. Tributary Mission: The allies of Eretria fought well during the war with Taras, but they were slow to mobilize and sometimes disorganized. It is time to create a common command structure and organization of their levies so that we can call on set amounts of their men in war, rather than counting out the number of allies that we need with each war and giving them much grief in assembling the men to do so. In doing so we will tie them closer to us and make them more effective in battle [Opens up options to reform the militaries of the allies and make them more effective].]
If you mean the military reforms, those will help only in creating a structure that the Messapii can be integrated into, not with the actual work of integrating the Messapii.
I'm going to say that both IC and OOC I feel like a big standing temple to Artemis and Orion would be rather missing the point. An appropriate site for their worship would be an area carefully left as natural as possible to stay in keeping with their themes of hunting, nature, and purity. To kill two birds with one stone, we should set up this preserved area around wherever we intend to source our water for the city from so that we don't end up polluting it with excessive human activity.
Temples are an institution that have priests and worshippers. In order to get to the point where you get a sacred grove you'd probably want a temple first.
"Would that we could send Obander among the Italiotes and Mnemnon among the Messapii, while our navy crushes the pirates within the Adriatic. Perhaps we might beg of our oligarchs to tend to more things in this time of nearing disaster! For surely that is what they are becoming, if it matters not what the will of the Ekklesia is, only what each Deme permits us to choose! I say that this is absurd, that the Demes have put the cart before the donkey, and expect the donkey to push. If we continue to bind ourselves and our city to one of three courses, with nothing between, we will embrace folly at every turn, and if we're to embrace folly, then I say why should we wait? For Proboulos, let us truly embrace the depths of folly, and select myself, Theophilos, son of Theophilos! For who else would serve as a better fool? And for our Xenoparakletor, who better to represent Eretria than the noble weasel, that truest image of our city."
A Temple to Artemis is probably a necessary condition, or at least extremely helpful, if we want to establish a sacred grove and have it become a major part of Eretria's religious rites, however.
It's understandable that as modern people, we consider "nature" themed Gods and Goddesses to be best worshipped in the beauty of nature. Certainly, sacred groves are a great way to honour a goddess like Artemis. However, established worship in temples is also integral to how the Greeks saw proper worship of their Gods and Goddesses, for a number of reasons, not least the fact that building temples is more difficult than putting garlands on trees, so it shows real devotion.
To a large extent, all the Gods and Godesses are "nature" deities - Zeus is lord of the sky and the thunders, Hephaestus of volcanoes and so on. The ancients would not see as hard a distinction here as we do, because they were not all urbanites or as separated from the natural world as we are today.
So if we do want to help promote a cult of Artemis and a divine union of Orion and Artemis, and establish a sacred grove to Artemis outside our walls, I think the Temple will be extremely helpful, perhaps crucial doing so.
If it's a matter of spending money and effort to show devotion, it seems to me that could be accomplished through something like (to use the example that first came to my mind) the Japanese garden tradition, wherein the goal is to craft an artificial space that appears more perfectly natural than a genuine natural space would, if that makes sense. Certainly there would be some structure for worship, but it would be more of a place for the priests to keep gardening and hunting supplies and to train disciples than it would be a grand structure like the Temple to the Divine Marriage would be.
Because it's not just the nature aspect that argues for this approach to an Artemis/Orion site, it's that they're also deities of hunting (which requires things to hunt and space to hunt in) and purity (which implies a certain degree of unspoiled surroundings that you're just not going to find in the middle of a city, not unless you actively set aside a substantial area within the city as a park).
On a different subject, Poseidon's temple in our city probably is a bit different not merely because it's shared with Demeter, but also because Eretria probably puts a bit more emphasis on his role as the god of horses than the mainland Greek cities would have. Similarly, the Demeter side would include some acknowledgement of the way we farm sea creatures like byssus shells and murex snails, incidentally tying her more firmly to Poseidon in the process.
That's all well in good, but in practice, in the religious context of Eretria, if we want to do things like that, an established Temple is probably a necessary pre-condition. This is what provides the infrastructure and official worship necessary, and whilst worship in nature is fantastic, temples are actually highly important to Greek religious practices.
See @Cetashwayo's post directly above, if you missed it.
Citizens, we find ourselves divided, as well we might at such a crossroads. But before deciding on our path, we should remember the hard road we have walked to get here.
We went to war with overreaching Taras to save the liberty of the Mesapii. We humbled the treacherous Dauni king's dreams of attacking us, and made friends amongst the reasonable barbaroi. We won the contest, and agreed to a fair peace afterwards, that we might preserve the brotherhood of all Greeks in Italia. We did these things not because they were easy, but because they were just.
Let us remember what we fought for, and bled for, and left brothers and sons on the field of Ares for. Let us remember, so that we do not throw their sacrifice away now, leaving the task undone. Already, I see many here running like young pups towards the next exciting distraction. Yet much hard work remains to be done, to secure the victory we have won.
We did not go to war to see Taras destroyed, nor agree to a fair peace that left them so unharmed only to see them rise up against us again. It is imperative that we secure a lasting fraternity and respect amongst all Greeks in Italia. Unending strife between fellow Greeks profits none but our enemies, as we see from the horrors in Hellas. If we do not make a good peace with Taras, a peace with honour and friendship, the fools who poisoned their ears against us will do so again in time. What will we have fought for, then? We must turn our victory into lasting friendship, or it will have been for nothing.
These shepherds who trouble the Etruscans may one day come like wolves to raid our sheepfolds, and only a united Italia will drive them off.
We have fought a war for the the freedom of the Mesapii. Now we must find mutual prosperity in peace. Trade with the barbaroi is prudent, as bonds of prosperity may tie us together in friendship just as surely as those of alliance. Whatever the strange customs of these butter-eaters, let them bring their cows here, for I appreciate the taste of good beef all the same! These cattle trails may be the foundation of more trade between our peoples, and so all shall prosper. The addition to our revenues will be much appreciated, before we hear more talk of costly endeavours like grand expeditions and great constructions.
Of course, no cost is too great too properly honour the Gods, as we shall atop the Hill of the Divine Marriage. And what better Temple to add to the constellation honouring the Divine Olympians than one to Artemis, who has favoured Eretria since before our flight across the sea, and watches over us still? It augurs well that the barbaroi too love the Huntress, for what better bonds may join us with our new friends than those of sacred devotion? I say the proposal to establish a Sacred Grove of Artemis outside our walls for joint sacrifices has much merit.
So too must we thank the smaller gods who have watched over our farms and fields since we came to this new land. It is only grateful to officially endorse their festivals, and just as they have blessed our births and harvests, we must honour them. The confusion that has thrown our sacred calendar into disarray cannot be allowed to continue, for incompetence in making religious observances is the same as impiety! We have tempted the patience of the Gods long enough.
We must choose the policies that best address our needs now. Geometry is all well and good, as is a better phalanx. But do we desperately need either now? Citizenship for colonists is a fine idea, and the pirates must eventually earn their due reward. But we should get our own house in order, before we go adventuring upon the Adriatic.
We have fought the war, and won it. Now we must win the peace.
Antipatrid foreign policy is important but is it critical now? Consider: We are safe from Taras for 20 years. The situation in Sicily is beginning to fray, but has not exploded yet and we are a secondary actor there compared to the Sikeliotes. And we can take the Italiote diplomacy as an additional option.
Kerkyra is an opportunity right now that we will not be able to do later. Everything else in the Drakonid slate is also very useful, and colonies in particular need to be started on faster to make them grow strong faster. But if we start colonising later, and don't act on Kerkyra now, we will face tough competition for the Adriatic. Now is our opportunity to truly rule it.
Believe me, I know the draw of the Drakonid faction because I much prefer Adriatic business to this meddling all around Sicily and Italia; however, it is my sincere belief that it is in fact critical now. Taras just had the peace faction take over, but there's still terrible frustration with us; the sooner we take advantage of the opportunity to bury the ax, the more sincere our intentions will appear. If we don't make peace with Taras a priority, they're likely to assume it's not and act accordingly, gearing up for another war and hardening their hearts so that they may reclaim what's rightfully theirs. Furthermore, gaining control over Kerkyra and then trying to invade Lykai with Taras would not synergize well; Lykai was established by Kerkyra and is friendly to it, so liberating Kerkyra to make a friendly government there and THEN wresting Lykai from their control would erode away the goodwill we achieve.
Additionally, no, the situation in Sicily is not "beginning to fray". Syrakousai and our allies the Sikeliote League are already at war. The upcoming conference at Gela will decide the true victor, and we want our weight and force behind a peace as favorable to our allies as we may manage. If we just let Syrakousai nibble away at them, the balance of power will shift starkly away from the Sikeliotes and we and Thurii will in the future be required to invest much more of our own military, treasure and focus in an effort to constrain Syrakousai. If we take the Drakonid Xenoparakletor option, we'll be stirring up a hornet's nest on Kerkyra against Korinth-aligned oligarchs while Syrakousai eats up one of our allies and Taras takes advantage of the peace to nurse its grudge- I really, really do not want to be in a situation where we get 3/3 hostile relations for the major enemy factions and our only major allies are half-consumed. It would be my absolute favorite option of what was available if we had done the reasonable thing at the start and allied with Athens while setting Korinth as our enemy; however, we decided it would be thematically best or whatever to go up against Syrakousai as well as to anger Taras who together sandwich our only major allies so it's really unwise to ignore the goings on in the southwest.
"Ah, but how foolish of me, to forget to explain the policies of Demos Galê! Please, fellow citizens, allow me to correct this oversight immediately after another election four years hence. Wait, no, that would be foolish! I shall do so immediately!"
Demos Galê
Current Goals at Home
Civic Policy: For too long we have gone without recognizing those most vital and sacred of institutions, our Demes. To this end, all of our buildings must be rebuilt to have three walls, and only three walls, for surely there can be no need for a fourth of anything! [What can men do in the face of such reckless foolishness?]
Emigration Policy: Eretria finds herself in need of manpower, clearly the best solution is to find places which would be willing to accept our people as metics, and then leave the city, for what better way is there to strengthen our city! [What are you doing, this is nonsense.]
Great Work Addition (Temple of Eris): We must honor the goddess whose patronages surely has been given to our Demes, that of Eris! We will plant three apple trees in the temple dedicated to her, and surely this will suffice to feed the whole of Eretria! [Additional year added to Hill of the Divine Marriage construction, cost increased to 660 talents, 117 talents a turn for four turns including 349 OL.].
Current Goals Abroad
Xenoparakletor Mission: Hunt for rodents. Perhaps hunt a chicken or two, if she's feeling mischievous. Maybe ruin a wedding, out of spite. Who knows? Certainly not our allies!
Ah, a fellow man of culture. Yeah, difficult decisions are the ones that prompt the most discussion and involve the most ephemeral concepts a lot of the time. Which is always nice.
That's all well in good, but in practice, in the religious context of Eretria, if we want to do things like that, an established Temple is probably a necessary pre-condition. This is what provides the infrastructure and official worship necessary, and whilst worship in nature is fantastic, temples are actually highly important to Greek religious practices.
See @Cetashwayo's post directly above, if you missed it.
And said temple would be better placed outside our walls near the eventual location of said sacred grove, rather than in the heart of the city where there's no room for such.
Within the city, better to provide the actual patron deities of the polis a truly splendid temple than to half-ass their temple so that we might place another temple that will be half-assed by default.
And said temple would be better placed outside our walls near the eventual location of said sacred grove, rather than in the heart of the city where there's no room for such.
Within the city, better to provide the actual patron deities of the polis a truly splendid temple than to half-ass their temple so that we might place another temple that will be half-assed by default.
And said temple would be better placed outside our walls near the eventual location of said sacred grove, rather than in the heart of the city where there's no room for such.
Within the city, better to provide the actual patron deities of the polis a truly splendid temple than to half-ass their temple so that we might place another temple that will be half-assed by default.
What's wrong with having a sacred grove in the midst of a city? We don't have an incredibly dense population nor very built up and splendid buildings, it's fairly straightforward to make room as needed at this point.
And said temple would be better placed outside our walls near the eventual location of said sacred grove, rather than in the heart of the city where there's no room for such.
Within the city, better to provide the actual patron deities of the polis a truly splendid temple than to half-ass their temple so that we might place another temple that will be half-assed by default.
The problem I foresee with the Temple of Artemis, given previous Eretrian religious developments, is the difficulties inherent in sourcing a "unicorn" without all our priests getting trampled by an irritated pachyderm.
What's wrong with having a sacred grove in the midst of a city? We don't have an incredibly dense population nor very built up and splendid buildings, it's fairly straightforward to make room as needed at this point.
Room enough for hunting? Remember that this is a shrine to Artemis and Orion; being able to conduct a ritual hunt each year at minimum seems the sort of thing we'd want, and for that we need enough space for it to not just be a canned hunt.
If centered on our future primary water source (to ensure a zone around it remains undeveloped enough that the water is still clean when it reaches the city) it'll have to be outside the walls anyway. And quite frankly it's not our primary temple, nor is it likely to be full of expensive golden loot; if anything, looting and burning it would just piss off the local barbaroi and further align them with us, given that it would become one of their pilgrimage centers (which is another reason to keep it outside our walls, since even a polis as accepting as ours still has limits on how many barbaroi it wants stomping around inside it).
The problem I foresee with the Temple of Artemis, given previous Eretrian religious developments, is the difficulties inherent in sourcing a "unicorn" without all our priests getting trampled by an irritated pachyderm.
I was thinking more "deer and boar" than "elephants and rhinoceroses," but then again I suppose semi-wild "unicorns", "thunderbirds", and whatever the hell the Greeks would make of giraffes would be a way to make our sacred grove really stand out.
Believe me, I know the draw of the Drakonid faction because I much prefer Adriatic business to this meddling all around Sicily and Italia; however, it is my sincere belief that it is in fact critical now. Taras just had the peace faction take over, but there's still terrible frustration with us; the sooner we take advantage of the opportunity to bury the ax, the more sincere our intentions will appear. If we don't make peace with Taras a priority, they're likely to assume it's not and act accordingly, gearing up for another war and hardening their hearts so that they may reclaim what's rightfully theirs. Furthermore, gaining control over Kerkyra and then trying to invade Lykai with Taras would not synergize well; Lykai was established by Kerkyra and is friendly to it, so liberating Kerkyra to make a friendly government there and THEN wresting Lykai from their control would erode away the goodwill we achieve.
Additionally, no, the situation in Sicily is not "beginning to fray". Syrakousai and our allies the Sikeliote League are already at war. The upcoming conference at Gela will decide the true victor, and we want our weight and force behind a peace as favorable to our allies as we may manage. If we just let Syrakousai nibble away at them, the balance of power will shift starkly away from the Sikeliotes and we and Thurii will in the future be required to invest much more of our own military, treasure and focus in an effort to constrain Syrakousai. If we take the Drakonid Xenoparakletor option, we'll be stirring up a hornet's nest on Kerkyra against Korinth-aligned oligarchs while Syrakousai eats up one of our allies and Taras takes advantage of the peace to nurse its grudge- I really, really do not want to be in a situation where we get 3/3 hostile relations for the major enemy factions and our only major allies are half-consumed. It would be my absolute favorite option of what was available if we had done the reasonable thing at the start and allied with Athens while setting Korinth as our enemy; however, we decided it would be thematically best or whatever to go up against Syrakousai as well as to anger Taras who together sandwich our only major allies so it's really unwise to ignore the goings on in the southwest.
Keeping in mind that we can still go for either Taras or Sicily even with Drakonids, I am more under the impression that the Sikeliotes, are roughly a match for Syrakousai and so their skirmishing hasn't been decisive yet and they have a fair chance at doing well without us. And I figure the war with Taras is very recent so diplomacy with them now is less likely to be successful than after 5-10 years once emotions have cooled down and the peace faction has had time to settle.
Keeping in mind that we can still go for either Taras or Sicily even with Drakonids, I am more under the impression that the Sikeliotes, are roughly a match for Syrakousai and so their skirmishing hasn't been decisive yet and they have a fair chance at doing well without us. And I figure the war with Taras is very recent so diplomacy with them now is less likely to be successful than after 5-10 years once emotions have cooled down and the peace faction has had time to settle.
It makes little sense to avoid the near-certain upsides of settling matters with Syracuse and Taras, in exchange for a very risky adventure in Kerkyra that has huge potential downsides combined with fairly minimal upside.
At best, we get a neutral/friendly Kerkyra.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 2, 2019 at 4:10 PM, finished with 368 posts and 89 votes.
...Kerkyra would be a prize in the hands of either side of the Peloponnesian War. For Athens it's useful as a counterweight to Corinth (their enemy). For Sparta it's useful because they need all the ships they can get to blunt the Athenian naval advantage.
Basically, if we have influence over Kerkyra, we become a target, because we have something prized by either side of the war, and we lack the strength to reliably prevent either side from taking it away from us if they choose to do so.
The pivotal question is, will Taras react by thinking "you know, there really isn't much point in fighting Eretria, that's water under the bridge and we have better things to do?"
Or by spending the next 20 years building up weapons and training troops to attack us in Sallentine War 2: Muscle-Powered Boogaloo?
The answer to that question will hinge in large part on how we handle the immediate aftermath of the war with them. Four years from now, a lot of their reactions to the war will already be set in stone. Possibly literally if temple carvings or the like are involved.
It's going to be a lot easier to deal with the Sicilian situation before it explodes than to pick up the pieces after it explodes.
...You do realize that Kerkyra and Korinth have existed for centuries, right? These cities aren't new, and if anything the degree to which they're preoccupied with events in mainland Greece because of the war will make them LESS likely to expand much into the Adriatic.
Note that historically, the Kerkyrans and Corinthians did NOT wind up building up stable dominance of the Adriatic during this time frame...
I would say that since Kerkyra would obviously fight against any attempt to break their neutrality, both sides of the war may well decide they'd rather not have another dangerous enemy for potentially getting that enemy on their side after fighting them, weakening them and making them less useful plus annoyed.
Taras chose the peace party into power, so they don't appear to be immediately going full revanchism on us.
The war is a passing thing that will end in time. If we end with a strong Corinth and no alliance with Kerkyra, we don't get to dominate the Adriatic. If we get Athens in the Adriatic through Kerkyra after they win the war, we also don't get to dominate the Adriatic. If things go historically, then we have a chance though Corinth may be an issue. But things may well not go historically.
It makes little sense to avoid the near-certain upsides of settling matters with Syracuse and Taras, in exchange for a very risky adventure in Kerkyra that has huge potential downsides combined with fairly minimal upside.
At best, we get a neutral/friendly Kerkyra.
Syracuse and Taras are playing defense. If we succeed there, we get a peaceful western border. We might get that without such a large investment of opportunity cost.
The potential upside (best case) with Kerkyra is a pacified eastern border plus strong ally, weakened rivals and headstart in the region where we have the most potential for future strength.
So essentially, the risks are greater, but so are the rewards.
As @Cavalier said, a lot of the challenge of this game is about choosing the right options, at the right time.
Both the domestic slates of the Antipatrid faction and the Drakonid faction provide some nice policies. The Drakonid slate I actually prefer a little more, because it has quite a cohesive focus; it enables colonisation and trade, and endeavours to address our social issues by exporting our poorest as colonists. But the Antipatrid slate has some individually nice picks, with military reform and the Pythagoreans, even if they do not form a cohesive whole as such. However, none of them fulfill a pressing need right now.
The reason I am voting the way I am, and why I have been so insistent on this, is because I believe the Exorian slate provides the best policies for right now.
We fought and won a war to keep the Mesapii free and gain their allegiance, and we also spent diplomatic capital to prevent the Dauni attacking and ally with their friendly cities. It would be wasting that investment then, not to begin strengthening ties with our barbaroi allies, who are probably our single greatest advantage compared to any other city in Italia. The benefits of trade and joint religious observances in terms of developing and strengthening ties only get stronger over time. (The money is also nice.) The sooner we start, the better.
Moreover, we know that right now we are facing a crisis of faith, and a need to show our proper devotion to the Gods. Regularizing our religious observances and festivals seems, frankly, incredibly important in that context. What use is having new temples when we are not celebrating any of our holy days at the right time?
The Exorian slate provides the right policies, for the right time, and that time is now.
edit: I do still believe we need to make some serious work on the hill itself at some point, tough. The Divine Mariage is too important for our soft power for us to not take better care of its main center of worship.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 2, 2019 at 4:26 PM, finished with 371 posts and 89 votes.
Room enough for hunting? Remember that this is a shrine to Artemis and Orion; being able to conduct a ritual hunt each year at minimum seems the sort of thing we'd want, and for that we need enough space for it to not just be a canned hunt.
We can perfectly well have hunting out in our relatively wild lands further off without having people trampling their way through a sacred grove from year to year. Are ritual hunts even a big component of Artemis worship?
Keeping in mind that we can still go for either Taras or Sicily even with Drakonids, I am more under the impression that the Sikeliotes, are roughly a match for Syrakousai and so their skirmishing hasn't been decisive yet and they have a fair chance at doing well without us. And I figure the war with Taras is very recent so diplomacy with them now is less likely to be successful than after 5-10 years once emotions have cooled down and the peace faction has had time to settle.
I'd really rather not choose between them. Say we placate Taras- regardless, we're still letting Syrakousai do as it will to erode the Sikeliote League, and we don't get in contact with the southwestern Italiote cities that we need to have friendly relations with to have land military access. We're allowing the Italiote powers to see the writing on the wall that things are changing in Sicily and that the Thurii + Sikeliote League + Eretria combo is on the diminishing side in that region, they may reevaluate and try to slip moreso on the side of the prevailing team. Alternately if we shore up things in Sicily, we're still leaving not bothering to influence the Italiotes which again has that military access issue and we're allowing the situation with Taras to fester.
The Sikeliotes used to be a match for Syrakousai, at the start, when it seemed credible that we would all act in unison and the threat of such drove Syrakousai to pay fines. However, since then Eretria has focused her attentions elsewhere, and our non-involvement changed the calculus such that Syrakousai and the Sikeliote League alike didn't believe that the Sikeliote League would win alone. See the updates from 348 OL onward:
In Sicily, a dispute over a sacred grove has almost exploded into war between Syrakousai and the Sikeliote League. This time the Sikeliotes, weakened by the distraction of their allies against Taras, have been forced to pay an indemnity.
In Sicily, an outbreak of fighting between Syrakousai and the Sikeliote League has led the city of Gela to declare a general Sicilian congress. Cities from across southern Italia and Sicily itself are invited to arbitrate the dispute between Syrakousai and the Sikeliote League, as has been the tradition on the island since the common peace first prevailed. Many violations of the peace have taken place, but have always been confirmed by a congress of the cities, and so it may be once more.
Recall the text on Syrakousai from when we foolishly selected it as our permanent enemy.
Syrakousai. There are many reasons for Syrakousai and Eretria to despise each other. From the exploits of Herodion, who rode with Carthage against this great Sicilian city, to the harboring of Ionian refugees from Syrakousai by Eretria after the refugees were expelled from their cities, the two regional hegemons have become implacable enemies. Syrakousai, though a democracy, seeks to restore its empire in Sicily by making war against its neighbors; Eretria has, time and again, prevented that by funding its enemies and promoting the formation of new coalitions against it. Now, with new leaders in Syrakousai and a stronger diplomatic focus in the city, it aims to turn Sicily against Carthage and the Sikeliote League in order to finally break its power, and perhaps, to cross over into Italy and take revenge...
Unlike us, Syrakousai has taken a clear diplomatic focus in the region, and will be trying to flip the powers of Sicily against our allies. If they've convinced enough of Sicily, the Sikeliote League may be sundered as a force that can locally stand up to Syrakousai. Once that is done, it's going to become much harder to intervene against them in any way.
I cannot give my assent to looking at this precarious position we find ourselves in and then willfully drawing the ire of Korinth. We are not such a great power that we can afford to be diplomatically surrounded on all sides.
