- Location
- Luton Airport
I mean, I'll admit I went for Syracuse for our primary enemy for the very gamey reason that I didn't think @Cetashwayo would let us neuter Taras as easily if we'd chosen them as our Nemesis.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Turns out that we aren't allowed to eliminate Taras anyway.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, if they super-hated us, then we probably couldn't diplomance them now, so it's true in a way.
Pretty sure that the idea is that we can attempt one of the projects of the losing "party" and even that is probably connected to some increased cost since anything else defeats the whole purpose of having to choose between options in the first place.
And while I admit that the Syrakouse nemesis seems so far have been pretty un-important I have little doubt that it will become more relevant in the future and from a historical perspective it is probably the option that changed the most - a strong league/state on Sicily could easily derail a lot of history. Plus for me personally it carries the possibility of a closer relationship with Carthage which besides being an interesting and powerful ally/adversary to have might be another way to get my god damn mercenaries included in our armed forces...
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Not the temples, it would be too expensive to put them multiple in at once and would further extend the construction of the Hill.
Not sure what the use is besides to cushion your own casualties. Besides being politically unreliable and expensive, mercenaries aren't necessarily better quality than your own troops, they're just available year-round, but the big mercenary glut doesn't happen until after the Peloponnesian War ends; before then most mercenaries employed are support troops, but the war creates a massive group of skilled veterans, sometimes in cities that have lost or have been struck with poverty. You'd get some skirmishers, but there's nothing particularly better about Thracian skirmishers over the better Iapygian ones.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
Thracian skirmishers can be expended without cutting into our tribute revenue after the war.
Cushioning our casualties a bit would still be pretty nice, honestly. Professional hoplites are also likely to be a little better than our citizen amateurs, although the truly "professional" outfits are not necessarily all mercenary bands. Still, five hundred professional mercenaries on one flank whilst the Ekdromoi are on another would be pretty handy if we ever face another push of pikes against a serious foe.
Although admittedly, given we've adopted the Mesapii and will probably eventually be doing the same with large segements of the Dauni, we can also cushion our casualties with an angry tidal wave of Iapygians. Their demographics are slightly less brittle than ours as far as military casualties go, I'd suspect, although admittedly the Mesapii in particular will need time to recover.
Although admittedly, given we've adopted the Mesapii and will probably eventually be doing the same with large segements of the Dauni, we can also cushion our casualties with an angry tidal wave of Iapygians. Their demographics are slightly less brittle than ours as far as military casualties go, I'd suspect, although admittedly the Mesapii in particular will need time to recover.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
I dunno how much more clearly @Cetashwayo can say "mercenaries will herald the death of democracy" and it get through. I suspect Syracuse as our End Boss will provide an example ala Dionysios I in due time.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
About the only way which I would want to hire mercenaries is if we expressly have plenty of land that we can settle them on and just straight-up turn them into a colony of some sort.
Actually, think about the sort of image that would give to the rest of Hellas if we specifically did that, offering to help exiled Hellenes set up colonies around the Adriatic -- that's a powerful synergy with the history of Eretria Eskhata and this. We stay out of the war in Hellas, and we offer immigration to Metics and colonial aid to destroyed cities?
Actually, think about the sort of image that would give to the rest of Hellas if we specifically did that, offering to help exiled Hellenes set up colonies around the Adriatic -- that's a powerful synergy with the history of Eretria Eskhata and this. We stay out of the war in Hellas, and we offer immigration to Metics and colonial aid to destroyed cities?
I think that's a tad melodramatic, @Cavalier. If @Cetashwayo wished to tell us that, he is actually quite capable of doing so, and would not have given thought to creating interesting mechanics for hiring mercenaries for us to try out.
Relying on mercenaries certainly can threaten political institutions, for the same reason professional armies can, particularly if they end up hanging around the city unpaid. But hiring a specific band of mercenaries for a specific purpose against a serious challenge is not automatically going to end Eretrian Democracy. Especially if they are paid on time, and are outnumbered by the rest of our forces. There's little motive or gain to them in randomly attempting a coup, under those circumstances, and quite a bit to lose.
Of course there are risks, but there are risks in everything we do.
Relying on mercenaries certainly can threaten political institutions, for the same reason professional armies can, particularly if they end up hanging around the city unpaid. But hiring a specific band of mercenaries for a specific purpose against a serious challenge is not automatically going to end Eretrian Democracy. Especially if they are paid on time, and are outnumbered by the rest of our forces. There's little motive or gain to them in randomly attempting a coup, under those circumstances, and quite a bit to lose.
Of course there are risks, but there are risks in everything we do.
Well, as you are tirelessly reminding us losing a soldier means a citizen so I do indeed think that having some additional meatshields on the battlefield is no bad idea. And especially when it comes to stuff like sieges or lengthy campaigns like the one we might see in Sicily or pacification efforts against stuff like the Brutii, Dauni or the Samnites having soldiers who don't want go home and harvest seems like an useful investment.
And then there is the hope of recruiting soldiers of certain specialities like for example Gallic or nomad cavalry/archers or the famous Cretan archers that could supplement our own forces nicely. Or even have an effect similar to the one of Hedorion the mercenary and inspire some changes at home.
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Mercenaries are loyal to nothing but coin and cannot and should not be trusted. They know this as well as we do; therefore, let us not discuss or even dignify the idea of bringing such brutish men who do not fight for glory or the safety of their homes, but for whom violence is their stock in trade, as a merchant might sell you wares. You can only trust that the mercenary will follow the master with the largest pile of gold and silver. No; better to rely on our own spears and shields and those of our allies. Losing a soldier means losing a citizen, yes, or a loyal metic sworn to defend his home, but is that not for the better? For it forces us to consider whether war is in the interests of our citizens and whether or not we wish to expose the beating heart and lifeblood of our city to the fortunes of war. Far easier to speak of war when you presume some brute, bought and paid for, is the one who will do the dying.
So say I - Ariston, son of Antikles.
So say I - Ariston, son of Antikles.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I mean.
Eretria isn't strong enough to destroy Taras.
In the recent Sallentine War, the Eretrians picked a pretty smart strategy, leveraged their advantages of naval superiority and skirmishing barbarian allies, fought at least a bit harder in the push-of-pike against the Tarentine phalanx than anyone expected, and besieged the walls of Taras until the men's morale was starting to grind down.
It got us the peace we got.
The "trouble" with fighting a roughly equal adversary is, you're probably not going to be strong enough to destroy them once and for all. That's not how it works in ancient warfare, especially in the absence of reliable means to breach city walls.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
My exact intentions in trying to shore up southwestern diplomacy and bury the hatchet with Taras are to provide us more leeway in the future to do the fun Adriatic stuff that I actually want. If we can find a durable peace with our immediate neighbors and build up solid enough Sicilian & Italiote coalitions to pin Syrakousai in place, then we'll have a more secure opportunity to enjoy the bounties of our backyard. It'll still not make up for our disastrous initial diplomatic choices, but we can't turn back the clock there.
Offering bands of specifically Greek mercenaries a paid contract of service and then plots of land after their contract is over is a really interesting idea, actually. So long as we have land to give them, of course. Thinking about it, it might pair up quite well with the Antipatrid policy agenda. Or the Drakonid one if we would be offering them citizenship in our colonies as you suggest, of course. Either way, it's very interesting idea for essentially extending our policy of profiting from the chaos caused by the war by taking in the displaced and desperate into the post-war environment.
Perhaps if the Italiote League finds itself in hostilities with the Brutii, or we want to establish more Illyrian colonies, we could encourage a policy like this.
One of the most respected men of our city and the man responsible for laying the foundations for our superior( or at least perceived as such) military was a mercenary. As were quite a few of the founders of one of our elite troops (the cavalry one) if I am not mistaken so I find it very strange that we of all people would suddenly decry them as immoral men with no standing or honour....
Actually, thinking on it, there's one very good reason that we would hire mercenaries, even if it would be usuriously expensive, and even if you assume they are no better when compared like-for-like with our own forces.
What's the one component of our forces that we always, always, always would want more of than we have available, no matter how much we have?
Cavalry.
The advantages that cavalry bring to raiding, to scouting, and to field battles are immense, especially because we actually understand how to use them. If we were fighting a war against a major opponent, and had the option to hire a band of six hundred professional cavalry for a year, is there any doubt that we would take them eagerly? They would be an immense force multiplier. Also, a single mercenary cavalry unit by itself does not really have much prospect of staging a successful coup, especially if they're not even Greek.
Now, saying that, I suspect if we did have the option to hire such a unit, it would cost as much as our entire reconstruction and renovation of the Hill of the Divine Marriage, or expanding the harbour. Mercenary cavalry are obscenely expensive.
But under the right circumstances, they'd be absolutely worth every last ounce of silver.
What's the one component of our forces that we always, always, always would want more of than we have available, no matter how much we have?
Cavalry.
The advantages that cavalry bring to raiding, to scouting, and to field battles are immense, especially because we actually understand how to use them. If we were fighting a war against a major opponent, and had the option to hire a band of six hundred professional cavalry for a year, is there any doubt that we would take them eagerly? They would be an immense force multiplier. Also, a single mercenary cavalry unit by itself does not really have much prospect of staging a successful coup, especially if they're not even Greek.
Now, saying that, I suspect if we did have the option to hire such a unit, it would cost as much as our entire reconstruction and renovation of the Hill of the Divine Marriage, or expanding the harbour. Mercenary cavalry are obscenely expensive.
But under the right circumstances, they'd be absolutely worth every last ounce of silver.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Well, all of that is true, and I do have specific mercenary mechanics set up, I just don't want people to think mercenaries are a big advantage for Eretria specifically. Eretria is one of the better placed poleis in Hellas to maintain a mostly militia army into the 4th century BCE, past the time when many other cities had turned to mercenaries as their prime or only type of unit. You see lots of complaints about mercenaries among Greeks in the 4th century BCE but a lot of people are using them.
Eretria, however, has a far more martial culture, and a larger culture of martial citizenship, to the point where mercenaries supplanting the citizenry in war could be grounds for a coup of the government by the hieros ekdromoi and kleos exoria and the extermination of all mercenaries. This is how fiercely Eretria guards what it sees as an inherent right of being an Eretrian citizen or Metic and how much the city despises the mercenary. Now, if those mercenaries were to be settled in Eretrian territory, or are mostly barbaroi who are supplementing the army in a few key areas as you say, that's fine, and they can be useful, but then again the city will rarely want for Peuketii to fulfill similar roles, who may be embarrassed by the city attempting to supplant them.
Herodion was a hero of Eretria before he departed, and the glory of him and his men was in no small part due to their own efforts to send news back home. But at home, he is an Eretrian citizen, and never once used mercenaries during his time as a leader. This is an obvious double standard, but one that Eretria employs happily; if they are an Eretrian citizen who is a mercenary, they are merely gaining glory for the city, and indeed the city has rarely seen its men depart the city as mercenaries simply because the city is a net immigration center and only recently started having issues with poverty (and hasn't been at war for a while besides).
The Kleos Exoria would violently protest the arrival of mercenary cavalry.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Yeah, I'm convinced more and more that Eretria must not employ mercenaries in the standard manner, of hiring fighting men with the promise of coin, and going down the road of explicitly promising land in exchange for military service takes us down the road that broke Rome. Instead, I present the following notion -- Eretria knows no mercenaries, only allies. If we wish to have more fighting strength, then offer those mercenaries places in our next colony, where they will become citizens of a new home, alongside the adventurous citizens of the Epulian cities. Immigration as Metics and the founding of new cities is how we should gain fighting strength from those dispossessed Hellenes. Give them the dignity of fighting for their home and for their friends, rather than fighting for coin.
Well, that's bemusing, but fair enough. Honestly I was unaware that Eretria violently hated mercenaries.
Our barbaroi allies do make up for it in a lot of areas, though. @Godwinson's idea of land or citizenship for service at the end of their contract for specifically Greek mercenaries also still has promise, I think.
It would be helpful if there were enough of them to fill a children's swimming pool. :lol
Our barbaroi allies do make up for it in a lot of areas, though. @Godwinson's idea of land or citizenship for service at the end of their contract for specifically Greek mercenaries also still has promise, I think.
It would be helpful if there were enough of them to fill a children's swimming pool. :lol
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I mean obviously this is part of the drawback of having elite professional units. It contributes extremely well to a martial culture, but then this is a martial culture that brooks few intrusions into its ranks by outside forces except in areas they are obviously deficient. The most likely way for Eretria to develop militarily in a more professional direction is for the expansion of these forces and the development of institutions to prevent this this enlarged professional force from turning against democracy, much later.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Honestly, I'm entirely in favor of that -- a small professional force alongside a martial democracy isn't nearly the threat that a large professional force in a civilian democracy becomes.
Well, we might offer them a fee for their contract, but the farm waiting at the end of it has to be a really good motivator to actually keep to that contract. Overnight our colonies gain a ton of hardened fighting men, as well, so in all honesty basically everyone wins apart from whoever's ancestral lands the colony has been carved from.
That makes a lot of sense, yeah.
Honestly the more I think about it, with the exception of cavalry, with which we are far better supplied than most poleis even if we can never really have "enough", our Iapygian allies basically tick most of the boxes that most cities would go to mercenaries for. Our levies provide a pretty deep well of manpower to draw on in proportion to our size, and if my intuition is correct about what tribal levies represent compared to our own levy, they can probably absorb casualties a little more easily than we can.
Military reform to expand our "elite" units is also interesting, and probably a route forward, although having enough institutional oversight to prevent them from becoming a threat against democracy is also a real concern. The idea of multiple smallish "sacred" units who all loathe one another presents itself, although this also has a lot of hilarious drawbacks.
- Location
- USA
I really need to create a character voice for this quest. As for mercs I am on full agreement there and as pointed out by @Admiral Skippy offers of land dovetails nicely with the Drakonia proposed colonial policies where they are less mercs and more on earning their right to citizenship. Of course we would need the colonies to pursue this path and it would give the new colonies a core of martial oriented citizens that would likely in turn give rise to effective hoplites and cavalry that we can call on like the league forces.