Remove ads

Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Reader mode
[X] Accept the peace.

"Let us rejoice and give thanks to the gods, my fellow Eretrians, for they have smiled upon us in this war. Apollo and Athene have graced our strategoi and his leadership. Poseidon saw our triremes through to triumph. Nike withheld her favor from the barbaroi, this is true, yet she bestowed it on us true Hellenes. Even Ares, caprecious as he may be, sided with us against the hubris of Taras. Blessed Zeus commanded that we show greater faith and respect for the gods, we did so, and we have been rewarded.

"This peace may not be all too pleasing, this is true, but does it not satisfy that which we desired when this war began? Taras has been humbled. The Messapii, weakened and shamed by their struggles, are now under our dominion as agreed to by all Italiote Hellenes. With another tribe of Iapyges brought to heel and a twenty year peace with Taras, our goal for a peaceful southern border has at long last been achieved.

"No, we have not won dominion over the entire Sallentine peninsula. We did not break Taras either, nor did we wrest away control of its subordinate colonies. Yet were we likely to accomplish either? No. This was not what we sought to do. Our strategy in war was not an attempt at total victory, as we desired for many reasons. Naturally we did not get a total victory, and as we expected the other Italiote powers wish to prevent one. Let us take this peace, and be glad for the victories we earned, and turn our attention inward and northward, as was our plan all along.

So speaks Aristokles, son of Thaddeus, rider in the Kleos Exoria."
 
Cetashwayo said:
Well, next year is an election year so you'll have your favorite choice of what shinies to pick for the next four years :p
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Making us chose between the Dauni and the Pirates! Ouch that is a short cycle.

How will the new elections interact with great projects if one is still ongoing?

Also are the current heads going to still attempt some of their platform during the year as the ones we elect would take over starting the following year correct?
 
Secretariat said:
@Cetashwayo, as we weigh our options -- how much would it cost to persuade 50% of the army to stay another year? 75%?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Honestly given how much of the harvest we would lose if we had a serious percentage of our men in the field, it would have to be pretty sizable because it has to be enough for them to purchase grain the polis will have to get from somewhere else to not starve, or at least cut into any reserves we have set aside for famine.
 
Secretariat said:
@Cetashwayo, as we weigh our options -- how much would it cost to persuade 50% of the army to stay another year? 75%?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

To fund the entire army of this size for a year is 197.2 talents. 114.9 for 75% of the army leaving aside the permanent units. However they're going to want triple pay, so it would cost 344.7 just for 75% of the army. This is leaving aside any additional forces you'd want to deploy.

Void Stalker said:
Making us chose between the Dauni and the Pirates! Ouch that is a short cycle.

How will the new elections interact with great projects if one is still ongoing?

Also are the current heads going to still attempt some of their platform during the year as the ones we elect would take over starting the following year correct?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Re great projects: If the peace wins each faction will have its own idea of how to spend the money from Taras to add another temple to the Hill of the Divine Marriage and build it for another extra year in order to make up for the insult to the Gods that pausing the construction was.

Re: current platforms, if you look, both Mnemnon and Kyros have actually completed everything they said they would, and even the Exoria land reform was passed. Imagine that, politicians who follow up on their promises! :p

Sivantic said:
He was the proboulos candidate to be specific.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Thanks for pointing this out, I have now specified he was Proboulos candidate.

Sivantic said:
How far are we in the improved Hill of Marriage? 3/5?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

2/5, it'll be 3/5 next turn.
 
Sarpedon said:
Honestly given how much of the harvest we would lose if we had a serious percentage of our men in the field, it would have to be pretty sizable because it has to be enough for them to purchase grain the polis will have to get from somewhere else to not starve, or at least cut into any reserves we have set aside for famine.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And miss the elections -- buying grain hits them in the pocketbook, not participating in the decisions of the polis hits them in the spirit.

EDIT: and also I don't think we can get 350 talents of either short or long-term value out of Taras
 
ConfusedCanuck said:
[X] Accept the peace.
we have done well enough against taras lets cut our loses sooner then later.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Very much this, in terms of Greek dead, between us and the league we killed Taras at almost a 2:1 ratio, it only evens up with the Messapii dead. And Taras lost more hoplites then we did which is going to hurt further. Plus we utterly disgraced the war faction since they lost decisively at sea and lost 15 ships, none of which are cheap. For comparison are cheaper version are 3 talents per ship, so if we assume say 4 talents for a normal one we cost them 60 talents in rebuild plus the indemnity they have to pay out to us and any repairs for buildings damaged in the raid. All that while losing more citizens then us.

Edit-
Did we ever get an exact number of the metics that we attracted?
 
Last edited:
Secretariat said:
And miss the elections -- buying grain hits them in the pocketbook, not participating in the decisions of the polis hits them in the spirit.

EDIT: and also I don't think we can get 350 talents of either short or long-term value out of Taras
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well with most of the ekklesia in the field either they would hold elections in the field or delay them.
 
I might go for an IC speech latter but the crux of it is that we need to avoid falling victim to mission creep.

We joined the war to set the stage for our domination over the Messapii and to prevent Taras to use them as a launchpad against Eretria. We have secured both goals, lets call it a day and go home.

[X] Accept the peace.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

End the war on our terms and go do more important things. I hear there is a really nice plague going on in the east.
 
Personally I think it'd be a good idea to chill for a bit, keeping abreast of any threat from the Dauni or pirates, but if no emergency presents work on making Eretria more livable. It's not just a matter of prestige, though Eretria's cultural influence is paltry for its size and military/political/economic importance. It's also a matter of cleanliness being vital to keep any plague outbreak from being too terrible, having an impressive cultural corpus to speed up Hellenization of the Peuketti and Messapii, and being able to stay on cultural speaking terms as it were with other Greeks.
 
Cavalier said:
Personally I think it'd be a good idea to chill for a bit, keeping abreast of any threat from the Dauni or pirates, but if no emergency presents work on making Eretria more livable. It's not just a matter of prestige, though Eretria's cultural influence is paltry for its size and military/political/economic importance. It's also a matter of cleanliness being vital to keep any plague outbreak from being too terrible, having an impressive cultural corpus to speed up Hellenization of the Peuketti and Messapii, and being able to stay on cultural speaking terms as it were with other Greeks.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So an Exorian domestic policy? They focussed the most on infrastructure, I recall.

The Antipatrids focus on our alliances and gaining more Metic immigrants, so if you want peace and internal growth you'd likely look to a Exorian Proboulos and Antipatrid Xenoparakletor all things considered.
 
Last edited:
McLuvin said:
So an Exorian domestic policy? They focussed the most on infrastructure, I recall.

The Antipatrids focus on our alliances and gaining more Metic immigrants, so if you want peace and internal growth you'd likely look to a Exorian Proboulos and Antipatrid Xenoparakletor all things considered.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Antipatrids wanted to launch a campaign against the Brutii as part of their foreign policy. Though they also wanted missions to Metapontion for an alliance and building up support against Syrakousai. None of the foreign policy was without conflict involved, though I would not portray a pirate sweep as a major campaign, last time it was 5 triremes for one year.
 
Kipeci said:
New land and coastal connection further increases Taras' wealth and military capacity by allowing it to bestow land on its citizens and assume a direct connection with its military dependencies. We're letting them press ever further into the Sallentine peninsula even in defeat; while the land might not matter much to us, it is weakening the Messapii and strengthening our enemies, letting them build upon their gains for a stronger position when the next time comes. Consider also that we rely fairly heavily on lesser barbaroi; if we telegraph to them all that we really don't care what woes befall them so long and are willing to sell them even on the side of victory so long as Eretria proper comes out with a few coins clinking in her pockets, I suspect that we'll get a much worse response the next time we try to press them into a conflict and perhaps even stir seditions.


The alliances that Eretria makes are her prerogative; what business is it of the Italiotes to say that we are right or wrong in the matter? We should admit no such thing. For the next conflict, Taras will have twenty years to build and invest, taking advantage of the land grant and greater connection with its dependencies as we have enjoyed with the Epulian League; we on the other hand will have overlordship of the resentful Messapii who would have faced Taras with us anyway, except they are less a city. The Italiote cities are weak and distracted besides, following our convincing defeat of Taras & Co. I doubt that they'll be as willing to face our spearpoints as their words indicate; they're looking to shore up relations with their neighbor, not to invite ruin.

The Dauni are pacified (and have bigger worries besides), Corinth and Sparta are preoccupied in struggle with Athens and Syracuse cannot threaten us while our ally remains between us. We must not relent until the Tarentines admit the folly of their ways, otherwise we merely push the Tarentine ambitions down the line to threaten our sons.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Messapii are not the Peuketii, the Peuketii have been our ever favored servant for many decades, have faithfully provided tribute to our coffers and soldiers to our wars. They have recognized our sovereignty again and again, and we have ever been their faithful master. If the Metapontines demanded we give them Peuketii territory, they might as well demand we give Taras the divine hill, it would equally unacceptable to us. But no, the Messapii came to us, begging we shield them from the wrath of Taras. We accepted their offer, and perhaps if they had dealt blows to Taras, rather then serve as practice for their formations and spear thrusts, we might have been able to relieve them of the war intact. Yet they did not, and thus we cannot. In this moment, we can no more protect them from Taras, then we could protect Taras from the machinations of Kerkyra in the moment of our dishonor. They knew Taras was coming. We knew Taras was coming. That they extended the hand, and we took it, is that not enough for them?

They came out of this alive. What price is an uninhabited fortress, and uninhabited shoreline before the lives of their people? Will they demand next that we march on Mount Olympus and bring them the throne of Zeus, chief of all the Gods? No!

They are alive. That is enough. If their hubris is so far that they must by disciplined, for giving up a whole lot of nothing? Pah! We are generous, but stern masters. If we must discipline the servant for their ill requests, then so be it! We have purchased their lives with a bit of land and a city long vacated. I should think it would be a cheap price for them! Now that they have come into our household, we will defend them with all the diligence and duty of a patriarch defending his estate from raiders and bandits. If they are ever faithful, we shall defend them all the harder.
 
"The Metapontines have carved 'to the Master of the Messapii' onto the apple and thrown it on the ground between allies, knowing that it will bring discord. All that is required is for the Tarentines to offer ceaseless insult to the Messapii, to drive them to itch for war and chafe under the yoke that the Italiotes placed on them and tied to our hands, with the result being either a war between Eretria and the Messapii, for the sake of Taras, or that the Messapii will make war on Taras, and thus dishonor Eretria before all Hellenes. They claim this is a peace for twenty years, yet give Taras the means to break it at their leisure, with Eretria bearing the dishonor of its sundering. So speaks Theophilus, son of Theophilus, who ran the Bare Road, and grandson of Theophilus, who stood against the Medes under Artaphernes."
 
McLuvin said:
So an Exorian domestic policy? They focussed the most on infrastructure, I recall.

The Antipatrids focus on our alliances and gaining more Metic immigrants, so if you want peace and internal growth you'd likely look to a Exorian Proboulos and Antipatrid Xenoparakletor all things considered.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Eh, probably not. Antipatrid is the "Classical Hellene" and general Pro-Greek party. Exoria are more militaristic and the most barbaroi-oriented. If you want to raise the city's cultural profile you're looking at the Antipatrids. Drakonids got shellacked last election (especially for proboulos), so maybe they'll surprise us with their new platform, but as our commercial party obviously they'll be bringing some internal growth. Yes, Exoria wanted to build a sewer... but I suspect it was for the sake of siege defense more than anything else, as that fits their priorities and those are the priorities I expect out of their next platform.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

Refuse the peace? I should think I have entered the ekklesia Eretrias and not an evening symposion. I did not come here to listen to poetry and to comedies, surely I must have made a mistake? My countrymen, my fellow citizens, my dearest Eretrians for whom I would die for, let me remind you what ill fortunes came upon Akhilleus, the bane of the host, when he dragged Hektor 'round the walls. Let us not tempt the fates and invite the cloud-gathering Zeus to strike us down for our impiety and tempestuous decisions. The gods are with whomever wages a war justly. We fought to save the Mesapii, not to crush the Tarentines.

More importantly, we fought to save the Mesapii and that is accomplished, the Sikeliotes hand to us a sacred peace as beneficial to us as the gentle rains. Every day we commit further to this war is a day not spent in the fields, every day we commit further to this war is a day not spent with our families, every day we commit further to this war is a day not spent honouring the gods with great gusto. Every day we commit further to this war is a day in the mud, a day in the cold, a day in the lonely nights, a day in the uncertainty of an unsure and incomplete siege, a day where the men of Eretria, young and old, were told to not come back; a day where well-behaved Eretrian women must dream of their husbands and sons' safe return.

The terms to end the war have been given to us, we have demonstrated that we are more than capable of beginning wars with furor and mercilessness, that we will not have our honour as Hellenes and Eretrians insulted. Let us now show that we are capable of ending wars with the stately wisdom of experienced men who know the grasp and scope of our actions and who know how to honour the gods.

Thus speaks Glaukommes, son of Perixeontes.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

I do not think that we can hold the siege any longer, our brothers yearn to return to their families, their farms, the lifes they left behind.
We have humbled the Tarentines and their allies, our men have fought valiantly, our brothers from the Epulian League have fought valiantly and with honour.
This bond forged through blood shed on the same battlefield has become stronger than ever before. This is the seed of something truly great we have in our hands here.

Just imagine the fruits a peace of twenty years between can bring us, twenty years we not need to watch over our shoulder wondering if the Tarentines will now take the chance to repay our betrayal all those years ago.

So speaks Isigas son of Euplastos.

 
Citizens, if we had wanted a greater victory, then we would have planned for a greater victory. But this is the peace we planned for, is it not? Glorious victory, but not vainglorious as to turn all of Italia our foe. Only the lost reroute mid-voyage.

We must keep an eye on that Pylonos fellow, though. As great an ally that he has proved himself to be, he would make a fearsome enemy.

We have established our dominion over the Messapii, defended the Messapii from being devoured by Taras, and honored our allies. We have proved we are the superior in this war between brothers. The Tarantines who were foolish enough to start this war, and it is clear that it is a war they started, will be shamed in their defeat, with their only victories being against divided and undisciplined barbaroi.

And of the Messapii? This war not only proved our allegiance to them, but also their dependency on us. For without Eretria, Taras would have crushed each of their towns, one by one, as they did Aoxenta. No, I expect any trouble from them being under us being minimal. We Eretrians have a reputation of being generous to any who serve us well.

But I feel that I am merely preaching to the chorus. If any man among us is against this peace, let his voice be heard so that we may address his concerns. If not, then let there be peace!

So says Heliodoros son of Giorgios.

[X] Accept the peace.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Cetashwayo on May 27, 2019 at 5:35 PM, finished with 86 posts and 35 votes.
Click to expand...
 
[X] Accept the peace.

"I must admit, fellow Eritreians, that I understand when some say Taras gets off too lightly. They have started this war — by their own admission, no less! — and they have been soundly beaten. Why should they recieve anything at all since the gods have favoured us so?

"My response to that, is to question how will we get more? I will yield my rock and stand beside my kleftes for any man that can assemble a plan that will earn us more in the long-term than our current peace. Taras is safe behind their stout walls; impregnable. There is not what we can do. Taras maintains sufficient numbers that throwing off our siege is possible. There has just been no need for them to do such so far. They can sit comfortably, behind their walls and there is nothing we can do about it.

"To continue to the siege would be ruinously expensive. Without reaping the harvest, hoplites will not be able to feed their wives, children, slaves, and serfs. The loss of income that represents would have to be made up by the city and I fear that the three years it would take to starve Taras out would utterly bankrupt the polis, including the Sacred Treasury.

"All the Tarantines would need to do to greatly weaken us is sit there and cower behind their walls. If they were to strike at us? Tyche may longer be in our favour. Their hoplites soundly bested ours (OOC: our hoplites rolled at -3 on 2d10 during the Battle of Taras.) and were only prevented from reaping Ares' due by Phobos. They feared the smoke coming from their harbour and abandoned the field. This is not fortune we can count on a second time.

"If the other Italiote Greeks were to march to the aid of Taras, we would be overwhelmed. We lack the numbers to opposed them.

"Instead, we should use this peace. With the ending of the current war, our hegemonia over the Messapii is tightly secured. Twenty years to weld them to our cause will make them akin to the loyal Peuketti! They need us. Against Taras, they cannot stand as this war proved. The fact that they lost one completely isolated and surrounded fortress-town and a strip of uninhabitated coastline is a small price to pay. How many decades has it been for them, being savaged by Taras? Now that our aegis rests over them, they will finally know peace and can enjoy prosperity.

"These twenty years are also to be of far more benefit to us than to Taras. We have an enormous coalition of Hellens and barbaroi; with time, it is likely to grow ever larger. I can see the hunger in many of your eyes, anticipating the suborning of the Danui. Once they have been brought to heel, their saltworks on Lake Salpai will bring great wealth to our city. Does not every man know the value of salt? Only silver would be more precious.

"Taras, knowing their hubris will find themselves caught in the great games of Sparta and Athenai. They're likely to find themselves ground down ever further. Ourselves? Without Taras to fight for Sparta, we have little to attract us to the war in the Peloponnese. Sparta has no navy with which to strike at us and Korinth has been smashed by Athenai upon the waters.

"With the Messapii and the Danui under our banner, we can turn our attention back to the Tarantines. We lacked the ability to penetrate their walls now, but in twenty years, perhaps things can change. We have uncovered a weakness in our way of war and with peace we have time to fix it.

"This peace accord will not give us much directly, but it will allow us time to accumulate more power and correct the deficiencies so noted before war was declared."

So says Leander.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top