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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] Accept the peace.

"While is leaves the taste of bile on my tongue to say as such, there is little to be gained from rejecting this poisoned apple and much to be lost. We will need to see to it that our so-called dominion over the Messapii becomes so in truth, without raising the hackles of their pride, for if the Messapii turn on us, I have little faith that the Italiotes would march on Taras should they seek to take advantage of our distraction."
 
For a war we Leeroy Jenkins'd our way into, that was pretty good.

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Given how democratic Eretria is, do we also cremate our dead and maintain funerary urns?
 
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Basically, for the purpose of this peace, whoever breaks the peace, the Italiotes will intervene against them.

As for the Messapii being goaded into breaking the peace and drawing us into the war, are we not the patriarchs of our household? Are we so weak that we cannot discipline an unruly servant or child? Will the Messapii raise arms against us if we prevent them from waging war upon Taras? They ran into our waiting arms because of the Tarantines, and we have humbled the Tarantines. If the Messapii wage war upon Taras they shall make reparation upon Taras, and we shall make war upon them and give them the chiding they would rightly deserve.

It is a foolish man or the strong man who provokes the bear with naught but his own hands. If they go to war, they had better hope that they are in fact the strong man, and not the foolish.
 
Honestly, I'm pretty happy with how this turned out.

It was a bit frantic, but we managed to deal with the Dauni threat, bring the Mesapii into our sphere of influence, and pre-empt Tarantine aggression before they managed to make plans against us. We have probably bought ourselves at least five to ten years of peace with them, if not a much longer-lasting peace. Now we have time and breathing room to focus on building and growth at home, bring the Mesapii more fully into the fold, and subduing the Dauni. Balancing the last two is probably going to feel a little like spinning plates; but I'm confident we can manage it.

It was a challenge, but one we overcame, and on balance I think the decision to pre-empt this war was the correct one.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Honestly, I'm pretty happy with how this turned out.

It was a bit frantic, but we managed to deal with the Dauni threat, bring the Mesapii into our sphere of influence, and pre-empt Tarantine aggression before they managed to make plans against us. We have probably bought ourselves at least five to ten years of peace with them, if not a much longer-lasting peace. Now we have time and breathing room to focus on building and growth at home, bring the Mesapii more fully into the fold, and subduing the Dauni. Balancing the last two is probably going to feel a little like spinning plates; but I'm confident we can manage it.

It was a challenge, but one we overcame, and on balance I think the decision to pre-empt this war was the correct one.
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We dont have to bring ALL the Dauni into the fold. I am perfectly content breaking off a few cities here and there. Especially the ones that secure us the coast.
 
Professor Vesca said:
We dont have to bring ALL the Dauni into the fold. I am perfectly content breaking off a few cities here and there. Especially the ones that secure us the coast.
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Oh, absolutely. A good beginning would be stronger alliances and ties with Salpia and Herdonia, I think, and do whatever we need to secure Lake Salpia for salt extraction. We can afford to take a very gradual strategy here. Biting off more than we can easily chew would probably be a mistake.
 
Godwinson said:
"The Metapontines have carved 'to the Master of the Messapii' onto the apple and thrown it on the ground between allies, knowing that it will bring discord. All that is required is for the Tarentines to offer ceaseless insult to the Messapii, to drive them to itch for war and chafe under the yoke that the Italiotes placed on them and tied to our hands, with the result being either a war between Eretria and the Messapii, for the sake of Taras, or that the Messapii will make war on Taras, and thus dishonor Eretria before all Hellenes. They claim this is a peace for twenty years, yet give Taras the means to break it at their leisure, with Eretria bearing the dishonor of its sundering. So speaks Theophilus, son of Theophilus, who ran the Bare Road, and grandson of Theophilus, who stood against the Medes under Artaphernes."
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Wise words indeed! But it was we who pushed Taras to alarm in seeking mastery of the Messapii. Now, after the vows we made to the Messapii and the blood spilt defending ourselves against the aggression of Taras, I see no way but to commit to the choices we have thus far made, and ensure that our mastery over the Messapii is strong and fair. Let them be obedient to us and to find wisdom and prosperity in their obedience.

As to the treaty, I call this a great victory indeed! We did not go to war in order to become hegemon of the Italiotes! Nor to destroy Taras! We went to war to defend ourselves from aggression, to ensure Taras would not be able to take advantage of us if Syrakousai or Korinthos attacked us. We went to war in order to ensure a hostile Taras did not subjugate all the Messapii. This peace gives us all we wished!

I believe that had we been wiser men, we could have had all of this without a drop of blood shed. We were not wiser men. We chose to ally with the Messapii in a provocative way. It is fair that we admit to this in peace. But it is also true that we did not ally with the barbaroi with plans of aggression against Taras. And for their offensive demands and intemperate rush to attack us, Taras by this peace justly humbles herself. This is good, for in truth the greater blame is with Myron and his war-party in Taras.

And most importantly, this proposal offers peace for the Messapii and for Eretria with the other Italiotes for 20 years. If Metapontion herself were to break this sacred peace, it would be an offence before the gods that all the other Italiotes would need to avenge. This secures our city greatly.

The only detraction to this peace is its ill-treatment of the Messapii, but their weakness in war leaves us little choice. If we continue the war, even if Metapontion and her allies are proven toothless, only the blessing of the gods would grant us victory in this siege so great as to undo the losses of the Messapii, and I fear we will not be favoured by the gods if we choose to continue war when by accepting peace we could devote ourselves to bettering their temples. Forget not the ill omen at the temple of Zeus!

And even if one among you did have genius to equal that of Odysseus and a plan that would end the siege of Taras in our favour tomorrow, I say again, I do not see any profit in destroying Taras. Now that Taras is chastened and contained, we profit from their strength in the threat they pose to the Messapii and in the fullness of time, may profit further from their strength as allies again. For though the men of Taras are lesser than those of our fair Eretria, and their impious aggression has cost them the favour of the gods, they have proven that they are still a city of valorous and true Greeks!

[X] Accept the peace.

fasquardon
 
The peace deal is fantastic and we should grab it with both hands.
The biggest issue of warring with Taras was always going to be the problem of what happened after we humbled them, that since we couldn't viably destroy them, we'd have another cycle of revanchism and have to be constantly on guard for their eventual response.
Here, we have the other Italiotes guaranteeing us peace on our southern flank for twenty years, confining Taras, and giving us an in for our superior diplomatic skills to turn such a foundation into a more elaborate agreement, potentially an Italiote League to resist to the pressures applied by the rest of the Hellenic world.
In comparison, giving up some talents is a pittance.

[X] Accept the peace.
 
It's a good peace especially because it's generous enough that we have a reasonable chance of reinvigorating the Tarantine peace party, rather than turning the city over into bitter revanchism. The fact that Taras only very recently turned to a pro-war politics, and this was so disastrously discredited immediately afterwards, is also really helpful here. If we play our cards right we may be able to gradually nurture diplomatic relations.

Despite our recent hostilities, taking the longer view I'm actually pretty optimistic about being able to build a genuine peace between the Italiotes, founded on diplomacy. The reaction and resolution to this war is actually a pretty encouraging sign of that.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
Honestly, I'm pretty happy with how this turned out.

It was a bit frantic, but we managed to deal with the Dauni threat, bring the Mesapii into our sphere of influence, and pre-empt Tarantine aggression before they managed to make plans against us. We have probably bought ourselves at least five to ten years of peace with them, if not a much longer-lasting peace. Now we have time and breathing room to focus on building and growth at home, bring the Mesapii more fully into the fold, and subduing the Dauni. Balancing the last two is probably going to feel a little like spinning plates; but I'm confident we can manage it.

It was a challenge, but one we overcame, and on balance I think the decision to pre-empt this war was the correct one.
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I can't help but stew over what we could've accomplished. The big three things which have struck by craw so badly are thus: That Metapontion gets to trot out of here feeling and looking like the big man, that Taras hasn't actually had their lands and position on the peninsula reduced - indeed, the opposite occurred, with them just increasing and consolidating their territory overall and the two dependancies show no sign of being willing to flip sides and join our league, and we were unable to inflict any critical defeats on Taras. The war at sea went brilliantly from beginning to end, they'll never try and contest there again, but on land it was just kind of a mess. The Messapii were completely useless, which was disappointing but not surprising. I was much more dismayed at how the land campaign went. While the failure of a siege and intervention from other City-States was predictable and acknowledged, the failure to pull off our little guerrilla campaign genuinely stings. While casualties were lopsided, Taras realized what was going on and successfully fought their way out, which then just lead to a strait-forward battle.

Overall, we weren't able to inflict serious casualties or genuinely hurt Taras. While I understand checking their attempt at expansion was a success and burning their port will take them a while to recover from, I can't help but feel like they'll have fully recovered within a decade, this time properly preparing for a throw-down and the warmongers given credence instead of humiliated. I'm personally not confident we'll be able to win the battle over the hearts and minds of our neighbors, especially if Sparta wins the Peleponesian war.
 
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The Serpent's Vice strategy ending up not going as well as its proponents had hoped was unfortunate, but as Wellington said, only a battle lost can be close to as sad as a battle won. We still did win, with relatively few casualties, and that's not nothing. It's also a somewhat separate issue from the decision to go to war itself.

Hurting Taras more is only a good thing if we think our objective was genuinely to cripple or destroy them, rather than humble them and discredit their pro-war faction. That's not necessarily the case; although it may be. It probably depends on our overall strategy and long-term goals here. Which it may be a good idea to have a discussion about at some point.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

My attempt at making a split pouch sling out of a single length of paracord did not go well.
Think its time to go back and try my hand at the basic pouch.
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
I can't help but stew over what we could've accomplished. The big three things which have struck by craw so badly are thus: That Metapontion gets to trot out of here feeling and looking like the big man, that Taras hasn't actually had their lands and position on the peninsula reduced - indeed, the opposite occurred, with them just increasing and consolidating their territory overall and the two dependancies show no sign of being willing to flip sides and join our league, and we were unable to inflict any critical defeats on Taras. The war at sea went brilliantly from beginning to end, they'll never try and contest there again, but on land it was just kind of a mess. The Messapii were completely useless, which was disappointing but not surprising. I was much more dismayed at how the land campaign went. While the failure of a siege and intervention from other City-States was predictable and acknowledged, the failure to pull off our little guerrilla campaign genuinely stings. While casualties were lopsided, Taras realized what was going on and successfully fought their way out, which then just lead to a strait-forward battle.

Overall, we weren't able to inflict serious casualties or genuinely hurt Taras. While I understand checking their attempt at expansion was a success and burning their port will take them a while to recover from, I can't help but feel like they'll have fully recovered within a decade, this time properly preparing for a throw-down and the warmongers given credence instead of humiliated.
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I'm not sure how the warmongers were given credence here.

The Tarentines lost. Eretria forced them back inside the city walls and besieged them. This peace is a tacit admission of defeat. They're paying us money, acknowledging that the Messapii are ours, and agreeing not to take revenge for the next two decades. The smoldering ruins of Aoxenta and a small strip of land are a pretty pathetic consolation prize next to that.

[X] Accept the peace.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the psiloi with a sprained ankle, do vote to accept the peace.

We got what we wanted. The rest of Italia agrees. So what are we waiting for?
 
Can we imagine the campaign going better? Yes, of course. The Messapii might have shown some actual military competence and we could have defeated Taras in open battle more decisively, with greater looses for them and less looses for us. All those things might have happended, and they wouldn't have given us much more then what we have right now.

Taras wouldn't have Aoxenta and the track of land along the coast and Thurii might have gotten Herakleia Lukania. That's it. To get more, to make Taras weakness more then temporary, to get a peace that eject them for good from the tip of the Sallentine peninsula and allow us to annex their colonies there (lets not kid ourselves, they're was never a chance they would switch side and willingly join the Epulian League) we would have needed the capacity to put Taras under a siege that truly threatened the city, that never was really in the cards, at least short of some weird twist of events beyond our control. Especially with Metapontion and possibly some of the other Italiote cities threatening to intervene to break the siege.

Machiavelli once famously stated that politics where the art of the possible and we have secured most of what was actually possible. They're is no point having regrets for what never was.
 
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We also crushed their navy badly. They lost the naval encounter where they outnumbered us and lost several ships there while we lost none. We then went and sacked their harbor and burned more of their ships. Not to mention launched two naval raids. We are strong at sea and it showed and Taras is vulnerable to the sea something they will have to consider before facing us again.

By the way how does our freemen pop compare to Taras and the other Italia Greeks?
 
LonelyWolf999 said:
I was much more dismayed at how the land campaign went. While the failure of a siege and intervention from other City-States was predictable and acknowledged, the failure to pull off our little guerrilla campaign genuinely stings.
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OOC: I thought our guerilla campaign went off well. Yes, it could have gone better. But we took an early lead and maintained it right up to the walls of Taras, where we were forced to engage in the clash of hopilites at a time and place that on balance favoured us (since we were able to bring our navy into play, which saved us from paying a heavy cost from the lower quality of our hopilites). I would class Eretria's performance in this war as on par with any of the victories of Julius Caesar. There's a reason why guerilla war wasn't king in the Greek world at this time. (I recommend reading some Xenophon for a taste of what the phalanx can do against lighter and less disciplined foes.) Our adoption of guerilla tactics could only serve as the prelude for a favourable hopilite clash or a favourable siege. Unless the enemy commander was an idiot, one of the two would have been needed for victory.

fasquardon
 
Is Taras a major commercial power, such that by sinking their ships we can rapidly move in to acquire their markets?
 
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