What about using our free action to support Dmos Exoria plan for Messapi?(is Xenoparakletor from Antipatria clarified for it?)

While many want to tend to pirate problem it was pretty much stated that the problem will be put on the table if it escalate, if it doesn't we can simply chose Demos Drakonia next turn and deal with them while now we secure geeks in Italy and Messapi.

I would rather have had Exoria and Drakonia tied for probolous tbh. Drakonia might not go for outright military engagement but it's more standardized than merchants paying for services in more risky areas.

One at least tries to bind our vassals tighter to us, especially the Messapii, who just got their butt kicked and some cities ravaged yet still had sense enough to elect a king.

As for Drakonia, I'd rather people consider doing the military mission. I'd rather not deal with the Illyrians getting bold enough to attack us or our colony. Plus it makes us seem like an unreliable protector or lessens the

Antipatria's domestic policies don't deal with enough consolidation of our vassals or protect our adriatic waters for me.
Adhoc vote count started by Cetashwayo on Jun 3, 2019 at 2:17 PM, finished with 473 posts and 97 votes.
 
Hey, by the way, Zeno has already been born, right? he was born in 495BC after all.
Leukos the Accountant:

"I once met a man who claimed that an arrow could never reach his target, and that he had been taught this by the lover of wisdom, Zeno of Elea. I then said that if he was correct, a thrown olive could not strike him, though I did not demonstrate this directly. He admitted that his proof could not be correct, but challenged me to find his mistake, and to this day I have no answer."

"...Did I win the argument, or did he?"

How likely are wrestler mathematicians?
Leukos is trying to mathematician, with mixed success, and while he isn't a wrestler of note, he can wrestle about as well as the average hoplite. Can't speak for the incoming Pythagoreans.

I dunno. I think history would be poorer without a philosopher named Swole.

I wonder how Artahias convinced the other Messapii to elevate himself as their king. Funny how the cities went and did so after we spurned him in favor of division.
He probably took advantage of the obvious weakness the Messapii have suffered as a result of their division (military disaster and political subjugation) and presented himself as the most obvious candidate for a new leader.

I'm a bit worried that he'll turn out anti-Eretrian now... :(
 
As with any military expedition, players will have the options to choose among different options for strategos. I'm not inclined to allow players to just select Linos, because Irenaeos was the actual naval commander during the Battle of Taras, and so he will want to put himself and his ideas forward.

Vote is closed. Obander Eupraxis of Demos Antipatria is victorious as Xenoparakletor, Theron Archippos of Demos Exoria for proboulos.

The final combined vote for each Demos is 95 for Antipatria, 48 for Exoria, and 49 for Drakonia. This translates into a 49.5% chance on each roll for a minor political office for Antipatria, 25% for Exoria, and 25.5% for Drakonia.
 
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The fluff for the pirate killing mission explicitly calls upon sending Xanthos, a man noted for his brilliant military mind as strategos. This is rather important because Xanthos is of Deme Exoria and yet the Drakonids still clearly believe he is the best man for the job.

So I don't see any particular reason of pick Linthos over him when the faction of sailors, rowers and Admirals clearly prefers Xanthos.

@Cetashwayo you mother f-ing ninja
 
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The fluff for the pirate killing mission explicitly calls upon sending Xanthos a man noted for his brilliant military mind as strategos. This is rather important because Xanthos is of Deme Exoria and yet the Drakonids still clearly believe he is the best man for the job.

So I don't see any particular reason of pick Linthos over him when the faction of sailors, rowers and Admirals clearly prefers Xanthos.

This was when Linos was running for Proboulos and thus could not put himself forward. Now, if an expedition does take place, the election for strategos will be more competitive as Linos will re-enter into next year's role for strategoi and almost certainly win (strategoi can serve indefinitely and are elected individually every year through approval voting, because actual power is not vested in them until they have to lead an expedition).
 
Honestly this is actually a pretty decent comeback for the Demos Drakonia, when you put it in perspective. Given a lot of this new popularity comes from their new ideas, or at least that's a very convincing spin to put on things, I suspect Linos will be doing pretty well.

At the same time, they'll probably be kicking themselves they put forward the Kerkyan expedition. Which might have interesting results.
 
As with any military expedition, players will have the options to choose among different options for strategos. I'm not inclined to allow players to just select Linos, because Irenaeos was the actual naval commander during the Battle of Taras, and so he will want to put himself and his ideas forward.

Vote is closed. Obander Eupraxis of Demos Antipatria is victorious as Xenoparakletor, Theron Archippos of Demos Exoria for proboulos.

The final combined vote for each Demos is 95 for Antipatria, 48 for Exoria, and 49 for Drakonia. This translates into a 49.5% chance on each roll for a minor political office for Antipatria, 25% for Exoria, and 25.5% for Drakonia.

As a reminder for everyone, these are the finalized motions:

Commercial Policy: For far too long the city has ignored the economic benefits that the Barbaroi could bring to the city with their herds of cattle. Create the Office of Barbarian Commerce under the command of the Proboulos in order to manage the Barbaroi as an economic unit, negotiating deals with chiefs to drive their herds towards the city in the spring and summer. With the addition of the Messapii as vassals they can also be economically integrated into Eretria's trade [-3 talent per turn cost for office upkeep, +2 overland staple trade route, +13.5 talents in trade per turn, better economic relations with the Barbaroi].

Diplomatic Mission: Metapontion and the Italiote cities were able to force Eretria to concede its war goals and accept a peace brokered by them. Let us accept this peace, and let this disgrace never happen again, for in the future Eretria Eskhata will always ensure that the Italiotes are on our side and will have no reason to fear us. To this end, dispatch emissaries through Italia to create new proxenoi in all the major powers, from Rhegion to Metapontion, and guarantee specific laws and rights of these emissaries, including the right of residence and the right to advocate for Eretria Eskhata abroad. These proxenoi will be provided stipends by the city in order to keep them in their positions [4 extra public upkeep per turn, if mission successful, direct line of communication established between Eretria and the Italian cities of Lokri, Rhegion, Thurii, Krotone, and Metapontion].

Diplomatic Mission: The situation in Sicily is reaching a boiling point. With a Sicilian Congress to be held in Gela in only three years time Eretria Eskhata must move to ensure that its interests and those of its allies are well-represented. To that end, a large sum of gold and emissaries will be dispatched through southwest Italia and Sicily in order to build a coalition against the interests of Syrakousai and their allies in the region and prevent them from using the conference as a jumping-off point to force concessions from the Sikeliotes. It is also a way for us to ensure that our allies see our continued support of their own interests and ambitions in the region to prevent Eretria Eskhata from being too militarily isolated.

Great Work Addition (Temple of Artemis): Before the Eretrians came to Epulia, among the most popular of our Gods was Artemis Amarysia, who protected the people in times of strife and stayed a stable guarantor of the end of tyranny and the survival of the demos. Her love of music, her affinity with the Barbaroi, her protection of the demos against the hostile forces of those who would destroy or slaughter us, are all reasons to celebrate the huntress [Additional year added to Hill of the Divine Marriage construction, cost increased to 660 talents, 117 talents a turn for four turns including 349 OL].

Immigration Policy: In barbarian Italy the true strength of any city is numbers. New metics can become new tenants, new laborers, new colonists in future endeavors, new spears and new shields for the city. The city of Eretria needs labor, for its fields and for its docks, and it needs to rise above, to grow beyond its neighbors and its enemies. But it is only through immigration and the promotion of tenant labor that Eretria can achieve this potential [-15 talents, 7.5-10% population growth by next census, mostly lower class and menial laborers from around Hellas].

Religious Policy: Eretria's festival calendar has been confused due to the differing origins of many of its festivals, causing a situation in which festivals meant to start in mid-summer are now starting far later than they should. The confusion that this has garnered is growing to disrupt the city's festivals, and place further confusion on which festivals are endorsed by the people. The time has come for a comprehensive reform of the city's calendar in order to end all of the confusion, merge the competing calendrical systems together, and pull in folk festivals such as the Running of the Weasels that have been celebrated for decades but have received no official support [-10 talents, -2 talent upkeep per turn to reform festivals, better festival schedules will improve happiness in the city, +2% tariff efficiency].

Xenoparakletor Mission: Some may complain about the lack of support for the Messapii in the plan of the Demos Antipatria, but this is for far more important reasons, for we seek to reconcile Taras and Eretria once and for all through the mechanism of the city of Lykai, the last independent city in the Sallentine peninsula. To be sure, the Tarentine wound is still raw, but if we wish to prevent it from festering and take advantage of the peace party's renewed support, then we must move quickly and prevent a festering sore to open in our relations to transform us into permanent rivals. Let us use the city of Lykai, last independent city of the Sallentine and a symbol of Kerkyra's treachery, as an example of our reconciliation as we negotiate with Taras for its conquest. [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will be dispatched to Taras, if successful will be able to reconcile the two cities].
 
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Honestly this is actually a pretty decent comeback for the Demos Drakonia, when you put it in perspective. Given a lot of this new popularity comes from their new ideas, or at least that's a very convincing spin to put on things, I suspect Linos will be doing pretty well.

At the same time, they'll probably be kicking themselves they put forward the Kerkyan expedition. Which might have interesting results.
I mean, they still got 30 xenoparkeltor votes, so don't think they'll regret putting that on their slate. I'd say they lost because of syracuse more than they won because of Kerkrya.
 
I mean, they still got 30 xenoparkeltor votes, so don't think they'll regret putting that on their slate. I'd say they lost because of syracuse more than they won because of Kerkrya.
Personally I disagree, it is mostly due to the existing broad support for Adriatic pirate hunting, colonising and trade network expansion, that the Demos Drakonia still got that many votes. The coup attempt in Kerkyra certainly was what ended up turning me against their platform, this election.
 
Eh. Well, they're still good policies, even if it isn't what I'd want. We're pivoting further towards the less interesting (to me) parts of our region, namely barbarians inland (or anything inland to be honest), Sicily and the Italiotes, and away from Hellas and the Adriatic, but we've still got time to aim for that as well. Kerkyra is lost to us, though - let's hope that Athens wins there and then loses their big war so they're too weak to capitalize, like historically.

I don't like this immigration policy, my favourite is Talent. I also don't like trying to cozy up to Taras already, I feel it'd be better received after a few years once they've had time to cool down. The calendar thing is nice but I don't feel it's very important compared to other things we could be doing, and inland trade with barbarians is okay but I'd much prefer to focus very strongly on naval trade instead.

I'm not a pious man, so I don't care what we do with the temple that much, but I'd have preferred the grand temple of the Divine Marriage, and Prometheus would have been interesting especially if combined with Pythagoreans, so I guess my least favourite temple won.

On from the 'okay, I guess' side to the 'great' side, we got the proxenoi which is the thing I'd have pushed for as our extra pick if Drakonids had won - it's a great idea and will be very useful in the future. And being part of what's going on in Sicily is also good - I didn't feel it necessary but being involved means we have influence.
 
I rooted for Drakonia too for proboulos but Exoria was my second - I like this cultural, trade and diplomacy focused route. The only thing that I don't like is the immigration policy and it's a shame that our colonial adventures are postponed. Planning an attack on Kerkyra was a mistake for Drakonia and probably costed the xenoparakletor but the Antipatrid plan is sound, so I'm quite content. If the world doesn't fall apart (which is sadly likely), then we can stabilize ourselves in the next four years.
 
I think we can translate the vote into something like "The ekklesia doesn't want dominance of the Adriatic strongly enough to be willing to get entangled in the Peloponnesian War for the sake of securing more of it, so when the Drakonids say they're going to get us entangled in the war, they lose a lot of support."
 
I think that we will eventually have to accept, however, that we either need to commit to fighting Corinth or abandon our ambitions in the Adriatic. We may not be ready to take that step yet, but we need to prepare for it.

And for the war to come to us if we don't come to it.
 
Going for Kerkyra probably wouldn't have gotten us entangled in the war if the removal of the oligarchs would've succeeded, which was the risky part of the plan. Neither side in the Peloponnesian War wants to invade a powerful polis like Kerkyra (backed by a logistically difficult and, while smaller, still significant Eretria) just to get Kerkyra on their side when they're already neutral. It's different if Kerkyra and Eretria were on one side of the war, then the other side would want to attack them as a matter of course, but being neutral means they have to make an additional enemy to attack us, and the only thing they have to gain is whatever assistance we could provide them after they defeat us in a war, which is likely not much given that we've just been defeated, especially in comparison to the money and manpower spent subduing us.
 
I think that we will eventually have to accept, however, that we either need to commit to fighting Corinth or abandon our ambitions in the Adriatic. We may not be ready to take that step yet, but we need to prepare for it.

And for the war to come to us if we don't come to it.

While that is certainly a possibility I am not sure it is a certainty. Corinth will probably be busy with the war in Greece and if we actually establish ourselves as the prominent power in the Adriatic it may well decide that disloging us is to expensive/risky.

And I suspect it would be more interested in controlling the traderoutes between us and Greece than those in the Adriatic itself any way. After all why go through the trouble of setting up and maintaining outposts there if they can simply control the mouth of the Adriatic itself.
 
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If Corinth has to choose between fighting us or fighting Sparta in order to aggrandize themselves, I'm pretty sure I know who they're going after first.

Also if they weren't interested in operating further up in the Adriatic I don't think they'd have gone after Epidamnos.
 
If Corinth has to choose between fighting us or fighting Sparta in order to aggrandize themselves, I'm pretty sure I know who they're going after first.

Also if they weren't interested in operating further up in the Adriatic I don't think they'd have gone after Epidamnos.

Pretty sure Korinth is an ally of Sparta and I am not saying they have no interest just that they are not necessarily motivated to start a long and bloody conflict to get control of a territoy yet mostly unproven while busy and/or weakened due to participating in a far larger and far more important conflict.
 
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A conflict, might I add, where we're selling grain to the principal combatant on the other side from both Korinth and Sparta.

Which is why I think at best we can delay our involvement in the Peloponnesian War. Preventing it entirely is not a viable option when we can reasonably determine that two elements of the OTL war should still happen, barring a speedy end to hostilities: the Persians are going to pay for a Spartan fleet, and the Spartans are going to try to blockade Athens into starvation.
 
While that is certainly a possibility I am not sure it is a certainty. Corinth will probably be busy with the war in Greece and if we actually establish ourselves as the prominent power in the Adriatic it may well decide that disloging us is to expensive/risky.

And I suspect it would be more interested in controlling the traderoutes between us and Greece than those in the Adriatic itself any way. After all why go through the trouble of setting up and maintaining outposts there if they can simply control the mouth of the Adriatic itself.
Because Etria has already show the ability to move trade routes around it to Athens and others.

As it is for Kreyka- in terms of Athens view, a Kreyka aligned Corinth is an issue as Corinth is a hostile naval power, adding a 2nd naval power to that when Athens relies on control of the sea was a threat that had to be responded to.
An Etrian aligned Kreyka is a naval power that is aligned with a friendly neutral (we do sell them grain they need to feed the city and we stomped Taras navy hard so reducing chances of Taras going to the aid of Sparta) so not a threat more so with the rest of the Drakonia platform orienting us towards the Adriatic and our likely choice from the other platforms putting our second orientation towards Italy and Sicily or basically in the opposite of Athens current orientation.

The danger to us of an Athenian Kreyka is that it gives it a strong port to supply expeditions towards Italy and the Adriatic in additions to ones Kreyka may run themselves all of this without our influence in the mix.

Also given Corinth refusing to challenge Athens at sea, Kreyka being on both an island and to the north would have made it hard if not impossible for Sparta and her allies to reach in any threatening manner as that would require them to challenge Athens on the sea, challenge Kreyka on the sea and challenge Etria on the sea. Three naval powers when their own naval power (Corinth) took it hard on the chin from just one of those, and with the pirates having been dealt with, the long term peace with Taras plus the stomp our navy put on the Taras navy they could not count on any local distractions of our naval forces.
 
A conflict, might I add, where we're selling grain to the principal combatant on the other side from both Korinth and Sparta.

Which is why I think at best we can delay our involvement in the Peloponnesian War. Preventing it entirely is not a viable option when we can reasonably determine that two elements of the OTL war should still happen, barring a speedy end to hostilities: the Persians are going to pay for a Spartan fleet, and the Spartans are going to try to blockade Athens into starvation.

Eh, while I wouldn't disregard the possibility and expect some degree of diplomatic pressure I doubt a real attack by Sparta or Athens is very likely. After all if things proceed as in RL Sparta almost certainly doesn't have the naval capacity for any massive manoveurs like landing a big expeditionary force in southern Italy and if it manages to beat or at least not get beaten by Athens it should be far easier to target the merchant vessels as they make their way around southern Greece, aka Sparta home territory, than any military adventure against us.

Honestly I personally expect a large bribe or the like long before I expect any big military force making their way towards us.
 
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That's the short horizon goal at the moment really - to make Eretria a power secure and influential enough to be worth persuasion and seduction by the two sides, rather than just one to be dictated to or threatened.
 
If we choose to pursue the anti-piracy expedition next year, which I suspect there may be a lot of support for within the thread, then we aren't abandoning our Adriatic ambitions; we'll still be projecting and asserting our seapower, and we'll have established a shiny new trade colony.

It's just that we'll have done this without picking a fight we don't need to pick right at the moment, which on balance, I think is probably a reasonable position, especially when there was a lot of diplomacy we wanted to do with our fellow Italiote Greeks.
 
If we choose to pursue the anti-piracy expedition next year, which I suspect there may be a lot of support for within the thread, then we aren't abandoning our Adriatic ambitions; we'll still be projecting and asserting our seapower, and we'll have established a shiny new trade colony.

It's just that we'll have done this without picking a fight we don't need to pick right at the moment, which on balance, I think is probably a reasonable position, especially when there was a lot of diplomacy we wanted to do with our fellow Italiote Greeks.

do korkyra anyway
 
The anti pirate sweep would likely be the best fit, given that, though pricey, it uses resources we're not otherwise making use of for anything and hopefully preps for a pivot to the Adriatic once Sicily is more stable.
 
Intervening in Kreyka certainly what most put me off the Drakonia program. But if they'd had a less aggressive anti-pirate plan, I might have been interested. I saw the Kreyka intervention as a high risk, high reward gambit. I also saw the plan to take the island of Issa as a similarly high risk high reward gambit. Pursuing both goals together seemed a bit much to me.

And of course, I was roleplaying a more pious citizen when I voted.

If either of those policies were to be enacted by user motion, I think the expedition to take Issa would be the best policy to pursue, since it would attack the pirates while also perhaps securing land for a colony that gives us room to set up some of our poorer population as citizen farmers, which would be nice with all the poor Metics Exoria is attracting.

If we did manage to secure Kreyka as an allied democracy, it would give us an ally to help us in anti-piracy operations, which has its advantages. Personally, the choice would be so much easier if far-away Syrakousai had not been chosen as our main enemy! I'd much rather Korinthos were our declared enemy. As things stand, I don't want to entangle ourselves too much in the Adriatic or with attacking barbaroi because the balloon could go up in Sicily at any moment and letting our declared enemy win seems a bad idea. But so far as I can see, we gain little from helping contain Syrakousai. Feh!

Is it possible to introduce other things in our user motion? Like military reform? Or bringing Pythagoreans to Eretria? Or embiggening the Temple of Divine Marriage so it is something truly impressive for the area?

fasquardon
 
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