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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Horologer said:
The Tarentines lost. Eretria forced them back inside the city walls and besieged them. This peace is a tacit admission of defeat. They're paying us money, acknowledging that the Messapii are ours, and agreeing not to take revenge for the next two decades. The smoldering ruins of Aoxenta and a small strip of land are a pretty pathetic consolation prize next to that.
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What I'm seeing and worried about is that this war will have thoroughly convinced Taras of our belligerence and that how the war went down allows them to tell themselves that if things had gone a bit differently they could've won. If they'd had some allies, actually prepared for the war, hadn't let the dastardly Eretrians pull off their cowardly tricks, etc, etc, etc, they surely would've been able to seize victory.

Basically, we've cemented their hatred of us, proved to the rest of the Italia we're the more threatening polis, and failed to cripple Taras in a way that'd impact them by the time the next war runs around. It's looking like we've achieved some immediate boons - stole the Messapii, earned ourselves prestige, avoided bad casualties, and secured the flank so we can focus on other threats, but in the long run have set ourselves up an implacable enemy that's going to be doing nothing but building up for the inevitable next war. We all knew that was going to be the case, Taras was always an unacceptable competition on our doorstep and had to go, but I just wish we'd managed to hurt them in a way which would hamper them in the long run and sicken their people of war instead of further stoking the desire for revenge. As I mentioned, my hope was on taking the peninsula which I believed was an achievable goal, but as it turned out the opposite happened. We killed a lot of them, but just enough to create plenty of wailing widows and hatful orphans, but not enough to cripple their manpower and economy, which in many ways perfectly describes our entire 'victory.'
 
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Secretariat said:
Is Taras a major commercial power, such that by sinking their ships we can rapidly move in to acquire their markets?
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You sank their triremes, not their merchant marine. Taras is an important trading city and has grown as a nexus of trade between the west and the east and will likely remain that way. Eretria competes in a different market, mostly with Korinthos.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
What I'm seeing and worried about is that this war will have thoroughly convinced Taras of our belligerence and that how the war went down allows them to tell themselves that if things had gone a bit differently they could've won. If they'd had some allies, actually prepared for the war, hadn't let the dastardly Eretrians pull off their cowardly tricks, etc, etc, etc, they surely would've been able to seize victory.

Basically, we've cemented their hatred of us, proved to the rest of the Italia we're the more threatening polis, and failed to cripple Taras in a way that'd impact them by the time the next war runs around. It's looking like we've achieved some immediate boons - stole the Messapii, earned ourselves prestige, avoided bad casualties, and secured the flank so we can focus on other threats, but in the long run have set ourselves up an implacable enemy that's going to be doing nothing but building up for the inevitable next war. We all knew that was going to be the case, Taras was always an unacceptable competition on our doorstep and had to go, but I just wish we'd managed to hurt them in a way which would hamper them in the long run and sicken their people of war instead of further stoking the desire for revenge. As I mentioned, my hope was on taking the peninsula which I believed was an achievable goal, but as it turned out the opposite happened. We killed a lot of them, but just enough to create plenty of wailing widows and hatful orphans, but not enough to cripple their manpower and economy, which in many ways perfectly describes our entire 'victory.'
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It's disappointing that we didn't inflict a more permanent defeat, and it's possible the Tarentines will resent us all the more after this war. But how the Tarentines react is ultimately out of our hands, and this is a very good peace deal. A siege is unlikely to get us a better one.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
What I'm seeing and worried about is that this war will have thoroughly convinced Taras of our belligerence and that how the war went down allows them to tell themselves that if things had gone a bit differently they could've won. If they'd had some allies, actually prepared for the war, hadn't let the dastardly Eretrians pull off their cowardly tricks, etc, etc, etc, they surely would've been able to seize victory.

Basically, we've cemented their hatred of us, proved to the rest of the Italia we're the more threatening polis, and failed to cripple Taras in a way that'd impact them by the time the next war runs around. It's looking like we've achieved some immediate boons - stole the Messapii, earned ourselves prestige, avoided bad casualties, and secured the flank so we can focus on other threats, but in the long run have set ourselves up an implacable enemy that's going to be doing nothing but building up for the inevitable next war. We all knew that was going to be the case, Taras was always an unacceptable competition on our doorstep and had to go, but I just wish we'd managed to hurt them in a way which would hamper them in the long run and sicken their people of war instead of further stoking the desire for revenge. As I mentioned, my hope was on taking the peninsula which I believed was an achievable goal, but as it turned out the opposite happened. We killed a lot of them, but just enough to create plenty of wailing widows and hatful orphans, but not enough to cripple their manpower and economy, which in many ways perfectly describes our entire 'victory.'
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Bluntly this was always the best case scenario we could have achieved with this war. We simply did not have the capability to take a city as fortified as Taras. So long as that remained true they could always sit back behind their walls, lick their wounds and come back for another go.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Bluntly this was always the best case scenario we could have achieved with this war. We simply did not have the capability to take a city as fortified as Taras. So long as that remained true they could always sit back behind their walls, lick their wounds and come back for another go.
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I get that, and never thought we'd actually take Taras. What I was hoping for was to inflict significant casualties and weaken their position on the peninsula, if not outright snag their two dependencies for our league.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
I get that, and never thought we'd actually take Taras. What I was hoping for was to inflict significant casualties and weaken their position on the peninsula, if not outright snag their two dependencies for our league.
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Which wasn't going to happen because they are a peer power. And because Metapontion explicitly stated that they would intervene militarily against us if we weaken Taras too much. Which is what the situation would be like under your stated Hopes.

Barring literal miracles with Memmon achieving those goals would have provoked Metapontion and the other italia polis to intervene not with a peace deal but with their shield walls. Throughly giving us a beating and forcing us to pay reparations to Taras and thus preserving the balance in the power in the region with both Eretria and Taras weakened and perhaps crippled by war while they walk away with loot.

When I said this was the best for us I meant it. We struck the balance where we won enough to come ahead, but did not win so much so as to provoke a Metapontine Coalition against us.
 
Cetashwayo said:
You sank their triremes, not their merchant marine. Taras is an important trading city and has grown as a nexus of trade between the west and the east and will likely remain that way. Eretria competes in a different market, mostly with Korinthos.
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We inflicted some damage on their docks, and to their merchant district.

If we were to attempt to direct some of Taras' trade to Brention, with the aim of building that city up into a competitor for the east-west trade, would that be a possibility?
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
I get that, and never thought we'd actually take Taras. What I was hoping for was to inflict significant casualties and weaken their position on the peninsula, if not outright snag their two dependencies for our league.
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Assuming Taras has the same population as Etria in terms of freemen, we killed 4.1% of their freemen and we killed more hoplites then we and the league lost. All of which will slow them down somewhat. Could it have been bigger? Oh yeah, if we had not fumbled the cav roll we would have inflicted more casualties. But no matter how it stands we came out on top after this war. We just need to win the peace, get the Messapii to fall in line and trained up. Between them, our league, ourselves and Peuketii we have a bigger pop base then Taras does, with proper growth we can outpace them and manpower wins wars.
 
Secretariat said:
We inflicted some damage on their docks, and to their merchant district.

If we were to attempt to direct some of Taras' trade to Brention, with the aim of building that city up into a competitor for the east-west trade, would that be a possibility?
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You did damage to their military docks and set some buildings on fire. That's not really enough to have a noticeable effect, it was a distraction.

Brention is a small barbarian town which is really no competition to a big city like Taras. Roman Brundisium later overshadowed Taras but that was after the Romans sacked Taras, slaughtered many of its citizens, and sold most of its surviving population into slavery in the second Punic war. Brention is useful as a natural harbor that Eretria can control, but also because it's one of the best natural harbours in the southern Adriatic and it is in Eretria's best commercial interest that it does not emerge as a competitor of any kind. In the historical timeline Bari (Eretria's real life location) was a provincial town of only regional consequence and didn't emerge as the foremost city in the region until the reign of Joachim Murat, Napoleon's brother-in-law.

It is not actually that easy to just supplant a major commercial center. Even sacks do not always do the trick.
 
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This wasn't a victory, this is status quo ante bellum (why am I speaking swamphick?) with only just enough damage inflicted on them in lost manpower and wealth for them to no longer be in any doubt about hating our guts, but without hindering them in any significant way. Which is, of course, why the Italiotes are doing this -- they want to see no decisive victor, and with both parties itching to fight one another to spend their blood and treasure on that, rather than on anything that might make either of us strong enough to impose on their cities.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Which wasn't going to happen because they are a peer power. And because Metapontion explicitly stated that they would intervene militarily against us if we weaken Taras too much. Which is what the situation would be like under your stated Hopes.

Barring literal miracles with Memmon achieving those goals would have provoked Metapontion and the other italia polis to intervene not with a peace deal but with their shield walls. Throughly giving us a beating and forcing us to pay reparations to Taras and thus preserving the balance in the power in the region with both Eretria and Taras weakened and perhaps crippled by war while they walk away with loot.

When I said this was the best for us I meant it. We struck the balance where we won enough to come ahead, but did not win so much so as to provoke a Metapontine Coalition against us.
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A fair point, I suppose, although I really don't think a decisive victory or some territorial gains really would've provoked a coalition. Metapontion would be firmly driven into an alliance with Taras, however. Various trade-offs and hypotheticals, but personally I view a revanchist unweakened Taras in two decades as more of an issue than Eretria being viewed as a potential hegemon by her neighbors. Taras will almost certainly form a coalition of their own, and if we keep growing in strength (which of course we will) the city-states fighting for status-quo will oppose us anyway. On the other hand, perhaps we'll be in a better position then, and will definitely be fighting diplomatically to prevent our isolation.

Speculation aside, wrapping this up quickly is for the best. We need to ensure Syrakuse doesn't pull any shit, kill the Illyrian pirates and further consolidate our hold in the Adriatic, and of course finally subjugate the Dauni.
 
A big part of trade centers lie in geography and climate. The land and wind dictates what makes a good trade post, even if its a burned ruin

[X] Accept the peace.
 
Void Stalker said:
Assuming Taras has the same population as Etria in terms of freemen, we killed 4.1% of their freemen and we killed more hoplites then we and the league lost. All of which will slow them down somewhat. Could it have been bigger? Oh yeah, if we had not fumbled the cav roll we would have inflicted more casualties. But no matter how it stands we came out on top after this war. We just need to win the peace, get the Messapii to fall in line and trained up. Between them, our league, ourselves and Peuketii we have a bigger pop base then Taras does, with proper growth we can outpace them and manpower wins wars.
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I am sure I remember Cetashwayo saying that Eretria's radicalism had resulted in the largest freeman population in Italy.

@Cetashwayo: How does our population compare?

Godwinson said:
This wasn't a victory, this is status quo ante bellum (why am I speaking swamphick?) with only just enough damage inflicted on them in lost manpower and wealth for them to no longer be in any doubt about hating our guts, but without hindering them in any significant way. Which is, of course, why the Italiotes are doing this -- they want to see no decisive victor, and with both parties itching to fight one another to spend their blood and treasure on that, rather than on anything that might make either of us strong enough to impose on their cities.
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This is assuming that their war party isn't undermined by this. We could, oh, I don't know, do some diplomacy and help ensure that's exactly what happens.

LonelyWolf999 said:
A fair point, I suppose, although I really don't think a decisive victory or some territorial gains really would've provoked a coalition. Metapontion would be firmly driven into an alliance with Taras, however. Various trade-offs and hypotheticals, but personally I view a revanchist unweakened Taras in two decades as more of an issue than Eretria being viewed as a potential hegemon by her neighbors. Taras will almost certainly form a coalition of their own, and if we keep growing in strength (which of course we will) the city-states fighting for status-quo will oppose us anyway. On the other hand, perhaps we'll be in a better position then, and will definitely be fighting diplomatically to prevent our isolation.
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Revanchist for what exactly? For Messapii lands they never owned?

Technically, Taras is gaining land in this peace (though at the cost of losing hope of expanding against the Messapii for the next 20 years). So exactly why are they going to be so resentful?

fasquardon
 
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fasquardon said:
I am sure I remember Cetashwayo saying that Eretria's radicalism had resulted in the largest freeman population in Italy.

@Cetashwayo: How does our population compare?
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I am very circumspect of giving real comparisons because I have no real estimates on how big Taras' population was in this period. Suffice it to say that unlike Eretria's 45/55 split, Taras' population is mostly citizens, with a notable population of slaves and freemen. Taras' advantage is that it started with a larger citizen population and has kept it through natural increase and rich soil. Many of the western Greeks had metic populations, and sometimes there were unique circumstances that created massive conflict, as with Syrakousai which was split between the founding citizens and the rest of the free population. The free population killed and exiled the founders, who appealed to Gelon of Gela, who conquered Syrakousai and soon instituted a situation in which traditional notions of citizenship didn't really matter because there were no political rights and he was deporting populations from across Sicily to Syrakousai.

This is reflected in the fact that here, after Hiero's death the more amiable and speedy nature of the collapse as well as Eretrian inspirations created a situation in which Sicilian cities see themselves as having a far more common heritage than other Greeks. The Italiotes occasionally consider coalitions and common peaces and so on but the "core" Sikeliote territory, from Gela in the southwest to Naxus in the northeast, see themselves as a single unit. The Sikeliote League is the strongest single league in all of the Greek world, with almost-common citizenship (they're not quite there but members of all Sikeliote League cities have rights in other league cities foreign residents do not), ceremonies, coinage and government, which it is able to do purely because of the situation Gelo and Hiero left Sicily in. This is also why it is able to hold its own as a united power against Syrakousai, which sees itself as the cultural, economic, and political center of all of the Sikeliotes. The Sicilian cities which were never part of Gelo and Hiero's hegemony (Selinous, Himera, Akragas) adhere to a more traditional model centered around the city state.

Due to this, however, everyone else in Sicily, Italy, and North Africa has an extremely vested interest to not allow one power or another to triumph. A unified Sikelia could overpower all of its neighbors, challenge Carthage, and easily cross over into disunited Italy.
 
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fasquardon said:
Revanchist for what exactly? For Messapii lands they never owned?

Technically, Taras is gaining land in this peace (though at the cost of losing hope of expanding against the Messapii for the next 20 years). So exactly why are they going to be so resentful?
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The several hundred dead citizens and freemen and all their grieving widows and children presumably. On top of the betrayal.
 
Godwinson said:
This wasn't a victory, this is status quo ante bellum (why am I speaking swamphick?) with only just enough damage inflicted on them in lost manpower and wealth for them to no longer be in any doubt about hating our guts, but without hindering them in any significant way. Which is, of course, why the Italiotes are doing this -- they want to see no decisive victor, and with both parties itching to fight one another to spend their blood and treasure on that, rather than on anything that might make either of us strong enough to impose on their cities.
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The Eretrian Revanchist faction just narrowly took control, promptly got into a war, and immediately got slapped down pretty comprehensively. This does not bode well for the prospects of their potential successors two decades hence.
Particularly not when we should be spending that two decades diplomatically cajoling the other Italiotes into the benefits of a more permanent arrangement of peace and trade.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
The Eretrian Revanchist faction just narrowly took control, promptly got into a war, and immediately got slapped down pretty comprehensively. This does not bode well for the prospects of their potential successors two decades hence.
Particularly not when we should be spending that two decades diplomatically cajoling the other Italiotes into the benefits of a more permanent arrangement of peace and trade.
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Interesting freudian slip there...
 
*rolls eyes*

If you wanted a more decisive victory and more significant casualties, you should have tried to help push Steel Ram. Stop complaining that the plan did exactly what it wanted to do: Lasting Victory. We have not cemented their hatred of us and created insurance that if they try to start a fight in the next 20 years, the Metapontion and co. will be on our side instead.
Cetashwayo said:
Well, Lykai is right there, and Kerkyra is suitably distracted...
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So if we were to send word that their is a slight possibility that there may be a potential hearty bonfire taking place there, would they help set up "festivities"? :V
 
In particular, one thing we're likely to do is deploy at least some of our forces to bolster the Italiotes against the Brutii. It gives us a chance to maintain some level of experience among our land forces after the Dauni are dealt with, since crushing the Illyrians will be mainly a thing of naval and amphibious operations and Syracuse is going to require us to solve the lack of siege equipment problem if we want to offer a true threat to them without necessarily having to commit to however many years it would take to starve them out (assuming we can also smash any interfering navy so that they can't just ship food in, which will be a difficult task); further, it gives us a way to ingratiate ourselves to the Italiotes and thus start bringing them into our general orbit.
 
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