assembly.
Last edited:
- Location
- Luton Airport
I meant in the sense that we have a template for giving up some power in certain areas to gain more overall - the League veto and recent reforms, for example, or our dealings with Harpos.
These have thus far absolutely always been with us holding the whip hand, but we have an established mindset for diplomatic compromise and allowing others to come away from a deal with a win of their own that would give us more of a shot at creating an Italiote system than most.
I wasn't expecting we'd have anything solid established soon, without major butterflies, but that it'd be something we could evolve, what with having already allied with Krotone and Thurii, and having Metapontion friendly-neutral. A regular meeting of the Italiote cities to discuss common issues would be a good starting point, for example.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Wasn't there usually only 14 Marines per ship during the Peloponnesian war?
There are some accounts of up to 40 Marines per ship in certain battles, but generally this would mean that, Eretria, with its Marines being professional Soldiery and lighter, experienced, well trained Ekdromoi, has a major advantage on boarding actions against other Greeks, as well as the Eretrian Triremes design focus on maximum agility and manoeuvrability for sheering and ramming, alongside their famous professional towers and Naval Officer Academy, translating to them being, essentially, pound for pound, far superior to other Greeks outside of Athens.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
The Italiote cities don't consider Eretria as one of their own though. More peaceful involvement in Hellene affairs outside Epulia will need economic power and especially cultural appeal as much or more than augmenting our military power. I suppose rescuing the citizens of Kymai would actually be a good start there at least.
In any case we're kind of just spinning our wheels here now. I see making arrangements with the Messapii to get them contributing and focusing on building up the city's cultural cachet and general quality of life as our most pressing needs for the next while.
In any case we're kind of just spinning our wheels here now. I see making arrangements with the Messapii to get them contributing and focusing on building up the city's cultural cachet and general quality of life as our most pressing needs for the next while.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Maybe we could try and spread the Divine Marriage? We had a good thing going with exporting it for a while, at least to Sicily, maybe in a few Electoral Terms we could really start throwing money at our Temples, maybe mimic Gela a bit in creating a cultural centre via spreading a popular religious and cultural cult.
Most cities in Italia have adopted Democracy and parts of our constitution, and The Divine Union has always been a patron of Democracy, it might be viable to repaint ourselves as 'Mother Of Italian Democracy'.
Though this would be a decades long endeavour, and something I only want to do once we've got a large fleet, strong control of the Adriatic and firm control of all the Iapgyians finally.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I am going to cool off on answering questions, anyways. Feels like an endless flood every few days