Remove ads

Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Reader mode
@Cetashwayo with the way this peace is structured; with us, Taras and Metapontion not being allowed to attack each other. What would happen if Thurii attacked Herakleia Lukania and Taras retaliated? Would we be able to step in to defend our ally?

I'm just curious how strict this peace actually is?
 
So Serpent's Vice was not as alarming to the Italiotes on the front end, but our naval dominance and Ekdromoi have started to stir them.

I'm fine with this peace.
 
[X] Accept the peace.
Frankly we're unlikely to actually be able to maintain a siege for much longer and doing so risks disaster if our men start leaving and Taras counter attacks. The peace terms aren't amazing but they do secure our flank for another 20 years and leave the Mesapii in our sphere of influence.
 
I personally don't want to include Metapontion as part of the peace. What have they done to deserve such treatment?
 
HastyGaming said:
@Cetashwayo with the way this peace is structured; with us, Taras and Metapontion not being allowed to attack each other. What would happen if Thurii attacked Herakleia Lukania and Taras retaliated? Would we be able to step in to defend our ally?

I'm just curious how strict this peace actually is?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The truce should actually include Thurii as well. Fixed.
 
[X] Refuse the peace and continue the siege.

I find it utterly bizarre that everyone is acknowledging that the treaty is unbelievably generous to Taras, and yet still want to accept it anyway.

This treaty doesn't solve the problem posed by Taras at all. It actively feeds the narrative of the war faction, by formally recognising that Eretria 'provoked' the war. This treaty is a poisoned chalice that will only cement Taras's hostility, even as it leaves their power intact.
 
[X] Accept the peace.


Surprised the losses in that final battle were so even given the breakthrough on the left and the big roll that lead to a pursuit phase where our cavalry should have inflicted heavy losses. Also that one phase we could not get out of the single digits ouch.

Overall a happy affair. Of note Taras had at least 25 ships to our 22 total and 15 on campaign but in the end we sunk a bunch of theirs and killed off some rowers. We did expose some deficiencies though like siege warfare.
 
Void Stalker said:
Surprised the losses in that final battle were so even given the breakthrough on the left and the big roll that lead to a pursuit phase where our cavalry should have inflicted heavy losses. Also that one phase we could not get out of the single digits ouch.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Tarentines were up against their own walls. They just went back into the city and closed the gates.
 
[X] Accept the peace.

"Fellow citizens, this peace proposal comes as a boon from the gods themselves. We will be free to return to our fields and occupations now. We have humbled Taras, and by bringing the Messapii under our dominion we can enforce a peace between them and Taras as well. We will prove to our friends and foes alike in Italia that we do not seek to enslave other cities as Syracuse once did. The institution of a Common Peace among Italiotes is a fine precedent for the future should we need to counter more Syracusan aggression or the encroachment of the barbaroi of the interior, or should the war in Hellas descend upon us here.

Some have expressed the complaint that an admission of provoking the war is false. But I say it is plain truth. Had we not allied with the Messapii, the war would not have come. The ekklesia understood this and voted for it anyway. We would have fought had Taras or Corinth or some other power made such a pact with the Dauni ourselves.

Nor am I much concerned about profit and loss. Only a fool thinks that a city can profit by fighting a peer. We would return the spoils from the naval campaign for a larger indemnity. We are not dishonored thus, and if any man of the fleet has claim to particular talents we can pay them for their service to replace that which is returned.

What I am concerned by is that we require peace to make Eretria the city that it should be. The effluent in our streets is a disgrace. The neglect of the gods could have been fatal. Only our long tradition of respect for the sacred oaths and pacts we make has stayed the hands of their vengeance. So let us return, crowned with victory, and build a city worthy of returning to."
 
[X] Accept the peace.

This is amazing, a 20 year peace
Secretariat said:
I do think that depends on the terms we offer them. If we give the Tarantines extremely generous terms at a moment of strength, I think we can win their trust through our generosity; conversely, if we try to extract everything we can out of them, we'll definitely cement them as an enemy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I doubted it, and I am so glad to be wrong. This was exactly what you asked for.

Now, I do not think it will be easy, but if we can get them to consider joining the league 20 years down the line, then this will worth it.

We were friends with Taras once. It was through through circumstances outside of our control that we turned on them. Even now, there is still a majority faction that wants peace
Cetashwayo said:
But the wounds of the Eretrian abandonment of Taras ran deep. Although many Tarentines did not see Eretria as a threat, or only a distant one, others, led by Myron Aristeides, were of a different mind. Arguing that the Eretrians needed to be defeated and their hegemony confined to the region known as Epulia north of the Sallento, Myron was able to win a contested election as proboulos. Still, his political capital remained low; he had been one of four candidates, and had won on a plurality. What would convince the people that he could lead them to war against Eretria? He needed something decisive to prove to them the folly of peace with the Eretrians.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He had only barely won, on a plurality as well.

If we admit fault for provocation, we can neatly allow the city of Taras to blame Myron for leading them into a losing war.
Cetashwayo said:
Myron had a responsibility as strategos as well as proboulos, and now had to prove himself before the fickle assembly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


A twenty year peace would be just what we need to create ties to Taras. That our treaties with the barbaroi, is not meant to better attack them, but to allow better ties with all Greeks.
 
With this peace we basically paid...
155 Talents [-333 (Costs of war) + 60 (Loot) + 119 (Peace Time Upkeep)]
the lives of Isokrates Hypatos, 42 Ekdromoi, 170 Hoplites, 2 Kleos Exoria, 29 Cavalry and 92 Psilloi
... to gain de jure dominion over Hyria, Manduria, Rudiae, Neriton and Lupiae and the guaranteed future enmity of Taras.

The light Tarantine losses are probably comparable to - or even lower than - what they would have taken to secure these territories for themselves, so I will neglect them here.
By taking the peace on offer here our standing with the other Italote cities should not take any damage, and take it we must. For otherwise we will face both Metapontion and Taras on the field next year. Thurii's army will probably be forced to stay at home due to the threat of Krotone. At the same time by taking peace here, we might still find some opportunity to weaken Ausculos, by prying Salapia and Herdonia away from his control.

[X] Accept the peace.

Was this war worth it? Yes, if we manage to turn the Messapii into subjects as loyal as their fellow Iapygians. However this will probably will take further expenditures in bribes and maybe even blood.
 
Last edited:
Cetashwayo said:
The truce should actually include Thurii as well. Fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ok, good to know.

Still, replace Thurii with a hypothetical ally we make in the next 10 years. How would it play out? Could we aid them against Taras if we didn't start the fight? I'm just really curious how it would play out, what the strictures of the peace actually are.
LonelyWolf999 said:
I get the impression this is basically an ultimatum from Metapontion with the tacit support of the rest of Italia.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Essentially yes, although they're not really in as strong a position as it first appears. There are four cities involved in this (ignoring our ally Thurii who would fight on if we promised them Herakleia Lukania), Metapontion, Krotone, Rhegion and Lokri Epixephyrii.

Now Rhegion is somewhat friendly with us as we fought alongside them in the past and we're both aligned against Syrakousai. Krotone and Lokri Epixephyrii are on the other side of that, they're aligned with Syrakousai, but aren't exactly friends.

Now Metapontion would probably intervene on Taras' side to preserve the balance of power, but they would only intervene to stop us winning, not to see us lose. Rhegion could potentially be bought off due to the historical ties of friendship we have. Krotone and Lokri Epixephyrii are in a difficult situation, if they march north to fight us they expose Syrakousai right at the moment it looks like conflict might break out with the Sikeliote League. And if the Sikeliote League emerges victorious they lose a huge ally and leave themselves increasingly isolated.

I'm still not sure on the best move though. A better peace is obviously desirable, but do we trust our Xenoparakletor to buy off Rhegion? Can Syrakousai convince their allies not to go to war and leave them exposed?

It's a difficult decision.
 
Y'know what? No. No, I'm calling their bluff. Metapontion probably would march on us to ensure the status-quo, but it would be trivial to undermine any sort of greater Italian coalition. We've won this war, and having the result be us getting threatened into a white peace and Taras getting even more land as well as consolidating their position in the peninsula is unacceptable. Crack open the sacred treasury and triple the troops' pay in order to ensure morale and prepare for a Metapontion intervention, and starve Taras out.

[X] Refuse the peace and continue the siege.
 
Droman said:
I'd rather have Metapontion and Taras warring than not. Then they can have this 'sacred peace' of the Italiotes thrust on them while being short of a few hundred hoplites.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
On paper we would not be allowed to intervene unless on the side of Taras, because of the truce, though I would guess that Metapontion would suddenly not care about the truce any longer. Also, if Metapontion was losing the war, then I would think that they would be happy if we enforced a peace.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top