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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Secretariat said:
My thought is that we shouldn't compensate Taras, or her subjects.

I do think we should gift them, with an amount roughly comparable to the amount we would compensate them by, and more besides, as a sign of our strength and generosity.

It is a subtle, but meaningful difference - by accepting a gift, they place themselves in our debt; whereas compensation can imply fault.
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Hmmm

@Cetashwayo thoughts on the viability of this idea? We need to bear in mind what exactly we wish to accomplish here.
 
Secretariat said:
My thought is that we shouldn't compensate Taras, or her subjects.

I do think we should gift them, with an amount roughly comparable to the amount we would compensate them by, and more besides, as a sign of our strength and generosity.

It is a subtle, but meaningful difference - by accepting a gift, they place themselves in our debt; whereas compensation can imply fault.
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I don't know if most Eretrian citizens, league members, or allies will understand the subtlety behind such actions. It might not be palatable.
 
Professor Vesca said:
@Cetashwayo thoughts on the viability of this idea? We need to bear in mind what exactly we wish to accomplish here.
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People are not a fan of this. Returning the loot is more understandable, especially given the takers of the loot, the Ekdromoi, are less likely to cause a fuss that they have to return a noble lady's necklace than a normal hoplite would.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Talents gained from loot are generally after compensation is already given over to the soldiers. Presumably the indemnity given by Taras would be the same.
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Has Taras committed to accepting this peace deal? Will Metapointoin support us if Taras refuses to make peace?
 
[X] Accept the peace.

While some of the terms rankle me, the overall treaty is a big strategic victory for us. Sure, Taras gains Aoxenta and the lands around it but the town is little more than a fort at this point with all the civilians leaving it. We're better off without it and in return we gain undisputed hegemony over the Messapii who we'll be able to subjugate and vassalize easily given their divided state. We can develop and expand our control over our barbarian vassals as well as conducting expeditions against the Dauni and across the Adriatic over the next 20 years while Taras will be more or less confined to their current holdings.
 
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Admiral Skippy said:
LET US RAISE THE WEASEL BANNER PROUDLY, IN HONOURABLE VICTORY!
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The hoplite Skantarios groans. "We are not weasel men, friends, citizens, please."

Then he grows serious. "This peace deal is insulting, but given the circumstances, we have no choice but to accept it. At least we have prevented Tarantine expansion into the lands of the Messapi, and humbled them besides. Let us use these twenty years to become a peerless polis, the equal of Korinth or Athens or Sparta. Let Prudence be our watchword and shield against the Fates."

[X] Accept the peace.
 
So overall losses from the war:
Eritia:
42 Ekdromoi
92 Psilloi
2 Kelos Exoria
29 Cavalry
Isokrates Hypatos- Drakonian candidate
149 Hoplites
Total: 315


Allies:
340 Messapii
Allied 120 Skirmishers
Allied 39 Cavalry
Allied 21 hoplites
Total: 340 Messapii, 180 allied for 520

Our side total losses: 835, 495 not including Messapii. 170 hoplites killed

Taras:
18 Triremes
79 Rowers
91 men
500 men (more skirmish and cav, some hoplites)
234 Hoplites
Total: 825 w/o rowers, 904 with over 234 hoplites killed

I would argue that the Messapii taking some hits is good reduces their manpower so they wont be as rebellious as they know their continued freedom is dependent upon us and our league. Hopefully over time they can become as the Peuketii have become.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Taras would justify their grievance whether we take the peace or not. The Messapii have no hope of fighting us, and Brention and that other city would side with us if their king were foolish enough to try to deny us, with Taras having no hope of intervening lest they break the sacred peace and anger the Gods. Yes they have the land route now, yes the Messapii lose land, but it is land of no special importance to us, and their armies would march through if war were to break out regardless. Aoxenta fell, a walled fortress, quickly enough. If they could not hold Aoxenta, then they would no more hold the coastal road in the event of a conflict. I would already argue this war was ill timed, as we could have broken off cities from both the Messapii and Dauni with little trouble had we avoided conflict. Yet we allied with the whole of the Messapii anyway, went to war with Taras, and have humbled them.

Honor is for the living, so let us not pursue honor into our potential graves, take the peace sworn before the Gods, and depart as victors. Let the Italiotes think what they will, Taras certainly will with no invitation from us. We will become stronger for it, we are becoming stronger. As Taras will attempt to gird their loins for the conflict 20 years hence, so too will we be busy ourselves.

Let the Messapii complain, what will it avail them, with disloyal cities and a frightened people?
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New land and coastal connection further increases Taras' wealth and military capacity by allowing it to bestow land on its citizens and assume a direct connection with its military dependencies. We're letting them press ever further into the Sallentine peninsula even in defeat; while the land might not matter much to us, it is weakening the Messapii and strengthening our enemies, letting them build upon their gains for a stronger position when the next time comes. Consider also that we rely fairly heavily on lesser barbaroi; if we telegraph to them all that we really don't care what woes befall them so long and are willing to sell them even on the side of victory so long as Eretria proper comes out with a few coins clinking in her pockets, I suspect that we'll get a much worse response the next time we try to press them into a conflict and perhaps even stir seditions.

Cavalier said:
We admit we provoked them, which of course we did. Taras still admits fault for actually starting the war. The land they pick up is hardly all the considerable compared to gaining recognition of Eretrian overlordship of the Messapii. A generous peace with them that shows we did not intend to conquer or destroy them is the biggest boost we can give to their peace party. And to be honest given the Messapii performance who cares what they think? They performed badly enough it's clear that they are totally dependent on Eretria not to get mulched by Taras. They aren't giving up any actual cities in the deal anyway.

And if you're worried about Tarantine revanchism then creating a bond of treaties with Metapontion and other Italiote cities to enforce the Common Peace is a pretty effective safeguard. As it is what exactly would fighting on do? It's pretty fucking clear we aren't actually going to siege out Taras, they'll gain a bunch of allies, and every season the war drags on creates the chance that the Dauni will start raiding or Corinth and Sparta will come to their aid or Syracuse will start something. And the risk of suffering crippling casualties among citizens increases with every battle we fight. There's a reason Spartan policy was not to fight too many wars, and look at what happened when they threw that away to grasp at an ephemeral hegemony.
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The alliances that Eretria makes are her prerogative; what business is it of the Italiotes to say that we are right or wrong in the matter? We should admit no such thing. For the next conflict, Taras will have twenty years to build and invest, taking advantage of the land grant and greater connection with its dependencies as we have enjoyed with the Epulian League; we on the other hand will have overlordship of the resentful Messapii who would have faced Taras with us anyway, except they are less a city. The Italiote cities are weak and distracted besides, following our convincing defeat of Taras & Co. I doubt that they'll be as willing to face our spearpoints as their words indicate; they're looking to shore up relations with their neighbor, not to invite ruin.

The Dauni are pacified (and have bigger worries besides), Corinth and Sparta are preoccupied in struggle with Athens and Syracuse cannot threaten us while our ally remains between us. We must not relent until the Tarentines admit the folly of their ways, otherwise we merely push the Tarentine ambitions down the line to threaten our sons.
 
So, looking towards next year, campaign with the Dauni to bring them under our influence? We have some friendly cities there and getting the saltpan trade back up and running would be a big boost to our income.
 
Kipeci said:
New land and coastal connection further increases Taras' wealth and military capacity by allowing it to bestow land on its citizens and assume a direct connection with its military dependencies. We're letting them press ever further into the Sallentine peninsula even in defeat; while the land might not matter much to us, it is weakening the Messapii and strengthening our enemies, letting them build upon their gains for a stronger position when the next time comes. Consider also that we rely fairly heavily on lesser barbaroi; if we telegraph to them all that we really don't care what woes befall them so long and are willing to sell them even on the side of victory so long as Eretria proper comes out with a few coins clinking in her pockets, I suspect that we'll get a much worse response the next time we try to press them into a conflict and perhaps even stir seditions.
The alliances that Eretria makes are her prerogative; what business is it of the Italiotes to say that we are right or wrong in the matter? We should admit no such thing. For the next conflict, Taras will have twenty years to build and invest, taking advantage of the land grant and greater connection with its dependencies as we have enjoyed with the Epulian League; we on the other hand will have overlordship of the resentful Messapii who would have faced Taras with us anyway, except they are less a city. The Italiote cities are weak and distracted besides, following our convincing defeat of Taras & Co. I doubt that they'll be as willing to face our spearpoints as their words indicate; they're looking to shore up relations with their neighbor, not to invite ruin.

The Dauni are pacified (and have bigger worries besides), Corinth and Sparta are preoccupied in struggle with Athens and Syracuse cannot threaten us while our ally remains between us. We must not relent until the Tarentines admit the folly of their ways, otherwise we merely push the Tarentine ambitions down the line to threaten our sons.
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Skantarios says:

It is strange for me to have to say this, for I am no friend of the barbaroi, but the barbaroi are not all one mob. The Peuketti and their King are our sworn feudatories, and as such we are honor-bound to defend them. If we compromised their situation in victory...it would be quite dishonorable indeed. But the Messapii are not the Peuketti. They have no such relationship with us. They thrust themselves into our camp only because they are hapless in war; and, as such, should have no great expectations.

The position of the Italiotes is thus: they are worried about the rise of a hegemon in Italia, and they have armies with which to contest such a hegemon. It is near enough to their hearts that I do not see their threats as idle.
 
Void Stalker said:
So, looking towards next year, campaign with the Dauni to bring them under our influence? We have some friendly cities there and getting the saltpan trade back up and running would be a big boost to our income.
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I would like to deal with the pirates first before turning our attention to the Dauni, especially since the Dauni aren't a threat right now.
 
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@Kipeci the Messapii are broken. They have not the strength to resist us. Half of their cities would follow us anyways. The other half would be stuck between a vengeful Eretria and Taras if they try to rebel and they would thusly be butchered. They have no choice at this point. It's either follow our lead or to fall on Hellenes spears.

As for Taras. Regardless of whether you are correct or not that is irrelevant. We cannot hold the siege at this point. Our forces are on the verge of revolting and just packing up to leave for their farms. Metapontion looms with several thousand more hoplites to join Taras in its breakout attempt. To stay is to invite the attention of Eris followed by the potential destruction of our whole army through the whims of Ares for no gain.
 
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Void Stalker said:
So, looking towards next year, campaign with the Dauni to bring them under our influence? We have some friendly cities there and getting the saltpan trade back up and running would be a big boost to our income.
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Oshha said:
I would like to deal with the pirates before turning our attention to the Dauni, especially since the Dauni aren't a threat right now.
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Our current needs stand thusly:

(1) The temples must be finished
(2) Piracy must be eradicated
(3) The Messapii must be properly subjugated
(4) The Dauni must be defeated and subjugated

If I may add anything, I would say that we ought:

(i) Build more triremes to further our hegemony over the seas.
(ii) Invest in siegecraft
(iii) Marines?

So says Skantarios the Hoplite.
 
Well, next year is an election year so you'll have your favorite choice of what shinies to pick for the next four years :p
 
Cetashwayo said:
Isokrates Hypatos, Drakonian candidate for election, dead
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In case anyone is clueless as to who this is
Cetashwayo said:
[] Proboulos: Isokrates Hypatos (Demos Drakonia)
Glory 2, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 6, Courage 2, Magnificence 4, Wisdom 3

Prominent young merchant in the Eretrian carrying trade. A man of much friendliness and moderate magnificence, he provides fair portions of his wealth to the city. He is not known for his courage or glory as either a captain or a businessman, but may yet grow into a man of much renown and esteem.
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He was the proboulos candidate to be specific.

And more is the pity, he admirably attempted to increase his glory, but it seemed as Tyche was not with him. He will be missed
Admiral Skippy said:
LET US RAISE THE WEASEL BANNER PROUDLY, IN HONOURABLE VICTORY!
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Do you want the Chase to be tradition? Because we will chase you out the gate as we did your forefather! >:u
 
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