Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

[Sirrocco]

So, to answer your question regarding the VAA, the exact state of whether you need to care about it or not depends on what your hot button issues are for it. That being said Brainiac's attack has opened up some additional discussions that will be coming after the VAA passes that will likely be of great interest to you.

Have I sufficiently clarified things or do I need to further elaborate?

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You have clarified sufficiently. Thank you.

Given that, it looks like for the next few turns, if we don't care about little details like salaries and tax rules (which, to my mind, we don't) we can just let the VAA coast to completion while other people fight it out. I support this. Once the VAA has landed, we're likely to see other kinds of superhero legislation, and we may or may not want to stick our oar in on some of them. So if we want to make any other serious changes, we're pretty much coming up on the time to do that... but that doesn't need to be this next turn.

I'm thinking that this is the part where we start trying to pull together the idea of a Justice League. We've already tossed a bit of bread on the waters on that one in the earlier meeting, and we'll want to keep an eye out on where that idea is heading. I think a lot is going to depend on how much of a debacle the fight with Brainiac's flagship winds up being. On the other hand, I think that the idea of a hero-led Justice League is going to be pretty dead in the water, or at least very killable.

As far as doing anything about it this next coming turn...? My current gut reaction is that there are going to be a lot of things that are suddenly high priorities in the aftermath of Brainiac. I think that pushing the Justice League is one of those "the sooner the better" things... and I also think that it's not quite immediate-priority enough to make it actually worth spending the action/hero resources necessary to make it happen.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Theoretically yes. However, it is also possible that if you were to get Enoch Brown as a hero unit at a certain point in time, then Emmylou Brown would be less useful than her appearance in the BTAS episode would lead you to believe due to her not having built up a set way (Enoch has to be placed in such a situation where he's willing to give his daughter the same steroids he used to make mutant cows in order to grant her superstrength).

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Hell, we have Venom; we don't need Emmy Lou Brown juiced up on veterinary steroids.

If we need someone with hilarious muscle-behemoth strength, we can just find a volunteer bodybuilder willing to juice on the stuff we already had instead of snagging a random young lady whose dad happens to be in the field.

 

[Sirrocco]

Hell, we have Venom; we don't need Emmy Lou Brown juiced up on veterinary steroids.

If we need someone with hilarious muscle-behemoth strength, we can just find a volunteer bodybuilder willing to juice on the stuff we already had instead of snagging a random young lady whose dad happens to be in the field.

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...and at this point, Bone Growth Serum is pretty much strictly better.

Admittedly, if we decide at some point we want to develop "Venom, but not terrible", then Farmer Brown might be helpful for that.

 

[Simon_Jester]

...and at this point, Bone Growth Serum is pretty much strictly better.

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I'm not sure. Venom at least lets you choose to continue looking human. As I recall, we haven't solved that problem for the bone growth formula. And bone growth formula doesn't really give you super-strength, just a degree of super-durability as long as you don't lose any vital organs or anything.

Admittedly, if we decide at some point we want to develop "Venom, but not terrible", then Farmer Brown might be helpful for that.

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Very true, it's probably well within his area of specialization.

 

[Sirrocco]

I'm not sure. Venom at least lets you choose to continue looking human. As I recall, we haven't solved that problem for the bone growth formula. And bone growth formula doesn't really give you super-strength, just a degree of super-durability as long as you don't lose any vital organs or anything.

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I'm pretty sure that Bone Growth as it is now gives you a decent spot of additional strength, too.

Now, I have that shiny, shiny image in my head where we get maybe one more QoL advance on Bone Growth, and then develop Gingko Fruit all the way out, and combine the two to make even our mooks into mid-rank supers, and I'm quite certain that if we can manage "Venom - the non-terrible edition" then that would be an excellent add-on to include on top of it. That might be a bit, though.

 

[KnightofTempest]

I'm pretty sure that Bone Growth as it is now gives you a decent spot of additional strength, too.

Now, I have that shiny, shiny image in my head where we get maybe one more QoL advance on Bone Growth, and then develop Gingko Fruit all the way out, and combine the two to make even our mooks into mid-rank supers, and I'm quite certain that if we can manage "Venom - the non-terrible edition" then that would be an excellent add-on to include on top of it. That might be a bit, though.

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Didn't we use venom to enhance bone growth at some point?

If not, we should. The blockbuster formula being a thing shows that venom is an addative compund.

@King crimson Was Rex Tyler a thing in this game's continuity? Hourman and Miraclo should be a matter of Public Record if so, given the JSA's service in WW2. . .

 

[Simon_Jester]

That they exist might be a matter of public record, but many of the JSA's records are sealed.

The formula is almost certainly not a matter of public record, among other things because giving any idiot with a meth lab the ability to make "hour of power" drugs is a bad idea.

 

[King crimson]

So some bad news. I want a little more time to get the update the way I want it so I'm delaying posting it from today to tomorrow. There was just some stuff I wasn't happy with and want to refine.

@King crimson Was Rex Tyler a thing in this game's continuity? Hourman and Miraclo should be a matter of Public Record if so, given the JSA's service in WW2. . .

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So Rex Tyler is a thing in this game's continuity and Lex Luthor already vaguely knows of him due to file recovered. I believe you've had the following information since turn 9 or so

The line up of the Justice Society consisted of Blackwing AKA Janos Prohaska the leader of the Blackhawk squadron, an unenhanced human being and the groups liaison with the military, The Atom AKA Al Pratt, a boxer with enhanced strength and an immunity to radiation poisoning, Hourman AKA Rex Tyler, a man who managed to develop a miracle drug that gave him superhuman capabilities for one hour that the US has not managed to replicate yet, Theodore Knight AKA Starman, a man who could defy gravity and invented a "cosmic rod" that could project energy outwards, Ted Grant, a heavyweight boxer apparently cursed with nine lives, Doctor Mid-Nite AKA Charles McNider, a man who could only see in the dark and invented a substance that sucks all the light out of enclosed areas, and Dinah Drake Lance AKA Black Canary an acrobat with a sonic scream. The group came together to deal with things the US army couldn't and was folded into the regular chain of command some what although the unusual nature of their work led to them often making rapid responses in the field unprompted by any official command. They where occasionally joined by a magician named Dr. Fate who has not revealed much about himself at all including his real name.

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The same file on this also states that Rex Tyler retreated into seclusion for a very long time. You've also had the following action

[ ] Investigate Rex Tyler
DC 295

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for a good long time as well as options to look into and speak with some of his teammates.

If you want further information on Rex Tyler, I believe that there are some canon sidestories about the JSA which elaborate on some stuff.

Hourman and Miraclo are not a matter of public record due to the JSA being a covert group and there is a lot more elaboration on that group's history in the post I quoted earlier.

That they exist might be a matter of public record, but many of the JSA's records are sealed.

The formula is almost certainly not a matter of public record, among other things because giving any idiot with a meth lab the ability to make "hour of power" drugs is a bad idea.

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The formula is not a matter of public record. The formula for the drug doesn't even exist in US military records as Rex Tyler didn't trust other people with the formula and his paranoia and distrust of the government only grew worse as time went on.

 

[jonasquinn]

You have clarified sufficiently. Thank you.

Given that, it looks like for the next few turns, if we don't care about little details like salaries and tax rules (which, to my mind, we don't) we can just let the VAA coast to completion while other people fight it out. I support this. Once the VAA has landed, we're likely to see other kinds of superhero legislation, and we may or may not want to stick our oar in on some of them. So if we want to make any other serious changes, we're pretty much coming up on the time to do that... but that doesn't need to be this next turn.

I'm thinking that this is the part where we start trying to pull together the idea of a Justice League. We've already tossed a bit of bread on the waters on that one in the earlier meeting, and we'll want to keep an eye out on where that idea is heading. I think a lot is going to depend on how much of a debacle the fight with Brainiac's flagship winds up being. On the other hand, I think that the idea of a hero-led Justice League is going to be pretty dead in the water, or at least very killable.

As far as doing anything about it this next coming turn...? My current gut reaction is that there are going to be a lot of things that are suddenly high priorities in the aftermath of Brainiac. I think that pushing the Justice League is one of those "the sooner the better" things... and I also think that it's not quite immediate-priority enough to make it actually worth spending the action/hero resources necessary to make it happen.

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I feel like the establishment of an official superhero team is the sort of thing that won't be seriously considered at least until the VAA has been officially passed, hell with Diana in such a high ranking position I wouldn't be surprised if there's a government meeting to determine just that

Hell, we have Venom; we don't need Emmy Lou Brown juiced up on veterinary steroids.

If we need someone with hilarious muscle-behemoth strength, we can just find a volunteer bodybuilder willing to juice on the stuff we already had instead of snagging a random young lady whose dad happens to be in the field.

Click to shrink...

...and at this point, Bone Growth Serum is pretty much strictly better.

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I'm pretty sure that Bone Growth as it is now gives you a decent spot of additional strength, too.

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It's worth keeping in mind that iirc Bone Growth still leaves its users horribly deformed and Venom is addictive and destructive whereas whatever Farmer Brown gave his daughter allowed her to stay a perfectly normal attractive young woman and gave her super strength with seemingly no downsides

Hourman and Miraclo are not a matter of public record due to the JSA being a covert group and there is a lot more elaboration on that group's history in the post I quoted earlier.

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Didn't we also have an opportunity to get Miraclo from buying what remains of Stagg?

 

[King crimson]

Didn't we also have an opportunity to get Miraclo from buying what remains of Stagg?

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I don't remember if I'm being honest, but it is possible that this occurred. I do have an answer for how the formula got to Stagg if that is the case but I don't remember exactly. I know there was a chance for Reneyu (or something like that) AKA the chemical that made Clayface but I don't remember if Miraclo was on offer or not.

 

[Sirrocco]

It's worth keeping in mind that iirc Bone Growth still leaves its users horribly deformed and Venom is addictive and destructive whereas whatever Farmer Brown gave his daughter allowed her to stay a perfectly normal attractive young woman and gave her super strength with seemingly no downsides

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Bone Growth definitely makes you look funny. Not sure I'd call it "horribly deformed", though - aside from things like "accessibility to modern surgical techniques" and "fitting into small compact cars" I don't think it's in any real way disabling anymore.

Given how this game works, I don't think that hiring Farmer Brown is going to automatically give us access to the perfect "super-strength with no drawbacks" drug... but yeah, he'd definitely be helpful for running techdev on those sorts of things.

Oh - and another weird little time-critical thing to remember... if we can manage it, we want Louise and Caitlyn working together on something, so that we can both exploit and erode that relationship while Louise is still with us and hopefully reap the improvement to coop scores between Caitlyn and Pamela.

 

[Negation]

Given how this game works, I don't think that hiring Farmer Brown is going to automatically give us access to the perfect "super-strength with no drawbacks" drug... but yeah, he'd definitely be helpful for running techdev on those sorts of things.

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We're not hiring him for that. We're hiring him to be Vice-head of both our Agriculture & Pharma Dept with his daughter as his Personal Assistant for Co-Op bonus.

 

[Sirrocco]

We're not hiring him for that. We're hiring him to be Vice-head of both our Agriculture & Pharma Dept with his daughter as his Personal Assistant for Co-Op bonus.

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Well, yes. I mean, there are a number of reasons to hire Farmer Brown, if we can get the man... but if we do get him, and we don't have him spending at least some time working on superhuman enhancement technology, then we're doing it wrong.

 

[KnightofTempest]

I still think looking into Rex Tyler is worth it.

Miraclo has none of the downsides of Venom or Bone Growth and can be issued to our security personnel during combat operations with little issue, provided we only give each trooper 1 pill.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Different iterations of Miraclo have different levels of downsides. Some are addictive, for example.

 

[KnightofTempest]

Different iterations of Miraclo have different levels of downsides. Some are addictive, for example.

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The Kind Rex uses to become Hourman isn't addictive.

If anything its only downside is that it eventually causes leukemia in old age after years of nightly use. Don't use it every night to go punching random criminals for 80 years and you don't get leukemia

It's only the inferior grade stuff cobbled together from partial notes that will addict you after a single use like that. You know, like Venom. . .

 

[Simon_Jester]

A fair point.

On the other hand, looking into Rex Tyler is not guaranteed to produce the Miraclo formula, any more than looking into Johnny Quick (or was it his mentor) produced the mathematical formula that gives you superspeed.

I guarantee you that the US government has, at some or more likely several points in the past fifty years, made serious efforts using resources that are impressive even by our standards to figure out how Rex Tyler's formula works, because as a supersoldier drug it's almost perfect. Small quantities, can't be that hard to make if one man can do it over and over with small scale laboratory equipment for years, minimal short term side effects, no complex capital equipment needed to bathe the subject with Vita-Rays or whatever, and I gather the effects are pretty damn impressive.

Sure, you run out of steam and turn back into a metaphorical pumpkin in an hour, but if anything that is less of a drawback for an army, because in an army you have organization, groups of men who can take pills in shifts to cover each other for a period of a few hours, and potentially all sorts of other firepower that you can rush up to support the Miraclo-enhanced supersoldiers who just seized an enemy position or whatever.

If they've repeatedly failed, it's probably because even if you know a lot about Rex Tyler, where he lived or lives, what he does or did, who his family is, and so on... That doesn't give you access to the closely guarded secret chemical formula he probably has every intention of taking with him to his grave.

 

[KnightofTempest]

A fair point.

On the other hand, looking into Rex Tyler is not guaranteed to produce the Miraclo formula, any more than looking into Johnny Quick (or was it his mentor) produced the mathematical formula that gives you superspeed.

I guarantee you that the US government has, at some or more likely several points in the past fifty years, made serious efforts using resources that are impressive even by our standards to figure out how Rex Tyler's formula works, because as a supersoldier drug it's almost perfect. Small quantities, can't be that hard to make if one man can do it over and over with small scale laboratory equipment for years, minimal short term side effects, no complex capital equipment needed to bathe the subject with Vita-Rays or whatever, and I gather the effects are pretty damn impressive.

Sure, you run out of steam and turn back into a metaphorical pumpkin in an hour, but if anything that is less of a drawback for an army, because in an army you have organization, groups of men who can take pills in shifts to cover each other for a period of a few hours, and potentially all sorts of other firepower that you can rush up to support the Miraclo-enhanced supersoldiers who just seized an enemy position or whatever.

If they've repeatedly failed, it's probably because even if you know a lot about Rex Tyler, where he lived or lives, what he does or did, who his family is, and so on... That doesn't give you access to the closely guarded secret chemical formula he probably has every intention of taking with him to his grave.

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Yeah, the government did try to remake Miraclo for a supersoldier program.

They produced Deathstroke.

I'd call that a success.

Honestly, if we can get the Deathstroke Supersoldier formula, I'd be happy with that.

 

[Sirrocco]

I feel like the Miraclo thing is... not where our strengths are?

Miraclo is the sort of thing you go hunting down if you're a heavily intrigue-specced player and you want an advantage you can brew up in a basement... and I mean heavily, as just trying to track Rex down at all to get started on this chain is a DC of 295. The stuff we've been working on - the stuff that we're actually well-positioned for - is the permanent upgrades that take highly capable scientists and tons of lab time.

 

[Negation]

Miraclo is not worth it. Lets stick to our strengths and develop as we hire more Hero Units

 

[KnightofTempest]

Miraclo is not worth it. Lets stick to our strengths and develop as we hire more Hero Units

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Fine, what about the stuff that turned Deathstroke into a Super Soldier?

We already have an in with the US Military. Will you vote for asking about that?

Cause Deathstroke can fight an entire team on his own and win, if we can get even a bit of that power, I'd say it's worth it

 

[King crimson]

Some clarifications I felt would be relevant for the conversation.

The Kind Rex uses to become Hourman isn't addictive.

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In New Earth continuity the kind of Miraclo that Rex Tyler used was addictive.

If anything its only downside is that it eventually causes leukemia in old age after years of nightly use. Don't use it every night to go punching random criminals for 80 years and you don't get leukemia

It's only the inferior grade stuff cobbled together from partial notes that will addict you after a single use like that. You know, like Venom. . .

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In New Earth continuity both Rex and Rick Tyler suffered from drug addiction to Miraclo. Additionally the suped up version of Miraclo that Rex Tyler used to try and keep up with superhumans in New Earth continuity caused such side effects like making him more anxious and talkative and eventually getting so toxic that he needed magic to cure him.

That's not to say that I'll be sticking to the New Earth continuity super tightly, I just thought it fair to point out that it does have side effects in certain continuities even when it's what Rex Tyler himself was using. It's still pretty consistently better than Venom in terms of its benefits and its side effects in its base form.

Yeah, the government did try to remake Miraclo for a supersoldier program.

They produced Deathstroke.

I'd call that a success.

Honestly, if we can get the Deathstroke Supersoldier formula, I'd be happy with that.

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So uh, here's some relevant info on Deathstroke that you obtained in the same update as the basic JSA information.

Slade returned home to spend time with his family after he lost an eye in Vietnam before volunteering for a medical experiment that was intended to stimulate a soldier's adrenal gland to make them more resistant to truth serums after the birth of his second son as he felt unfulfilled without any fighting. The experiment did not go as planned and Slade fell into a coma for several years. Eventually when he recovered they realized that he had enhanced physical and mental skills putting him beyond the peak human performance and making him into an unmatched super soldier. Scientists are still unsure why the experiment had this effect on Slade as all attempts to recreate it have failed.

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In quest Deathstroke's supersoldier serum is something that is listed in the files the US government as something that has no link to Miraclo and was basically a freak accident that they then failed to replicate.

That being said you do have a chance to potentially look into the serum and replicate its effects as in the quest's continuity Rose is Slade's biological daughter that he had after taking the super-soldier serum and she displays many of the same qualities as his enhancement.

It's actually less difficult for you to find information about Deathstroke's enhancement than it is about Miraclo because you've potentially already got an affected individual in your employ. You don't even need to ask the US government to start digging into it.

 

[KnightofTempest]

Some clarifications I felt would be relevant for the conversation.

In New Earth continuity the kind of Miraclo that Rex Tyler used was addictive.

In New Earth continuity both Rex and Rick Tyler suffered from drug addiction to Miraclo. Additionally the suped up version of Miraclo that Rex Tyler used to try and keep up with superhumans in New Earth continuity caused such side effects like making him more anxious and talkative and eventually getting so toxic that he needed magic to cure him.

That's not to say that I'll be sticking to the New Earth continuity super tightly, I just thought it fair to point out that it does have side effects in certain continuities even when it's what Rex Tyler himself was using. It's still pretty consistently better than Venom in terms of its benefits and its side effects in its base form.

So uh, here's some relevant info on Deathstroke that you obtained in the same update as the basic JSA information.

In quest Deathstroke's supersoldier serum is something that is listed in the files the US government as something that has no link to Miraclo and was basically a freak accident that they then failed to replicate.

That being said you do have a chance to potentially look into the serum and replicate its effects as in the quest's continuity Rose is Slade's biological daughter that he had after taking the super-soldier serum and she displays many of the same qualities as his enhancement.

It's actually less difficult for you to find information about Deathstroke's enhancement than it is about Miraclo because you've potentially already got an affected individual in your employ. You don't even need to ask the US government to start digging into it.

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I just think it's hilarious that it's easier to find info on the failed experiment that then produced a notorious mercenary/assassin than it is to find info on the hour of power pill used by a public figure that worked for the war department in WW2.

You'd think the US Government would try to cover up the former more.

Just goes to show how paranoid Ol' Rex has gotten in his old age. . .

 

[King crimson]

I just think it's hilarious that it's easier to find info on the failed experiment that then produced a notorious mercenary/assassin than it is to find info on the hour of power pill used by a public figure that worked for the war department in WW2.

You'd think the US Government would try to cover up the former more.

Just goes to show how paranoid Ol' Rex has gotten in his old age. . .

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I mean the big difference is in how widespread knowledge of them was initially. Miraclo was created by one person and only used by one person with no other evidence on how it functions. Deathstroke's enhancement on the other hand had multiple scientists working on it before it went wrong, multiple scientists observing the effects of it on him and multiple scientists attempting to replicate the results as well as two individuals (Deathstroke himself and Rose Wilson) who could be observed/studied for information on the enhancement.

The US government is probably trying a lot harder to cover up the information on Deathstroke's enhancement but the fact of the matter is there's just so many more potential points for leaks in information about Deathstroke's enhancement than there is about Miraclo just kind of makes it inevitable that Deathstroke's enhancement would actually be the easier of the two to learn about

 

[KnightofTempest]

I mean the big difference is in how widespread knowledge of them was initially. Miraclo was created by one person and only used by one person with no other evidence on how it functions. Deathstroke's enhancement on the other hand had multiple scientists working on it before it went wrong, multiple scientists observing the effects of it on him and multiple scientists attempting to replicate the results as well as two individuals (Deathstroke himself and Rose Wilson) who could be observed/studied for information on the enhancement.

The US government is probably trying a lot harder to cover up the information on Deathstroke's enhancement but the fact of the matter is there's just so many more potential points for leaks in information about Deathstroke's enhancement than there is about Miraclo just kind of makes it inevitable that Deathstroke's enhancement would actually be the easier of the two to learn about

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I mean, he did produce it via patent for Bannerman Chemicals in the 30s initially.

You'd think the patent office would have a copy of the formula.