"The Eretrian delegation's suggestion to include the sport of weasel-tossing was resoundingly rejected by the other cities, for the fifth Games running."
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
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- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
"The Eretrian delegation's suggestion to include the sport of weasel-tossing was resoundingly rejected by the other cities, for the fifth Games running."
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Good point. It is probably more accurate to describe this as doctrine for how we prosecute the war, yeah?
We're assuming more risk with Storm of Iron. Do we reap more rewards when we assume that risk? I don't see it, but it's also possible I'm missing something.
@Cetashwayo
At least for me, the reason I haven't voted yet was because company unexpectedly arrived this weekend. My initial thoughts were laid out, but I'm happy with the plans people have since proposed; I feel they're only slight modifications for what I was going for. Given the complexities of this vote in particular, we needed voting by plan.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
"Eritria, I have spoken at length on my opinions previously. While my proposal did not sadly catch on, it clearly has a cousin within the one for whom I cast my ballot.
"True virtue can be found in moderation. A lack of courage is cowardice, but an excess of it is recklessness. Just as a lack of glory is ignobility, an excess of it pure hubris. The gods punish both excess and lack of virtue in equal measure. I see our current course as being too much. We are betting everything on elan and our skill at arms, but the fates and the gods are fickle. A larger bet — one not even in our area of specialty! — is vastly more likely to earn Tyche's ire and the costs will be sufficient that we could be broken in the aftermath.
"I would remind each and every man here that our impetuousness has damaged the cause of fair Eritria already. Do not compound a mistake with interest and further glory seeking. War with the Tarrantines was inevitable; Hegemonia requires that we pit the will of our polis against the will of theirs. But it was not necessary under these conditions. If we had been more cautious, we could have split the Danui this year, securing several of their cities to our side without even a fight. From there, we could have resolved the disputes within our Leauge and then turned the Messapii into a true force under our stern protection. Metaponton could have been appeased. Within four years, our position against the Tarrantines would have been unassailable and our hegemonia assured.
"That was not the road the polis took and it is useless to relitigate the past. What we must remember is that bold action has cost us. Do we not remember our first brave, but foolish, Strategos who was lured onto barbaroi spears because of glory's Siren's call? Many of us died then who did not need to. I ask that the people, my fellows, do not forget those lessons. Hubris is a sin most hated by the gods and punished most severely.
"I say that we take a measured response and that we play to our strengths. If we continue to compound brave-hearted gamble after glorious gamble, Tyche will eventually come to claim her due and Ares will feast on the slaughter of our fellows."
So says Leander.
At least for me, the reason I haven't voted yet was because company unexpectedly arrived this weekend. My initial thoughts were laid out, but I'm happy with the plans people have since proposed; I feel they're only slight modifications for what I was going for. Given the complexities of this vote in particular, we needed voting by plan.
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
"Eritria, I have spoken at length on my opinions previously. While my proposal did not sadly catch on, it clearly has a cousin within the one for whom I cast my ballot.
"True virtue can be found in moderation. A lack of courage is cowardice, but an excess of it is recklessness. Just as a lack of glory is ignobility, an excess of it pure hubris. The gods punish both excess and lack of virtue in equal measure. I see our current course as being too much. We are betting everything on elan and our skill at arms, but the fates and the gods are fickle. A larger bet — one not even in our area of specialty! — is vastly more likely to earn Tyche's ire and the costs will be sufficient that we could be broken in the aftermath.
"I would remind each and every man here that our impetuousness has damaged the cause of fair Eritria already. Do not compound a mistake with interest and further glory seeking. War with the Tarrantines was inevitable; Hegemonia requires that we pit the will of our polis against the will of theirs. But it was not necessary under these conditions. If we had been more cautious, we could have split the Danui this year, securing several of their cities to our side without even a fight. From there, we could have resolved the disputes within our Leauge and then turned the Messapii into a true force under our stern protection. Metaponton could have been appeased. Within four years, our position against the Tarrantines would have been unassailable and our hegemonia assured.
"That was not the road the polis took and it is useless to relitigate the past. What we must remember is that bold action has cost us. Do we not remember our first brave, but foolish, Strategos who was lured onto barbaroi spears because of glory's Siren's call? Many of us died then who did not need to. I ask that the people, my fellows, do not forget those lessons. Hubris is a sin most hated by the gods and punished most severely.
"I say that we take a measured response and that we play to our strengths. If we continue to compound brave-hearted gamble after glorious gamble, Tyche will eventually come to claim her due and Ares will feast on the slaughter of our fellows."
So says Leander.
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A victory in a decisive field battle accrues us much more kleos and respect from other Greek cities than a campaign of skirmishing, yes. It will make us appear the clearly superior party. Since a large part of the motivation for this struggle is regional hegemony, that seems obviously beneficial.
One thing to also remember with Serpent's Vice is that, as noted in the update, we're using our skirmishers and cavalry to basically render theirs combat-ineffective through sheer casualties. This kind of approach is not going to lead to a small number of casualties on our side, even with our superiority, there are likely to be quite a few. The advantage is that probably more of them will be Mesapii, and not our hoplites.
Another thing I would like to note here is that I'm seeing a lot of "survival" or "risk destruction" in people's posts on the last couple of pages. That's a bit alarmist here. This is a border war between two Greek cities for local supremacy, which began almost by accident when we backed the Mesapii and were then surprised when this played into the hands of the Tarantine pro-war faction. This kind of thing is utterly typical for the period. It is not an existential struggle for anyone, fiery rhetoric aside.
That doesn't mean there are not any number of perfectly valid reasons to go with The Serpent's Vice; it's a valid and interesting strategy, which also plays to our strengths. If it appeals to you then that's fantastic. In terms of how to approach that strategy, I'm pretty happy with Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory. It is a solid plan, and indeed I was split between than approach or a more direct one initially.
But let's discuss the actual disadvantages and advantages of our strategies, and what we find engaging about them, rather than imagined ones.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Ha, now it looks to me that Steel Ram is only two votes ahead!
Switching my vote.
[] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
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DIVISION IN THE EKKLESIA
MANY STONES LIFTED
MANY SHOULDERS MADE SORE
MANY STONES LIFTED
MANY SHOULDERS MADE SORE
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- Hell
@Night_stalker join me in Steel Ram.
It is the same as my old plan but with a different strategoi that still has the same strategic plan!
It is the same as my old plan but with a different strategoi that still has the same strategic plan!
"And you wish to court Metapontion while turning the fields of Taras to ash. Do not test their intelligence or patience, friend. They will not allow us to cripple her so."
@Cetashwayo If steel ram wins, does the disquiet in the league and Eretria itself carry over as negative modifiers? Like less bonuses to morale?
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Greatest Glory is Lasting Victory.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
The "destruction" is less a matter of Tarentine intent and more a matter of what will happen if we lose or draw during a premature pitched battle against an enemy with superior numbers and greater experience, given that the greater part of our manpower will lie dead on the field.
Furthermore, if we want to prove ourselves as proper Greek warriors, we can look to the eventual war against Syracuse for that; given their population, they can likely put enough troops into the field that they actually can smash our dispersed chevauchees and will thus require at least one field battle to weaken them.
Also, I would prefer the major powers of the Greek world to not see us as a potential threat to their own interests until such time as they can no longer defeat us without ruining themselves. Right now we fall nicely into the peak of "seen as too weak to be a true threat but too strong to be casually coerced or conquered," and I'd rather we spend as little time as possible in the valley of "seen as a major future enemy who is still just weak enough to crush before they can truly compete with us" before reaching the peak of "a true peer to the great poleis of the Hellenic world".
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Any plan that gives the league everything they want will make them fight like hell to prove their worth on the battlefield and show the ability of the League to help Eretria.
The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory is the leading Serpents Vice plan.
If it would be impossible to secure their neutrality whilst meeting the Tarantines in the field, I don't think the option for courting them would explicitly mention that it would allow the Thurii hoplites, who we do not need for a mobile war of skirmishing heavily leveraging our barbaroi allies, to pass through their lands so they could aid us in a field battle:
Diplomacy with Metapontion is explicitly posed in terms of aiding us with The Storm of Iron strategy. It is certainly an interesting interpretation to think that strategy makes diplomacy with Metapontion impossible. Remember, we aren't actually going to destroy Taras or even necessarily cripple them for a generation here. We're taking them down a peg.
This is what I mean about imaginary advantages and disadvantages rather than actual ones.
It is possible that a more agressive and decisive strategy may make Memnon's job a little harder, but given the timing here they may not even know which strategy we are pursuing at the time negotiations finish.
I'm speaking in character. And I'm not saying diplomacy is impossible, just that they might raise the price for neutrality.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
Metapontion allowing our hoplites through before the battle in no way means they'll continue to be receptive to our entreaties after we leave the bulk of Taras' military-age population dead on the battlefield.
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
-[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
-[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
-[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
-[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
No, it isn't. The highest estimate for casualties we would reasonably expect to take in a devastating loss would be around 20%, most of that taken in the rout, unless the circumstances are truly exceptional. This is from @Cetashwayo's informational post on how battles work, and warfare between Greek cities. That isn't the greater part of our manpower. Given we aren't sending all our men to war, it will work out to somewhere between twelve to fifteen percent. That's still bad enough, and a loss that would take a long time to recover from, as it would for Taras if they lost. No one should ignore that.
But this is what I mean when I say we are letting fancy run away with us a little bit.
Moreover, on a point of order, with Thurii we won't have inferior numbers against Taras; we will probably outnumber them by a reasonable margin as we already do in skirmishers and cavalry. Of course, that's contingent on Thurii making it to the battle, which depends on diplomacy with Metapontion, which is a reasonable objection to the Storm of Iron strategy.. It's very tempting in quests to take the course of saying that any option but your preferred one must lead to disaster, and in previous years I've been guilty of it myself. But let's all try to avoid it.
Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory has a lot of good points, and so does Plan Steel Ram, and neither is courting destruction. Our seasoned generals are not actually morons, you know?
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That is rather disingenuous. Those would also happen if your plan won as well.
It is better than doing nothing and letting them aid Taras in battle. We are not even asking them to join us but to let our allies pass through, leaving them unscathed.
Except they would see that anyway if we siege Taras. War is a matter of momentum. Before we even reach the pitched battle, we have two phases before than to increase our advantage, and our Strategoi is very capable in doing just that.
You seem to misunderstand what would happen in battle leading to victory. There is a crash and it is the losing side the loses the multitude.
In your fear of defeat, you block the chance of clear victory.
The Serpent plan will have little chance of defeating Taras, and merely delays the inevitable comflict with them angrier and better prepared.
We comitted to this fight last vote, we cannot afford to look weak and barbaric.
Actually false. It was cautious plan that started with the majority before Steel Ram surpassed them.I'd like to point out, that I very much like that firstly the majority went with "Charge!!! Big Battle!!!" And then is slowly turning to the more cautious and strategically complex plan. It really tells you much about both plans and the voters behind them
Alternatively it could lead to them joining our Epulian league. We have just made changes that meant we listen to them and that they have a greater chance of vetoing us. We can show that it is to their benefit to join the league and that it is not the bending of the knee.