Metapontion allowing our hoplites through before the battle in no way means they'll continue to be receptive to our entreaties after we leave the bulk of Taras' military-age population dead on the battlefield.

Where are you getting this from? This would be utterly atypical for the period or basically any battle between pre-modern armies, let alone a border war between two-mid level city states. Like, feel free to refer to @Cetashwayo's post outlining how battles will work if you don't believe me.

As a general rule, losses of even as much as ten percent are very high for battles fought with muscle and sharp pointy things. People who are resisting or running away are quite hard to kill, and people get tired.
 
Man, this debate will be so fun to see reflected in the next update. Lots of shouting, lots of tempers flaring, people changing sides faster than you can lift a klefte. Minor leaders throwing their weight and supporters behind whatever option seems to be closest to theirs and has a chance of winning.
 
The thing is that without dealing them a crushing defeat in the field, we end up in the same place as with the Serpent's Vise: besieging Taras, waiting for them to either starve, sally out, or find some allies. Except with enough extra dead men on either side to harden attitudes towards what constitutes an acceptable peace, and without having first weakened the city's ability to hold out against our siege. In which case, why seek to bring a field battle in the first place?
 
You seem to misunderstand what would happen in battle leading to victory. There is a crash and it is the losing side the loses the multitude.

In your fear of defeat, you block the chance of clear victory.

The Serpent plan will have little chance of defeating Taras, and merely delays the inevitable comflict with them angrier and better prepared.

We comitted to this fight last vote, we cannot afford to look weak and barbaric.

I know that even the winner takes 5-10% losses. In my opinion the real victor of pitched battle would be Metapontion, who would very much like for both local powers to grind against themselves.
Also, in my opinion, we do not require a decisive win in this war. We only need Taras to back down. And that can be more easily achieved with Serpent plan.
 
The thing is that without dealing them a crushing defeat in the field, we end up in the same place as with the Serpent's Vise: besieging Taras, waiting for them to either starve, sally out, or find some allies. Except with enough extra dead men on either side to harden attitudes towards what constitutes an acceptable peace, and without having first weakened the city's ability to hold out against our siege. In which case, why seek to bring a field battle in the first place?

Because a resounding field victory will explicitly garner more glory and respect from all of our neighbours, as outlined in the update and in the discussion afterwards. Apologies if this was somehow unclear on my part.

It is unlikely we will seriously try to starve out a city with a port in any case. As said before, this is not an existential issue for either of us. Once besieged, as in either plan, they will probably come to terms.

Furthermore, even ten percent losses of an city-state's hoplites is a major blow, because of how hard to replace citizens are. When you kill an enemy polis' citizen-hoplites, you are also killing their farmers, their craftsmen, their leaders, their future. Taras will probably not seek a quarrel with us for at least five to ten years if they are defeated decisively in a field battle. (Cetashwayo's post on how battles work between Greek city-states is really worth a read here, it's very informative.) With something like Serpent's Vice, they could be causing trouble again in perhaps five, and also have more options to just prolong the war and try to enlist outside aid.

Now, of course Serpent's Vice has a lot of cool advantages too. They are, in fact, both good plans, which both have striking advantages, and some disadvantages. Our expert and experienced generals actually know what they're doing.
 
That is rather disingenuous. Those would also happen if your plan won as well.

It is better than doing nothing and letting them aid Taras in battle. We are not even asking them to join us but to let our allies pass through, leaving them unscathed.

There's no Ill intent behind me asking the QM about those modifiers.

I just wanted to know what maluses we have for the plan that has us confront Taras without the Messappii.

My comment up thread before this recent question actually speaks on Steel Ram's strength to bonuses.

Well, if Steel Ram wins, this will be a very mobile army. And with a victory from the skirmishing phase, that should give us bonuses to even things out and stack the battle in our favor.
 
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I felt @Orisha91's question was pretty reasonable, honestly. And it's always a good idea to ask questions.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 26, 2019 at 5:18 PM, finished with 1307 posts and 54 votes.

  • [X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    --[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    [X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    [X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    -[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Carry A Big Stick (With A Snake Wrapped Round It)
    [X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    [X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
    [X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Greater Iron Storm
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] Plan: Iron and Fire
    [X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
 
Well, in all fairness, the main contribution of the Epulian League would be their hoplites, and Steel Ram would be calling on that a bit more directly than our campaign of indirect warfare, which leverages the Mesapii much more heavily.

However we now know that the League will in fact eagerly fight on the battlefield given we have accepted their reasonable requests, so either way, it's all good.
 
The statistics on battlefield casualties are about the percentage dead or critically wounded in a given engagement, not the percentage of the city's entire manpower killed. If Eretria lost 10% of its army in a fight that is less than 10% of its overall manpower because not all potential levies are on the field. It is just that sometimes you get exceptionally more than that, and that losses add up.
 
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It is unlikely we will seriously try to starve out a city with a port in any case. As said before, this is not an existential issue for either of us. Once besieged, as in either plan, they will probably come to terms..

Err, we totally can. Regardless of what plans wins...if things boil down to a siege, we have the naval capacity to blockade their harbors and prevent the shipment of food by sea. If we can also siege the city from land, we will have the option of starving the city to surrender. And surrender then is obviously going to be much more devastating for Taras than just military defeat on the battlefield.

Where are you getting this from? This would be utterly atypical for the period or basically any battle between pre-modern armies, let alone a border war between two-mid level city states. Like, feel free to refer to @Cetashwayo's post outlining how battles will work if you don't believe me.

As a general rule, losses of even as much as ten percent are very high for battles fought with muscle and sharp pointy things. People who are resisting or running away are quite hard to kill, and people get tired.

Hoplites in full panoply aren't particularly fast. Even if they should ditch their armor, they can't outrun cavalry. I can easily see us racking up enemy losses much higher than ten percent provided we can rout their cav off the field early on.
 
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It was more that they referenced only Steel Ram rather than simply state the question in general. It was a leading question that made it sound that if Steel Ram won, the plurality would give it maluses, thus less reasons to support it.
I didn't consider the plurality of the voting tbh. Was more concerned with the recent concessions Eretria has had to give up to Metics and league members It was more me wanting to know about any weaknesses of the winning plan I hadn't considered. I thought Steel Ram had it even though the gap closed.

I said as much about the Drakonia plan when it was leading. I said there would be problems with wrangling the Messappii and I still think theyll be a liability with their infighting.

All good though. I actually think Thurii is better ally in this fight than the Messapii, so Metapontion seeing us taking on Taras by our lonesome and asking them to let Thurii through might be a great.

Ill have no harsh feelings if Steel Ram wins.
 
Err, we totally can. Regardless of what plans wins...if things boil down to a siege, we have the naval capacity to blockade their harbors and prevent the shipment of food by sea. If we can also siege the city from land, we will have the option of starving the city to surrender. And surrender then is obviously going to be much more devastating for Taras than just military defeat on the battlefield.

No, I don't believe we can, or that we will.

Permanent blockades are extremely challenging with triremes and similar galleys, as they have incredibly poor sea-keeping qualities and very low sea endurance, most crucially in their very low capacity to store freshwater. Blockades as a general concept don't start to become a regularly practiced thing until the late 17th to 18th centuries, when you start to see professional navies in round ships that have the endurance to remain on station for long periods of time. Alexander the Great, Xerxes or Rome would probably have the number of ships needed and the logistics to fully cut off a single rebellious city by sea. Athens might.

We do not.

Furthermore, even if this were possible, it would still take years. Eretria herself has three years of food. Sieges prosecuted to the finish tended to last years in this period, and be very grim affairs indeed.

We aren't going to be doing that. This is not an existential war. We will very likely be coming to terms if we have forced them into their walls, either way.
 
Actually both plans involve a blockade. The difference is that one of them has us wreck Taras' navy and docks first.
 
Because a resounding field victory will explicitly garner more glory and respect from all of our neighbours, as outlined in the update and in the discussion afterwards. Apologies if this was somehow unclear on my part.

It is unlikely we will seriously try to starve out a city with a port in any case. As said before, this is not an existential issue for either of us. Once besieged, as in either plan, they will probably come to terms.

Furthermore, even ten percent losses of an city-state's hoplites is a major blow, because of how hard to replace citizens are. When you kill an enemy polis' citizen-hoplites, you are also killing their farmers, their craftsmen, their leaders, their future. Taras will probably not seek a quarrel with us for at least five to ten years if they are defeated decisively in a field battle. (Cetashwayo's post on how battles work between Greek city-states is really worth a read here, it's very informative.) With something like Serpent's Vice, they could be causing trouble again in perhaps five, and also have more options to just prolong the war and try to enlist outside aid.

Now, of course Serpent's Vice has a lot of cool advantages too. They are, in fact, both good plans, which both have striking advantages, and some disadvantages. Our expert and experienced generals actually know what they're doing.

Got it, thanks -- missed the extra glory.

Assuming Lasting as the default, the way we want to evaluate Ram is to weigh the extra risk in casualties against the glory that we'd accrue, and come to a decision as to whether that extra glory is worth the additional risk to our soldiers, yeah?

---

Long-term, my understanding was that we wanted to bring Taras in as a member of the League, eventually. Is that the goal, or is the goal to isolate and conquer the polis?
 
Tara's would be brought into the hegemony but because they fought us they wouldn't be given the same privileges as the rest of the league. That is their punishment for fighting us. If they want the privileges they have to earn them.
 
I didn't consider the plurality of the voting tbh. Was more concerned with the recent concessions Eretria has had to give up to Metics and league members It was more me wanting to know about any weaknesses of the winning plan I hadn't considered. I thought Steel Ram had it even though the gap closed.

I said as much about the Drakonia plan when it was leading. I said there would be problems with wrangling the Messappii and I still think theyll be a liability with their infighting.

All good though. I actually think Thurii is better ally in this fight than the Messapii, so Metapontion seeing us taking on Taras by our lonesome and asking them to let Thurii through might be a great.

Ill have no harsh feelings if Steel Ram wins.
You could always switch back :V

The other plan does not try and provide passage to the Thurii so they can help us.
Got it, thanks -- missed the extra glory.

Assuming Lasting as the default, the way we want to evaluate Ram is to weigh the extra risk in casualties against the glory that we'd accrue, and come to a decision as to whether that extra glory is worth the additional risk to our soldiers, yeah?

---

Long-term, my understanding was that we wanted to bring Taras in as a member of the League, eventually. Is that the goal, or is the goal to isolate and conquer the polis?
Umm, the Steel Ram gives them a straight fight and is more 'fair' in the eyes of everyone. The Snake seeks to straight up embarrass them into giving up.

Pretty sure humiliating someone will not make them friends :V
 
Thinking it over.

I would rather attempt to have Thurii at our backs and sure that Metapontion is at least neutral than negotiate with Dauni. Perhaps engaging Taras by ourselves without Barbaroi aid will be a boon to us and show we desire greek help than bribing the Dauni or marching with the Messapii.

I just don't trust the Confederacy to have our backs when they've been losing so far and crippled by disunity.

Switching.
 
Actually both plans involve a blockade. The difference is that one of them has us wreck Taras' navy and docks first.

That's true.

But there is a difference between a blockade meant to humiliate a city, kill its sailors, disrupt shipments, and utterly wreck their trade- which you can do basically by having alternating squadrons roving around the sea-lanes outside their harbour, and a blocakde that can actually cut them off. Triremes can only stay at sea for about three days at a time, at a real stretch. And Gods help you if there's a storm, or even just bad seas.

For one thing, sailors and fishermen who know the area and the local shoals will just bring supplies in at night. It gets very difficult to starve a city out with sea access, in this era. Not completely impossible, but immensely challenging.

There are reasons why full blockade only starts to become a regular or successful naval tactic in the 18th century, with ships with vastly greater endurance and sea-keeping than the kind we're using. Even then, you had to be the Royal Navy to pull it off.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on May 26, 2019 at 6:02 PM, finished with 1321 posts and 55 votes.

  • [X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    --[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    [X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    [X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    -[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Carry A Big Stick (With A Snake Wrapped Round It)
    [X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    [X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
    [X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Greater Iron Storm
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] Plan: Iron and Fire
    [X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
 
Got it, thanks -- missed the extra glory.

Assuming Lasting as the default, the way we want to evaluate Ram is to weigh the extra risk in casualties against the glory that we'd accrue, and come to a decision as to whether that extra glory is worth the additional risk to our soldiers, yeah?
As far as I understood what @Cetashwayo wrote, then it is just as much about that the glory is a two edged sword, in that sense that we will look like a even bigger threat to the rest of the world leading to coalitions against us.
To this Epiktetos has countered that there is also great danger in Xanthos' and Theron's strategy. If Eretria were to lose the battle it would of course be a catastrophe, but if it decisively wins, it will cause an instant reaction in both Hellas and Italia, with fear emerging that Eretria will become hegemon of the entire region, encouraging coalitions against the city and its allies.
 
Umm, the Steel Ram gives them a straight fight and is more 'fair' in the eyes of everyone. The Snake seeks to straight up embarrass them into giving up.

Pretty sure humiliating someone will not make them friends :V

I do think that depends on the terms we offer them. If we give the Tarantines extremely generous terms at a moment of strength, I think we can win their trust through our generosity; conversely, if we try to extract everything we can out of them, we'll definitely cement them as an enemy.

That's true.

But there is a difference between a blockade meant to humiliate a city, kill its sailors, disrupt shipments, and utterly wreck their trade- which you can do basically by having alternating squadrons roving around the sea-lanes outside their harbour, and a blocakde that can actually cut them off. Triremes can only stay at sea for about three days at a time, at a real stretch. And Gods help you if there's a storm, or even just bad seas.

For one thing, sailors and fishermen who know the area and the local shoals will just bring supplies in at night. It gets very difficult to starve a city out with sea access, in this era. Not completely impossible, but immensely challenging.

There are reasons why full blockade only starts to become a regular or successful naval tactic in the 18th century, with ships with vastly greater endurance and sea-keeping than the kind we're using. Even then, you had to be the Royal Navy to pull it off.

We will destroy their ability to project naval power, which in itself is valuable.
 
@Cetashwayo If steel ram wins, does the disquiet in the league and Eretria itself carry over as negative modifiers? Like less bonuses to morale?

I hope it isn't doesn't because having negative consequences for a split vote is just bad game mechanics because it encourages bandwagon via making it mechanically optimal to have as many people as possible vote for the winning vote.
 
So including Manus' vote, I think that makes us tied again. :lol

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with either vote. I got a little bit annoyed before with some of what I felt were some persistent misunderstandings being perpetuated in support of Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory, and apologies to everyone if I got slightly snippy about that. But it's a solid plan, and personally I feel both plans represent pretty much the best possible versions of their respective strategies.

So either way, I'm really happy with the vigorous discussion here, which there should be for an important decision like this, and I'm really looking forward to the update!

We will destroy their ability to project naval power, which in itself is valuable.

Oh, absolutely! And they will really feel the loss of trade too, and certainly the cost of delivered grain will go up by quite a bit, if it has to be run through our blockade. There's a lot to be achieved through naval power, it's really useful and important.

On top of that, sailing straight into their harbour is an incredible act of confidence and humiliation. We are basically demonstrating our utter naval superiority and our contempt for their abilities at sea. It would probably make a great set-piece to read about.

We just shouldn't expect starving them out to be an easy or quick process. It's a nightmare, on several different levels.
 
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