Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[Skippy]

I really need to create a character voice for this quest.

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I just googled Ancient Greek names, there are a number of lexicons online, although I eventually went for more of a nickname, which is allowed. A lot of Greek names mean things. Generally our naming conventions are along the lines of:
"{name} son of {dad's name and possibly region of origin}"

The only other thing is to come up with an idea of what kind of person you represent in Eretria. Although of course you may want to leave it vague to begin with, and let that come together over time.

If you bug @Cetashwayo, he might be willing to make a guide on how to pick character names, and some sources to use, which might be helpful for a lot of players actually.

 

[kilopi505]

I just googled Ancient Greek names, there are a number of lexicons online, although I eventually went for more of a nickname, which is allowed. A lot of Greek names mean things. Generally our naming conventions are along the lines of:
"{name} son of {dad's name and possibly region of origin}"

The only other thing is to come up with an idea of what kind of person you represent in Eretria. Although of course you may want to leave it vague to begin with, and let that come together over time.

If you bug @Cetashwayo, he might be willing to make a guide on how to pick character names, and some sources to use, which might be helpful for a lot of players actually.

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Uwah. So I'm the only one that went for Thracian names and suffixes?

 

[Skippy]

Uwah. So I'm the only one that went for Thracian names and suffixes?

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Hey, I think that was a really interesting touch that added a lot of diversity to Eretria! It got your character mentioned in a discussion in one of the updates, even. Bonus points for putting the effort in.

 

[Void Stalker]

I just googled Ancient Greek names, there are a number of lexicons online, although I eventually went for more of a nickname, which is allowed. A lot of Greek names mean things. Generally our naming conventions are along the lines of:
"{name} son of {dad's name and possibly region of origin}"

The only other thing is to come up with an idea of what kind of person you represent in Eretria. Although of course you may want to leave it vague to begin with, and let that come together over time.

If you bug @Cetashwayo, he might be willing to make a guide on how to pick character names, and some sources to use, which might be helpful for a lot of players actually.

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Names are easy, who the person is that is the hard part.

 

[kilopi505]

Hey, I think that was a really interesting touch that added a lot of diversity to Eretria! It got your character mentioned in a discussion in one of the updates, even. Bonus points for putting the effort in.

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Here's my source.

Thracian language - Index

Site owner seems to be a Bulgarian. Seems to have Duridanov's permission to copy Duridanov's 1976 book about the Thracian Language.

 

[Skippy]

Names are easy, who the person is that is the hard part.

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That's true. Sometimes it can be a good idea to pick a name, and let their character evolve as the game goes on; a number of characters in the last game started out that way I think. Although, if you're stuck, the Demes can provide a good shorthand for situating your character in Eretrian society. They each represent a couple of key demographics.

For example, I imagined Arktos as a middling farmer and breeder of horses from the border countries, whose father was a formidable and famous frontiersman, and ended up going into public life after his (inherited) business ventures grew well. His main leisure pursuits are hunting and wrestling, as well as breeding his pack of gregarious wolfhounds, which he insists is purely a business venture even though he has yet to make a profit in fifteen years. He also enjoys philosophy and letters, and writing poetry, although he is secretly embarrassed that he learned to read relatively late in life due to circumstances.

In terms of demographics, Arktos would be solidly Exorian, but he has enough of an involvement in city business to have a strong Drakonid leaning as well, and he respects the Antipatrids for their commitment to culture.

But honestly if you want to start with "a hoplite and smalltime farmer", or "a merchant and former rower", then that's more than enough. Most of Arktos' character is only something I've worked out over the last few updates. @Ironanvil1's character Sideros in the last game had a character brief which could be summed up as "a blacksmith", and he ended up more or less transforming Eretria's entire governmental structure and saving the city from a descent into tyranny during the timeskip.

 

[bryanfran36]

@Cetashwayo what is the difference between Eretrian nobility/aristocracy and other typical Greek poleis nobles?

I am RP'ing as one of them so I gotta get the voice and outlook right.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Leukos son of Pytheas, more commonly thought of as "Leukos the Accountant," has made a career out of quick, precise handwriting and an easy facility with figures. He's kept books for businesses small and large, accompanied several sea-voyages, and helped keep track of the army's logistics, such as they were, during the expedition against Taras.

During one of the merchant voices, an improbable and hilarious mishap resulted in his nose being smashed wide by an oar-butt. He is sometimes known as "Simon," or "flat-nosed," since that day.

 

[butchock]

Hmmm... roleplaying as an animal breeder, from rabbits to birds, to hounds and pigs, and currently trying to find a way to breed fishes to corner the fishing industry. Has a pet raven and weasel who suggests who he should support and when to invest in things.

Edit: yes, he is kinda eccentric, thanks for asking!

 

[Godwinson]

Theophilos is a very well-off hoplite farmer, whose lands are right at the point where he could attempt the climb up to an aristocrat, but he would be too heavily impoverished as a result of the expense of maintaining a horse and the other necessaries (something he hopes to rectify before his son inherits). He was born shortly after the founding of Eretria Eskhata, the son of Theophilos, who was at that time a young man, one of the six-hundred hoplites sent to race back to Eretria at the end of the Battle of Bare Road and then became one of the first Ekdromoi (though he did not distinguish himself further among such capable comrades). His grandfather, also named Theophilos, was a hoplite who fought against the Persians, and died in that battle. He has a son (named Theophilos), who is a genial, though odd, youth who was just barely too young to attend this ekklesia.

Theophilos is well known among his friends for his cheerfully pessimistic demeanor, as well as his blunt piety in favor of Hades, both of which are most aptly summarized by a not-uncommon remark from him, that "I'll be dead longer than I'm alive, so I'd rather Hades think kindly of me on my arrival."

Politically, he had been a mostly-reliable Drakonid, as was his father before him, seeing trade as a route to increased wealth for the city as a whole, as well as its merchants. The poor results of the Sallentine Campaign, and the election that followed, have left him agitating for reforms in a particularly absurd, mocking fashion.

 

[Cetashwayo]

@Cetashwayo what is the difference between Eretrian nobility/aristocracy and other typical Greek poleis nobles?

I am RP'ing as one of them so I gotta get the voice and outlook right.

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That depends on what kind of noble we're talking about here. Although land wealth remains the main way to maintain nobility due to the mostly agricultural nature of Eretrian trade, how that wealth is emphasized varies wildly among the nobility. Some are wealthy but boorish frontiersmen with large serf estates, others deliberately cultivate images as proper Hellenes, and still others are industrious, out and about, and constantly seeking out new commercial ventures and so stay in the city with houses in the greatly desired neighborhood of Old Bare near the city's landing. Many of the families here are "founding families" and have accrued great wealth, whilst generally being Drakonid.

The Antipatrids prefer the south side of the city, nearer to the institutions of state and the gymnasium of the ekdromoi though they also have many supporters in Old Bare, whilst the Exoria, when they're in the city, are in the sparsely populated western half among the Pasture of Exiles, the official stables of the Kleos Exoria. Of the three, Drakonid nobility tend to spend the most time in the city due to their commercial investments, and Exoria the least due to their heavily land-based (and especially wheat) wealth.

 

[butchock]

@Cetashwayo if i may ask, how big are the horses at this time period by the way? How much can they carry? Also how advanced is the fishing industry? (I.e. fish pens and the like,) the poultry, pork and rabbit meat industry? How big do they need to be to feed the entire city? Are there experiments in terms of messenger birds during this time?

Edit: how expensive is it to supply "thunderbirds" to the temple?

 

[Godwinson]

@Cetashwayo if i may ask, how big are the horses at this time period by the way? How much can they carry? Also how advanced is the fishing industry? (I.e. fish pens and the like,) the poultry, pork and rabbit meat industry? How big do they need to be to feed the entire city? Are there experiments in terms of messenger birds during this time?

Edit: how expensive is it to supply "thunderbirds" to the temple?

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We're still about two centuries out from the earliest horses big enough, with riders skilled enough, and saddles designed well enough, for proper heavy cavalry (that is, able to perform a cavalry charge) to exist. Horses in this period would be considered laughable by the equestrian-minded warriors of Medieval Europe... but Medieval Europe had the advantage of nearly two thousand years of additional artificial selection.

Fishing is fairly solid by this time period, with any real constraints being more on the size, seaworthiness, and speed of the ship, and the navigation know-how of the sailors, more than anything about the actual acts of fishing itself.

Poultry, pork, and rabbit have never been the primary staples for feeding an entire city, due to the simple fact that, as a rule of thumb, it takes ten pounds of grains to produce a pound of meat. All of those are going to be supplementary, due to the basic nature of agriculture.

Messenger birds aren't as useful as certain fantasy series might imply, largely due to the fact that they're prone to being killed en-route, they mainly tend to just fly to a particular point (which would require expensive repeated travel to that location), and they can't carry very much in the way of news to make it worthwhile.

 

[dontpressenter]

Development of Heliodoros as a character:

1st vote I did was to provoke a war with Taras. This suggests that Heliodoros is young enough not to have seen battle yet and thus more keen to prove his worth that way.

Trait gained! Young...ish.

2nd vote I did was to support a decisive clash with hoplites over the skirmish/naval maneuvers, suggesting that Heliodoros is a man neither of the horse nor the waves. Following on from the first vote, he cares quite a bit about how the other Hellenic cities see Eretria, and by extension himself.

Trait gained! Hop to it, hoplite!
Trait gained! It's a Hellas of a thing.

3rd vote was for peace, suggesting that even though the desire for glory is there, Heliodoros doesn't seek to completely destroy his enemies. It also might suggest that he might have a farm to get back to.

Trait gained! I can win without others failing.
Trait gained! Look, the industrial revolution is like, more than 2000 years away.


And so on and so forth. The main point is that Heliodoros is very much a work in progress and picks up traits as he goes along. I don't even know what he might do for fun or what exactly he might farm. Maybe such things will reveal themselves in time.

 

[Orisha91]

I think we should be more optimistic about how we'll be received by the peace party in Taras. I think they'll certainly catch wind of Eretria not interfering with the troubles going on at Kerkyra by pulling away from Drakonid intervention.

This should go well with the peace we offered as well as the deal we are about to make them concerning Lykai.

So, I can see relations warming again and burying the hatchet.

 

[Godwinson]

Hmmm... roleplaying as an animal breeder, from rabbits to birds, to hounds and pigs, and currently trying to find a way to breed fishes to corner the fishing industry. Has a pet raven and weasel who suggests who he should support and when to invest in things.

Edit: yes, he is kinda eccentric, thanks for asking!

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Something that you'll want to keep in mind for your character, people in this era didn't actually understand how heredity worked very well and there was often a religious requirement that the best specimens be offered up as sacrifices (rather than retained for breeding as long as possible). Additionally, in order to have "animal breeder" as a thing that he does, he's going to need to be an aristocrat in order to support his breeding hobbies. And, uh, based on him apparently being a bit insane, it'll need to be a agricultural, as anything less consistent (and thus less independent of his insanity) would see him go broke pretty quickly.

 

[butchock]

Something that you'll want to keep in mind for your character, people in this era didn't actually understand how heredity worked very well and there was often a religious requirement that the best specimens be offered up as sacrifices (rather than retained for breeding as long as possible). Additionally, in order to have "animal breeder" as a thing that he does, he's going to need to be an aristocrat in order to support his breeding hobbies. And, uh, based on him apparently being a bit insane, it'll need to be a agricultural, as anything less consistent (and thus less independent of his insanity) would see him go broke pretty quickly.

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Yup, that's why he's in favor of the Exorias platform

 

[Chopak]

Something that you'll want to keep in mind for your character, people in this era didn't actually understand how heredity worked very well and there was often a religious requirement that the best specimens be offered up as sacrifices (rather than retained for breeding as long as possible). Additionally, in order to have "animal breeder" as a thing that he does, he's going to need to be an aristocrat in order to support his breeding hobbies. And, uh, based on him apparently being a bit insane, it'll need to be a agricultural, as anything less consistent (and thus less independent of his insanity) would see him go broke pretty quickly.

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On the other hand, he may not actually be crazy, but people give you less weird looks when you say your weasel said so than when you say you're breeding animals based on hereditary traits. Former is eccentric and the latter is just plain stupid

 

[inawarminister]

We're still about two centuries out from the earliest horses big enough, with riders skilled enough, and saddles designed well enough, for proper heavy cavalry (that is, able to perform a cavalry charge) to exist. Horses in this period would be considered laughable by the equestrian-minded warriors of Medieval Europe... but Medieval Europe had the advantage of nearly two thousand years of additional artificial selection.

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Actually...
Nisean horse - Wikipedia

"In front of the king went first a thousand horsemen, picked men of the Persian nation - then spearmen a thousand, likewise chosen troops, with their spearheads pointing towards the ground - next ten of the sacred horses called Nisaean, all daintily caparisoned. (Now these horses are called Nisaean, because they come from the Nisaean plain, a vast flat in Media, producing horses of unusual size.)"- Herodotus, Histories (430BCE)

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Nearly all cataphract units levied by Persians, Seleucids, Parthians, and East Romans used this breed; so technically people of this era can already make heavy lancing cavalry complete with horse barding now, we'd just need to, you know, steal Persia's most proudly-held state secret breeds and transport it all the way from Persis to Megale Hellas.
... Doable?

Spoiler: Supposedly a Nisean horseman under the employ of King Darius.

Nevermind, the Laconics can buy them directly from Persepolis, why can't we?

The Nisean horse was so sought after, that the Greeks (mainly, the Spartans) imported Nisean horses and bred them to their native stock, and many nomadic tribes, (such as the Scythians) in and around the Persian Empire also imported, captured, or stole Nisean horses.

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[Erandil]

I admit I am a bit surprised by how violently our citizenship and military brotherhoods seem to opposed to mercenaries and I am honestly struggling find it entirely believable since it seems a massive overreaction and somewhat at odds with our tendency to use native allies and the like but okay seems like I have to accept that mercenaries are out.

 

[Ironanvil1]

I admit I am a bit surprised by how violently our citizenship and military brotherhoods seem to opposed to mercenaries and I am honestly struggling find it entirely believable since it seems a massive overreaction and somewhat at odds with our tendency to use native allies and the like but okay seems like I have to accept that mercenaries are out.

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The exercise of violence on behalf of the community is a big status marker of citizenship - you're proving your devotion to the city in blood, and your worthiness to the status you hold in that community.
I could see that in a city like Eretria, of refugees who fought brutally for everything they now have, paying someone without that devotion to come fight for you for mere money could be viewed negatively.

 

[Murska]

On the other hand, we are Eretria. We can push for mercenaries in time if we want to focus on it. I just don't see why we'd want to.

 

[Void Stalker]

I have voted Darkonia consistently mainly because I like the policies though the first cycle there was also a bit of making sure they had some support and were not shut out of the elections though they ended up that way.

It makes me feel like as a a character I would either be a merchant or working a trade that deals with the merchants given my concerns over piracy, control of the adriatic, setting up colonies and trade reforms that they have proposed.

It also makes me worry a bit that Drakonia despite offering choices we need will never win xeno as they are focused more on trade and colonial game which to some do not seem as important as engagement with other cities and tribes.

This despite the fact that we are seeming to plateau on hoplites since we gave out all the public land that we could and there is only so much land outside the walls we can expand into.

Colonies on the other hand would have new land made available for people to own and become hoplites that we could then call upon but it will take time for colonies to grow which means we probably need them in place a decade or so before we want to call on their forces to have a meaningful number from them.

Which does increase the urgency of gaining them even if it is not something that is readily apparent.

Not to mention that it can take a while for them to exploit trade goods in there area that then flow through Etria and money is needed to supply our war needs as well as needs in times of peace. I can recall last quest how we were always slow to build due to limited funds and could never reach that point of 2 buildings going at once.

 

[Deadly Snark]

I admit I am a bit surprised by how violently our citizenship and military brotherhoods seem to opposed to mercenaries and I am honestly struggling find it entirely believable since it seems a massive overreaction and somewhat at odds with our tendency to use native allies and the like but okay seems like I have to accept that mercenaries are out.

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Mercs fight for money but have no real loyalty otherwise. And mercs that aren't paid can violently turn on their former employer.

Citizen and vassal militia have a degree of loyalty and more importantly have more levers of control for the polis to influence.

There is really nothing surprising about it. Our native allies can be seen as our hunting dogs that we broke to our will and trained to be loyal to us. There is a process and history there that makes them trustworthy in our citizens eyes. Mercs are wild packs of wolves. Dangerous and unpredictable and will only be satiated by meat that you need. You wouldn't trust a wild wolf to guard your house or yourself in your sleep.

Furthermore defending the polis is a sacred communal act and duty. To pay mercs is an insult to our citizens who sees fighting and dying for the city as their responsibility. It insults the sacred defense of the city and insults the people and our native allies by insinuating that these strangers who share no communal bonds with any of them can better protect their communities and their family.

Furthermore if Mercs are the ones fighting it also means that they get all the loot and glory and thus that our citizens and allies will get no loot and glory. Recall that Gnatia was once willing to break our alliance because we asked them to not join the fight and costs them glory and riches.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I admit I am a bit surprised by how violently our citizenship and military brotherhoods seem to opposed to mercenaries and I am honestly struggling find it entirely believable since it seems a massive overreaction and somewhat at odds with our tendency to use native allies and the like but okay seems like I have to accept that mercenaries are out.

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Here are the reasons why this would happen:

1) Unlike native Italian levies, mercenaries are likely to compete directly with our citizenry in the roles of hoplites and their aristocratic cavalry. Recall that in this society, war is a fundamental part of how citizens of a Hellenic polis express their arete and manhood. Hiring a bunch of foreigners to do it for you is at best embarrassing on some level. A city that's faced defeates may do it, and after a major war shakes up the Mediterranean it may become more common, but right now it's not.

2) There are probably countless examples of mercenary bands disrupting democracy. Mercenaries are if anything probably more likely to be loyal to an oligarchy or a tyranny than to a democracy, because while a tyrant or oligarchy may stop paying them, they're probably not going to do so on a whim when they're counting on the mercenaries for logistical support. Ancient Greek democracies tended to be... fickle.

3) Eretria, as pointed out, has a certain amount of martial pride. Despite warnings that our phalanx isn't really first-rate, we've never actually had that experience of going up against a real powerhouse like the Spartans and losing. Whereas the Eretrians have repeatedly routed the Italian native populations, and held their own against the Syracusans and the Tarentines. As long as that belief in the valor of their own arms persists, the Eretrians have little incentive to even start thinking about why they would want to hire mercenaries.

...

Moreover, it is at best DEEPLY ambiguous whether hiring mercenaries is even a good idea in the long run, in any era of history. Easy availability of people willing to kill for money, who are as good or better at it than anyone else in the city, has a lot of drawbacks. And there are a lot of dangers associated with having a large army sitting around and likely to explode if their pay is interrupted.

It's not at all clear to me that a regular practice of hiring mercenaries would be beneficial to Eretria, compared to other things we could do with the money that would in the long run strengthen the city.