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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Those terms are ridiculously generous to Taras given the current situation they're in. The upside of accepting peace now would be that it leaves us in quite a good strategic position moving forward. It just requires the short term sacrifice of not getting everything we want right now.

But it is an incremental win, and maybe that's enough?

Still... 20 years is a long time.

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Also, Metapontion are crafty little buggers. They've done nothing at all in this war but they're about to use it to force Taras to commit to not going to war with them for 20 years.
 
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Also, what else do we want that we might reasonably get? With the actual conquest of Taras itself not viable due to our inability to maintain the siege through the harvest and winter, I don't see what we might hypothetically be hoping for beyond more loot.
 
We got what we wanted, we got dominion over ALL the Messapii. The city of Aoxenta would have been a precarious toehold, unpopulated as it was. It would have been nice to hold, but that it fell so easily only shows its precariousness. The Gods have smiled upon us, but their blessing has been begrudging, considering the actions of the Messapii. Let us take this peace, that it may be sacred, and that Metapontion at least, shall side with us should Taras break the sacred peace, for Eretrians are not one to break a sacred peace sworn before the Gods.

We have our victory, let us go home, take in the harvest, and prepare to dismember the Dauni.

[X] Accept the peace.
 
HastyGaming said:
Those terms are ridiculously generous to Taras given the current situation they're in. The upside of accepting peace now would be that it leaves us in quite a good strategic position moving forward. It just requires the short term sacrifice of not getting everything we want right now.

But it is an incremental win, and maybe that's enough?

Still... 20 years is a long time.
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I, Ajax son of Lalage, am more than willing to wait.

It is the finest of hunters who knows how to stalk, and ambush their prey, to be patient and wait for the perfect moment, to strike and kill when most appropriate.

I look to the Adriatic Sea, and the Iapygians and Syracuse, and I say!

'Let Magna Greacia wait, in Twenty Years we will return, each Citizen of Eretria an Emperor!'

So let us make Peace, let us take the Messappi into our family, as the youngest to be nurtured, let us look North and take the Dauni, who beg for our suzerainty, also into our clan, let us then look to quell the Illyrians who make such a trouble in our waters, and bring the Adriatic Hellenes to our bosom also!

We are Eretria, mighty, and not in need of the lands of Taras, not yet. We will take them in twenty years if we so wish it then. Let the Italiotes have their peace, we will have our victory, and our Empire!

[X] Accept the peace.
 
The Sandman said:
Also, what else do we want that we might reasonably get? With the actual conquest of Taras itself not viable due to our inability to maintain the siege through the harvest and winter, I don't see what we might hypothetically be hoping for beyond more loot.
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Personally, I had hoped that we might force Hydrus and Kaliopolis to join our league. Then there is also avoiding giving them any Messapi land, though I am fine with the peace offer.
 
Well that was quite the success and I think it will help to further cement the league and any lingering resentment about it by our city that it were the league troops that were central to winning the last battle. And in some ways in view of us having won the field those peace terms are somewhat lacklustre with me finding especially the acknowledgement of us provoking the war and the return of Aoxenta problematic. Yet at the same time we took also considerable losses and a long siege is unlikely to play to our strengths and probably won't be successful anyhow and while I doubt that the other italian greeks will muster a big intervention force they could try and break our blockade and/or hurt or trade and diplomatic standing. And if they intervene we would be fucked because we certainly don't have the forces to resist both them and the Tarantines.

And it isn't like a forgiving peace doesn't have benefits either, avoiding a forcing a humiliating defeat on the Tarantines might temper their anger towards us somewhat and allow for more amicable diplomatic relations in the future. And while I wouldn't bet my life on the peace necessarily holding forever it would certainly ease my worries when it comes to a potential conflict with the Dauni, Brutii, pirates or Syracouse in the near future. Plus a comaprable strong Taras might be useful in keeping the Messapii in line since they will hopefully continue to look upon us as the guarantor of their "freedom".

[X] Accept the peace.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Well, do remember this is de jure dominion over all the Messapii. The Messapii might not be happy with actual de facto subjugation, and if you do take the peace there will be consequences in this direction, though they aren't dire consequences.
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Shall we consult the King of the Iapygeans and at least see his disposition towards this peace? The Mesapii cities were quick enough to consider breaking away from their confederation for fear of the Tarentines. With this, they get the same, but also all their kin along with them. No slaughter, no tears, and we are a light handed master and generous besides.
 
The Sandman said:
Also, what else do we want that we might reasonably get? With the actual conquest of Taras itself not viable due to our inability to maintain the siege through the harvest and winter, I don't see what we might hypothetically be hoping for beyond more loot.
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Off the top of my head we could force Taras to end it's overlordship of Herakleia Lukania to remove pressure from our ally Thurii and potential ally Metapontion. We could maybe even force them to give up Kaliopolis and Hydrus to cripple them in the south of the peninsula. We could get a more generous indemnity, perhaps even a yearly payment for a period of however many years. No admission of fault on our part. etc etc.

There are lots of things we could get from a more favourable peace agreement, it's just a question of whether they're worth the effort. I'm not sure.
 
McLuvin said:
It's not the best Peace, but it is one that will allow us to turn North, five of the settlements of the Dauni will not oppose us, and two of those will actively aid us. Let us turn north and become the true masters of the Iapygians.
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There is a difference between not attacking us and happily accepting our overlordship and doing nothing if we attack them....
 
Erandil said:
There is a difference between not attacking us and happily accepting our overlordship and doing nothing if we attack them....
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Except two of the cities openly wanted to rebel and defect over to Eretria, and three cities were willing to go into non aggression with a few bribes.

There's a good chunk of support for Eretrian Rule, and even though the majority are still probably against us, we know that some of them don't have their real heart in it.

The Dauni are divided and weak. And we can use the invitation from Salapia and Herdonia, the cities who want to break away, as an excuse to overrun them. The King is not popular internally also, known as a backstabber and notably ruthless.
 
@Cetashwayo, is there time to consult with our allies? Even if Eretria ultimately decides, bringing the League into the decision-making process and taking their advice will cement the friendships we've made.
 
Cetashwayo said:
The terms were as follows:
  • That Eretria will accept fault for provoking the war, but Taras will accept fault for starting it
  • That Taras, the defeated party, will concede defeat and give an indemnity of 120 talents to Eretria (of which 30 talents will go to Barbaroi allies and 10 talents to the Thuriians)
  • That Eretria will return the talents it took from the cities of Hydrus and Kalliopolis, acknowleding the fault lies with Taras (20 talents returned)
  • That Eretria will be entrusted with dominion over the Messapii, in exchange for allowing a small land connection between Taras and its dependencies along the coast
  • That Aoxenta will not be resettled again by Messapii, and will be acknowledged to be within the Tarentine sphere of influence
  • That the Messapii will not be allowed to make war or peace without the permission of Eretria
  • That a treaty of peace will be signed between Taras, Eretria, and Metapontion, preventing any party from attacking the others for twenty years
  • That the two cities shall exchange their prisoners and war dead, returning any stolen armor or personal articles taken from their opponent
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Ridiculous. We should never abide by such obscene terms.

This slanders us as betrayers that Taras was right to attack, and yields a paltry 80 talents to Eretria. 60, when you consider that Eretria is to wrest the rightful spoils of war from the hands of her loyal rowers and kin, thrusting them to the grubby grasp of Hydrus and Kalliopolis. These cities are to be compensated, because the 'fault' lies with Taras- and yet, the men of Taras are to be provided free reign over the smoldering ruins of our ally Aoxenta (what fault bore they in this fight?), to seize the coast that they abandoned to cower in their homes!

I would not have let Taras buy these lands in peace for 60 talents, and these honorless cretins propose to have us sell our allies to the fools who have made war on us? Who ever heard of a power that, having lost a war, has its lands increased? Taras can well afford this minor sum, such a 'peace' would only serve to strengthen it while casting the Messapii ever further into disarray.

Let Metapontion attack, should they dare. It is better that we die than accept such treacherous terms and prove the Tarentine slander as truth.

[x] Refuse the peace and continue the siege.
 
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We also need to consider the biggest downside in accepting this peace. That being that while Taras has been humiliated it hasn't been weakened in any real way. They lost about 1000 men and suffered some damage to their city, neither of those are crippling losses.

All this peace would do is delay the conflict by 20 years. Maybe when that time comes we're considerably stronger and we can just walk over Taras. But maybe they've taken the 20 years where we can't attack them and become a force we can't even consider fighting, maybe Sparta won't be tied up with Athens at the time and can take a more active role in aiding the colony founded by their people so long ago...

So that's worth considering as well.
 
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One possible consequence of peace is that we put some effort into thinking up siege engines that might let us win those battles in the future without the problem of most of our troops only being available for half the year.

Maybe made more likely by our current construction project on the new hill/temples and our presumed next one being the sewers, both of which will require some degree of indigenous engineering know-how to get right.
 
Kipeci said:
Ridiculous. We should never abide by such obscene terms.

This slanders us as betrayers that Taras was right to attack, and yields a paltry 80 talents to Eretria. 60, when you consider that Eretria is to wrest the rightful spoils of war from the hands of her loyal rowers and kin, thrusting them to the grubby grasp of Hydrus and Kalliopolis. These cities are to be compensated, because the 'fault' lies with Taras- and yet, the men of Taras are to be provided free reign over the smoldering ruins of our ally Aoxenta (what fault bore they in this fight?), to seize the coast that they abandoned to cower in their homes!

I would not have let Taras buy these lands in peace for 60 talents, and these honorless cretins propose to have us sell our allies to the fools who have made war on us? Who ever heard of a power that, having lost a war, has its lands increased? Taras can well afford this minor sum, such a 'peace' would only serve to strengthen it while casting the Messapii ever further into disarray.

Let Metapontion attack, should they dare. It is better that we die than accept such treacherous terms and prove the Tarentine slander as truth.
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Say we do proceed with war. How do we motivate our army to stay in the field, with the harvest rotting and an election coming up?

I don't think there's any promise of plunder that can keep them in the field for another year.
 
That peace gives what i wanted to achieve wity the war. And the clause about 20 year peace can be presented as us wanting a lasting peace with Hellenic cities in Magna Graecia. If we spin this correctly we can make ourselves a generous lords that wish for peace.

[X] Accept the peace.
 
Erastos son of Nikodemos speaks among a group of comrades outside the walls of Taras.

Countryman, I will not mix words here.

I do not think highly of this 'sacred peace' that our cousins have crafted for us. Truly, the wisdom of the Gods is absent among them, replaced only by the craven cunning of beasts. There cannot be said to be a man of honor in Metapontion, not one a father of Etretria or Epulia would give his daughter to.

To accept blame for a war we did not seek, to deny our Thuriian brothers their rightful spoils, to give the cowards of Metapontion their ill-gotten safety... These matters are as foul as the wind forced from clenched bowels!

This is certainly not a peace of our choosing, no. But it will be the peace that we must take, for all that we could have extracted far better terms from those Tarentine dogs who think themselves centaurs!

The course of this war has stagnated outside corpulent Taras's war, that much is true. Many among our citizenry wish to return home, for the iron in their spines has rusted and given way to paltry copper, for fear of poor fortunes in their absence. I err in saying so, for the bravery of the Etretrian man cannot be disputed, but my bitterness is such.

So I will take this bitter cup the Italiotes call peace, and I shall drink from it in the hopes to one day to piss it down upon them.

20 years of peace they say? Fine, let them have it! The young lions of Eretria who marched in this war will be hale and hearty still when those 20 years are passed, and bedecked in fine panoply they will make slovenly Taras rue their greed!

But that day is yet afar, so let us return home to fair Eretria, and see to other affairs and matters.

[X] Accept the peace.
 
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Secretariat said:
Say we do proceed with war. How do we motivate our army to stay in the field, with the harvest rotting and an election coming up?

I don't think there's any promise of plunder that can keep them in the field for another year.
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It is true that men cannot eat honor alone, but Eretria is not an impoverished city. This seems as fine a purpose as any to use some small fraction of the many hundreds of talents at our disposal. There is no use in assuming overlordship of the Messapii while simultaneous demonstrating that we will readily dissect them in even times of victory; what future can they expect if even in defeat Taras may gain at their expense and buy us off with a pittance?
 
I wish we could offer some sort of counter-proposal, try and secure more obvious gains, but I get the impression this is basically an ultimatum from Metapontion with the tacit support of the rest of Italia.
 
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