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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Admiral Skippy said:
My idea for giving the psiloi a bit more prestige, as well as a slightly better array, which may also transfer into more group training and battlefield effectiveness from social status, was to just literally give every man a shield. As in, the Eretrian state promises to give every man a shield, regardless of social status or wealth, with the implicit promise that they will bear that shield in its defence. The state exists as the shield of the people, but the people must also stand together to shield their city, and so on.

How we would find a good reason for something like that was something I was utterly lost on, though. Honestly starting by seizing and holding a bunch of captured enemy arms is a really good idea.

It would be entirely natural for some sort of ad-hoc arrangement like that done right after a battle to eventually evolve into a Sacred Armoury, as you say.
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I really like this idea - it's poetic. If you propose it after our next military victory I'll lift your rock.
 
I've been thinking about something... We made a system to grant awards to our own citizens and metics, but I think we should consider having a similar system to grant awards to exceptional allies and friends. It would be a great way of generating goodwill and extending culture ties, while anchoring alliances in public consciousness. I don't know if we can just extend the logic with the wreath for that?

I could see us granting one to Pylonos for his breakthrough in the battle with Taras. And it would show there's no hard feelings about him asking for reforms. The league probably needed that anyway.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
It's already established that we send people we like blinged up rocks.
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Fair enough. Is it as official as the awards though? A nice ceremony to give it to them would be a good way to show off.

Edit: by the way, is there a quick explanation about how to do the in character discussion and assembly stuff? I've mostly been reading the old quests so I didn't get into it yet and I'm a bit lost.
 
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You know, after this, I think we should really focus on trying to attract higher-skilled labor to this city because, let's face it, Eretria is kind of a dump. Sure, that's been partially ameliorated due to the renovation of the Divine Marriage, but other than that, we still have a dearth of culture.
 
I would rather avoid giving out wreaths easily. One victory or success should not suffice unless it is truly legendary in some way.
 
Nyvis said:
Well, everything? What am I supposed to do? :V

I'd like to make arguments and suggestions in character rather than out, but I have no idea what that entails? Seems like there's also a bit of a thing where you support people by lifting their rock?
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The lifting the rock thing is from the first quest. Relevant text in spoiler:
User Motions

In addition to the regular decisions produced for the ekklesia by circumstance or by the Boule, individual readers can introduce user motions. There are two types of user motions. The first is one that is simply a modification of an existing proposal. For instance, you want to make a trade agreement with a city instead of an alliance, but it's not an option. In that case, as long as the GM approves the motion, you can just propose it, and those who support it can copy and paste it like any write-in.

The second type are user motions unrelated to the current proposals. For example, in a vote about going to war, a participant suggests that they form an academy of war. This proposal may be motivated by the circumstances, but is a completely new proposal. To be considered by the ekklesia, the user motion needs to gain three supporters (kleftes, or lifters) who will second it. Once it has been supported by the three, it will be voted upon by the whole ekklesia and, if successful, will be treated as any other law.

Although the GM has the right to refuse any motion on the basis of it being pointless or anachronistic, in general you will have a great deal of freedom with motions. Use them wisely, as they are the most potent decision-makers you have.

As for making arguments and suggestions in character, well first you must make your character. Who is he, and what is his position in Eretria's society? Those two questions should serve as a guide for your character. The suggestions and arguments will, of course, come from you, which you must then translate into something your character would feasibly say. For example, let's say your character is a sailor and the topic is about improvements to Eretria's navy. If you want to suggest that Eretria's ships would benefit from a second mast, then you could say that in character by referring to his past experiences on single-masted ships and how they're rather flawed, but that the addition of a second mast would help fix those flaws.
 
dontpressenter's handy dandy guide to RPing in Eretria

  1. Use this name generator: Random Name Generator to generate two male Ancient Greek names . Male is important because we're talking about Ancient Greek society and women in public office is an idea that's a tad early.
  2. Choose the name you like more as your character's name and the other as your character's father. By ending your arguments in a statement like 'Thus says Alpha, son of Beta', you signify that you are speaking in character. Using italics also helps.
  3. At this point, all you have is a name and a dad. That's the bare minimum, not that different from not roleplaying at all. The best way to get the most out of roleplay is to use your desired vote to ask 'Why would he think this way?' For instance, let's take the suggestion of granting awards to exceptional allies. Why would your character support such an idea? Maybe he was fighting in one of Eretria's many battles and was saved by an ally. That would suggest your character is a soldier. Maybe your character interacts with other members of the League through trade and sees them more as peers than lessers. That would suggest he would be more of a merchant. Through your preferred choices, who your character is and what he values will begin to take shape.
  4. Don't be afraid to ask other members for pointers about how a Ancient Greek should act! An Eretrian citizen has a very different worldview and a SV poster, so getting into the right frame of mind might be tricky. Luckily, there are many in this thread who are experienced and passionate about the subject, not least our esteemed quest-master. Seriously, the extent of my knowledge about ancient Greece before I read this thread were a couple of myths, philosophers and mathematicians. The learning experience has been amazing.

I encourage all those with a voice to speak their minds in the Ekklesia. This is a place of argument and debate, and it should not fall silent, nor should it dominated by one or two people, as charismatic as they may be.

Thus speaks Heliodoros, son of Giorgios, citizen of Eretria.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Our means to incorporate the other Italiote Hellenes into our system would be a "League of Leagues", I suspect, given each of the major cities has a collection of minor tributaries, albeit not on the scale of the Epulian League.

As regards our psiloi, I'd been pushing for us to formally establish a corps of Euzonoi since the Battle of Canthra, when we first defeated Harpos and swiped a huge pile of Peuketti panopoly.

@Cetashwayo what sort of costs would be involved in designating say 500 of our better psiloi as Euzonoi and paying them a maintenance stipend? I'd assume they'd get a lower amount than the Ekdromoi.
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They'd get the same wages as Ekdromoi because their position isn't as prestigious and they're not usually already wealthy. Athenai maintained a corps of 1600 archers for naval battle but only used them on land during battles with a naval component like Sphakteria. I remain unconvinced of its utility for a city able to rely on Peuketii anyway.
 
Cetashwayo said:
They'd get the same wages as Ekdromoi because their position isn't as prestigious and they're not usually already wealthy. Athenai maintained a corps of 1600 archers for naval battle but only used them on land during battles with a naval component like Sphakteria. I remain unconvinced of its utility for a city able to rely on Peuketii anyway.
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The main argument I can see in favor of it is to have it so there is representation of each social class in the sacred bands of Eretria, to honor the most skilled at fighting in the fashion of the poorest citizens.
 
Godwinson said:
The main argument I can see in favor of it is to have it so there is representation of each social class in the sacred bands of Eretria, to honor the most skilled at fighting in the fashion of the poorest citizens.
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Well, maybe, but euzonoi would no longer be poor because they'd be paid the wages of professional craftsmen and effectively become professional soldiers, and the poor are already the people in Eretria's triremes.
 
The main argument I see for it is that we might have to put down a Peuketti or Messapii rebellion and lose access to the native auxiliaries. Which granted taking such a step of fundamental distrust toward the tributaries might be a self-fulfilling condition.
 
Cavalier said:
The main argument I see for it is that we might have to put down a Peuketti or Messapii rebellion and lose access to the native auxiliaries. Which granted taking such a step of fundamental distrust toward the tributaries might be a self-fulfilling condition.
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When Athenai lost access to the Thessalian cavalry in the 450s BCE they created their own cavalry force (well before the Hippeis Eskhata) to make up some of the difference. Which is to say that if or when you face a revolt from one of your tributaries it would make sense to establish euzonoi because you can no longer implicitly trust them. But at least so far, Eretria has been rebellion-free.
 
If we want it to work within the tributary system, how about a permanent force recruited from volunteers from our barbaroi allies and kept around the city? A sort of scout corps with the best rangers from our allies, with good knowledge of local terrain. I don't know if there's a real use case for that, but a permanent mixed force of our different vassals would be interesting at least? And it would be loyal to its paymasters, aka us.
 
Cetashwayo said:
When Athenai lost access to the Thessalian cavalry in the 450s BCE they created their own cavalry force (well before the Hippeis Eskhata) to make up some of the difference. Which is to say that if or when you face a revolt from one of your tributaries it would make sense to establish euzonoi because you can no longer implicitly trust them. But at least so far, Eretria has been rebellion-free.
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Erastos, son of Nikedemos, He Who Fears and Kills Spiders: "So what about an elephant force? You know, in case we have to fight the Carthaginians, or gods forbid, the Persians. "
 
Droman said:
Erastos, son of Nikedemos, He Who Fears and Kills Spiders: "So what about an elephant force? You know, in case we have to fight the Carthaginians, or gods forbid, the Persians. "
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No one outside the Persians is using war elephants until the Hellenistic era. The Carthaginians only start using war elephants in response to the diadokhi deploying them.
 
Cetashwayo said:
No one outside the Persians is using war elephants until the Hellenistic era. The Carthaginians only start using war elephants in response to the diadokhi deploying them.
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Erastos, son of Nikedemos, He Who Fears and Kills Spiders: "Yes, but how else will we fight and kill those strange hairy men that the Carthaginians have tamed, if not with larger and hairier beasts?"
 
Cetashwayo said:
They'd get the same wages as Ekdromoi because their position isn't as prestigious and they're not usually already wealthy. Athenai maintained a corps of 1600 archers for naval battle but only used them on land during battles with a naval component like Sphakteria. I remain unconvinced of its utility for a city able to rely on Peuketii anyway.
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Like @Godwinson said, I was thinking more along the lines of it offering our aktimones a Sacred unit to aspire to, as the hoplites have the Ekdromoi, and the aristoi the Kleos Exoria.
Nyvis said:
If we want it to work within the tributary system, how about a permanent force recruited from volunteers from our barbaroi allies and kept around the city? A sort of scout corps with the best rangers from our allies, with good knowledge of local terrain. I don't know if there's a real use case for that, but a permanent mixed force of our different vassals would be interesting at least? And it would be loyal to its paymasters, aka us.
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That would be our Skiritai, in our faux-Sparta setup.
 
FriedIce said:
I really like this idea - it's poetic. If you propose it after our next military victory I'll lift your rock.
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Thank you!

Ironanvil1 said:
Our means to incorporate the other Italiote Hellenes into our system would be a "League of Leagues", I suspect, given each of the major cities has a collection of minor tributaries, albeit not on the scale of the Epulian League.
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"Yo dawg, we heard you like Leagues..."
 
Cavalier said:
The main argument I see for it is that we might have to put down a Peuketti or Messapii rebellion and lose access to the native auxiliaries. Which granted taking such a step of fundamental distrust toward the tributaries might be a self-fulfilling condition.
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Also people seem to be forgetting the fact we're getting thousands of immigrants flooding in over the next decade or so, and most of them will end up as Psilloi anyway, not enough to replace all of the ones we throw into the Navy if we have sixty or so ships, but enough to make us not entirely reliant on the Iapgyians.
 
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Since I proposed an allies "sacred band", maybe we can propose a metic band too, to get the full gamut?

Every demographic having something to aspire to is a nice goal. Mostly joking though, this time.
 
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Nyvis said:
If we want it to work within the tributary system, how about a permanent force recruited from volunteers from our barbaroi allies and kept around the city? A sort of scout corps with the best rangers from our allies, with good knowledge of local terrain. I don't know if there's a real use case for that, but a permanent mixed force of our different vassals would be interesting at least? And it would be loyal to its paymasters, aka us.
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I am pretty sure that would be less than welcomed by our military elites and could easily become problematic since having "foreign" armed forces in the city is probably not the ideal situation for a democracy to be in. I mean there are the mysterious "scythian archers" of Athens who might have been something of a police force consisting of perhaps state-owned slaves but as I understand they are a somewhat controversial topic with not too much evidence in history and very much the exception. Even the Romans, masters of using allies, didn't have anything like that for a very long time.
 
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