Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

Sirrocco · Mar 25, 2022

jonasquinn said:
I'm definitely up for doing that but I still think it would be a mistake to not take advantage of this opportunity, we already have our own farms that we're not really doing anything with and this is other best opportunity we're going to get to expand on them

Even if we just improve our farms next turn and build more ones the turn after with maybe developing Blue Valley, which is only a DC of 6 so could also be a non-hero unit action

There are always going to be great things that are totally worth doing. Always. Next turn is going to be the turn where we need to go heavy on the reconstruction (so that we can eat the available reconstruction PR and deny it to Superman) and recruit a bunch of dispossessed people (because they're unemployed and desperate so we get easy hires and also better PR), manage the message in various ways (since this is going to be a huge event that everyone cares about but there's a bunch of different ways to take it), try to seize the initiative on whatever comes out of the VAA (because hiring supers is going to be a big deal, and there's going to be a lot of social churn out of that and a lot of opportunities that are very much one-turn-only). Oh, and I'm near-certain that we have some long-term commitment actions that are coming due. And also we need to go take whatever "recruit Raven" actions we were hoping for. And if we don't do something to regain a degree of pharmaceutical dominance, we might lose the sisters, and....

We're already stepping back and (temporarily) not crushing the megacorp opponents we have for their temerity in trying to step to the king because we need to focus on all of the enormously many deeply time-critical things that we have to do for next turn. This really isn't the time to be adding even more things to the stack of competing shiny ideas.

Like, okay. trivial-difficulty farmland purchases probably won't break the bank, but neither will any other single one of the dozens of shiny ideas we could come up with between now and then. "Things to do" isn't what we're short on right now.

jonasquinn · Mar 25, 2022

Sirrocco said:
Next turn is going to be the turn where we need to go heavy on the reconstruction (so that we can eat the available reconstruction PR and deny it to Superman)

Which isn't particularly difficult the initial reconstruction DC tends to be fairly low because any progress is good progress at that point and a team of Nathan and Carol already has a bonus of +31, decreases the DC by 13 and that's not even including the nanites

Sirrocco said:
recruit a bunch of dispossessed people (because they're unemployed and desperate so we get easy hires and also better PR)

In my opinion that can wait a turn, I doubt that the recruit workers action will see that much of a DC drop from the invasion and I don't think we'll get much of a PR boost from swooping in and hiring them

In my opinion the best recruitment action we can take soon is ex-cons because it has a low DC and we can slap the Rogues on it and probably get more members and it can definitely wait a turn

Sirrocco said:
manage the message in various ways (since this is going to be a huge event that everyone cares about but there's a bunch of different ways to take it)

I feel like the best way to do this is to slap the Rogues on the newspaper action and take advantage of the Daily Planet's temporary absence

Sirrocco said:
try to seize the initiative on whatever comes out of the VAA (because hiring supers is going to be a big deal, and there's going to be a lot of social churn out of that and a lot of opportunities that are very much one-turn-only)

I don't personally agree that there's going to be a ton of one turn only actions for this, I can see there being a meeting to attend to discuss but either way that'll almost certainly be a Diplomacy action not a Stewardship one

Sirrocco said:
Oh, and I'm near-certain that we have some long-term commitment actions that are coming due.

The only thing we have to do next turn is put Oswald on creating a show, just slap him and Lana on creating an Ultra-Violet TV show and we're sorted

We can work on building ODIN the turn after next and I doubt anyone will give us shit for delaying it for a bit to focus on rebuilding

Sirrocco said:
And also we need to go take whatever "recruit Raven" actions we were hoping for.

I've argued before for Developing Metropolis, which Lex and Mercy are a good team for, and investigating the Jump City leyline, which is an Intrigue action and we can easily put together a good team for, in order to accomplish this

Sirrocco said:
And if we don't do something to regain a degree of pharmaceutical dominance, we might lose the sisters

Just slap them on building a lab and let them do the research the turn after next

Sirrocco said:
We're already stepping back and (temporarily) not crushing the megacorp opponents we have for their temerity in trying to step to the king because we need to focus on all of the enormously many deeply time-critical things that we have to do for next turn. This really isn't the time to be adding even more things to the stack of competing shiny ideas.

I mean we can still release the auto-kitchens we've had sat around for years to fuck with Wayne and that's not too difficult

Sirrocco said:
Like, okay. trivial-difficulty farmland purchases probably won't break the bank, but neither will any other single one of the dozens of shiny ideas we could come up with between now and then. "Things to do" isn't what we're short on right now.

Except this isn't just a "thing to do" it's "Literally almost all of our potential competitors in this field have just been killed, we're already set up to take advantage, we'll get credit for helping to prevent a national food shortage, we'll gain significant control over the country's food supply and we'll literally never have a better opportunity to do this than right now"

Simon_Jester · Mar 25, 2022

Negation said:
Maybe relevant.

The bit about Christopher Reeve is especially relevant.

Superman is a celebrity, even when he's just Christopher Reeve in a Superman costume.

Clark Kent is an invisible nobody, even when he's the character Clark Kent, among people who know he is (the fictional) Superman.

Sirrocco · Mar 26, 2022

jonasquinn said:
Which isn't particularly difficult the initial reconstruction DC tends to be fairly low because any progress is good progress at that point and a team of Nathan and Carol already has a bonus of +31, decreases the DC by 13 and that's not even including the nanites

No. It's not just the "repair" action. It's the increasing the size of our construction company, it's hiring workers... I think we're going to see at least three construction actions we're going to want to do next turn.

In my opinion that can wait a turn, I doubt that the recruit workers action will see that much of a DC drop from the invasion and I don't think we'll get much of a PR boost from swooping in and hiring them

In my opinion the best recruitment action we can take soon is ex-cons because it has a low DC and we can slap the Rogues on it and probably get more members and it can definitely wait a turn

I could see recruiting both workers *and* ex-cons (they're often useful for somewhat different things) and I think it's going to have a significantly better payoff than buyign up farmland. Farmland is the one thing that mostly *hasn't* been devastated, I'd think. Brainiac woudl have focused on the cities.

I feel like the best way to do this is to slap the Rogues on the newspaper action and take advantage of the Daily Planet's temporary absence

Possibly. I think we want to see what's available, but that's an action.

I don't personally agree that there's going to be a ton of one turn only actions for this, I can see there being a meeting to attend to discuss but either way that'll almost certainly be a Diplomacy action not a Stewardship one

How would it just be a meeting to attend/discuss? I mean, yeah, we want to push the Justice League, but we also suddenly have a legal framework for recruiting supers... which means that we want to snap a bunch of them up before anyone else gets them. I guarantee that every megacorp out there is going to be recruiting. This is one surge that we do *not* want to miss the first turn of.

The only thing we have to do next turn is put Oswald on creating a show, just slap him and Lana on creating an Ultra-Violet TV show and we're sorted

Okay So that's another action, assuming that's the only one.

I've argued before for Developing Metropolis, which Lex and Mercy are a good team for, and investigating the Jump City leyline, which is an Intrigue action and we can easily put together a good team for, in order to accomplish this

I'm not sure what Developing Metropolis has to do with Raven, but sure. Still, more actions spent.

Just slap them on building a lab and let them do the research the turn after next

Great. Another action.

I mean we can still release the auto-kitchens we've had sat around for years to fuck with Wayne and that's not too difficult

That's the least of our issues. People are challenging the LexPhone. We jsut dont' have the available resources to punish them for it properly this turn.

Except this isn't just a "thing to do" it's "Literally almost all of our potential competitors in this field have just been killed, we're already set up to take advantage, we'll get credit for helping to prevent a national food shortage, we'll gain significant control over the country's food supply and we'll literally never have a better opportunity to do this than right now"

- Buying farmland doesn't help prevent a national food shortage. That farmland was going to be there anyway.
- Buying farmland doesn't help us gain significant control over the nation's food supply unless we throw enough heroes at it to do absurdly well.
- Buying farmland is no one's knockout blow. It's not the final move that brings it all together. It's step 2 of a 5-step plan. It might have a few advantages for this turn, but it's not going to be anything like as critically valuable as you seem to have convinced yourself that it is. The alternate suggestion of creating those emergency ration packs are much closer to achieving the kids of results you're talking about here than just buying up some farmland.

jonasquinn · Mar 26, 2022

Sirrocco said:
No. It's not just the "repair" action. It's the increasing the size of our construction company, it's hiring workers... I think we're going to see at least three construction actions we're going to want to do next turn.

I don't think expanding Future Construction is necessary, it's already fairly large and with a good tram on repairing Metropolis it's going to get most of the work done anyway

What we easily can do is put Marie on advertising Future Construction for a guaranteed success and get more contracts for it

Sirrocco said:
I could see recruiting both workers *and* ex-cons (they're often useful for somewhat different things)

I feel like it's important to keep DC's in mind here, recruiting more workers has a DC of 82 and I doubt that's going to decrease significantly from all this, there's no point in taking it if we aren't putting a serious team on it and right now that's more than we can afford

Sirrocco said:
Farmland is the one thing that mostly *hasn't* been devastated, I'd think. Brainiac woudl have focused on the cities.

In the update before last it was specifically mentioned that the damage to the Midwest was significant enough that there were genuine concerns about a food shortage

Sirrocco said:
How would it just be a meeting to attend/discuss? I mean, yeah, we want to push the Justice League, but we also suddenly have a legal framework for recruiting supers... which means that we want to snap a bunch of them up before anyone else gets them. I guarantee that every megacorp out there is going to be recruiting. This is one surge that we do *not* want to miss the first turn of.

Something you may be forgetting is that most superheroes have secret identities and can't just be contacted to discuss contacts

Yes we may want to spend an action or two on recruiting some of the major ones or at least tracking them down but I doubt next turn will be our only chance

Plus what other major competitors do we have in that area? Wayne Enterprises will at most endorse the Bat Family, KordTech will obviously have Blue Beetle and maybe Booster Gold, though admittedly he'd be good to have on our side, and Queen Industries will focus on snapping up Green Arrow and maybe Black Canary

Sirrocco said:
I'm not sure what Developing Metropolis has to do with Raven, but sure. Still, more actions spent.

My bad, I meant Jump City

Sirrocco said:
That's the least of our issues. People are challenging the LexPhone. We jsut dont' have the available resources to punish them for it properly this turn.

They're actually not, the closest thing we have to recent competition to the LexPhone was KordTech releasing a PDA which were extremely niche

Sirrocco said:
- Buying farmland doesn't help prevent a national food shortage. That farmland was going to be there anyway.

A lot of farms have been destroyed in the invasion, intentionally or not, and a lot of the farmers are probably dead

Us owning the farmland allows us to use it better than others would

Sirrocco said:
- Buying farmland doesn't help us gain significant control over the nation's food supply unless we throw enough heroes at it to do absurdly well.

In a time of a national food shortage where we can easily use our rapid growth formula to accelerate the harvest it does

Sirrocco said:
- Buying farmland is no one's knockout blow. It's not the final move that brings it all together. It's step 2 of a 5-step plan.

And what are the rest of the steps? At absolute most once we've got the farmland and started a company we might need to take an action to start using the rapid growth formula, though I'm pretty sure that's already something we're doing isn't it @King crimson?, and look for a ceo for it later down the line

Other than that it's a business that can literally just sit there and earn us money and influence

Sirrocco said:
It might have a few advantages for this turn, but it's not going to be anything like as critically valuable as you seem to have convinced yourself that it is.

It's not just this turn, once again it has straight up been said in a government meeting that a national food shortage is likely, being the ones to prevent that will get us a lot of good PR and give us at the absolute minimum a sizeable presence in one of the most vital industries in America

Sirrocco said:
The alternate suggestion of creating those emergency ration packs are much closer to achieving the kids of results you're talking about here than just buying up some farmland.

That is a good suggestion and we can do both but making ration packs isn't going to make us heroes nor will it give us control over a major industry

I think the area where we're disagreeing here is that you're viewing all this from the perspective of how many actions it will take whereas I am of the opinion that we have more than enough actions and that the limiting factor it hero units which we have enough to accomplish most if not all of what we want

Sirrocco · Mar 26, 2022

jonasquinn said:
I don't think expanding Future Construction is necessary, it's already fairly large and with a good tram on repairing Metropolis it's going to get most of the work done anyway

What we easily can do is put Marie on advertising Future Construction for a guaranteed success and get more contracts for it

If it were just metropolis I'd agree with you, but I want heavy rebuilding in every city that has a Tower in it. That is how we turn this into a massive PR victory on a personal level. We sell the idea that it's not just Metropolis. We sell the idea that every city with a Tower is LexCorp territory and that's a good thing.

jonasquinn said:
I feel like it's important to keep DC's in mind here, recruiting more workers has a DC of 82 and I doubt that's going to decrease significantly from all this, there's no point in taking it if we aren't putting a serious team on it and right now that's more than we can afford

Okay. Fair point. I was conflating "hire workers" and "expand Future Construction". Really, it's the latter that I'm interested in. It's a great place to put basically anyone who wants a job, there's a huge demand for services worldwide, and it really puts some oomph into making LexCorp the face of the reconstruction.

jonasquinn said:
Something you may be forgetting is that most superheroes have secret identities and can't just be contacted to discuss contacts

Yes we may want to spend an action or two on recruiting some of the major ones or at least tracking them down but I doubt next turn will be our only chance

Plus what other major competitors do we have in that area? Wayne Enterprises will at most endorse the Bat Family, KordTech will obviously have Blue Beetle and maybe Booster Gold, though admittedly he'd be good to have on our side, and Queen Industries will focus on snapping up Green Arrow and maybe Black Canary

Part of the point of the VAA is going to change the secret identity dynamic in a big way. The idea isn't that we track them down individually. It's that we have a major initiative to get them to come to us, and then we grab whoever we can get. This has been a major multi-action turn with a bunch of subvotes and a bunch of hero support, both from us and from others. It's going to have a big impact on the way that the world works. As for "at most"... you're suggesting that when we open the floodgates of the ability to hire superheroes that no one else is really going to be interested? When they've had months or more to see it coming and work out a strategy? I don't believe that. Every two-bit corporation in the US led by a CEO with even mild megalomania is going to be trying to get their fingers in this. This is the hiring frenzy.

jonasquinn said:
They're actually not, the closest thing we have to recent competition to the LexPhone was KordTech releasing a PDA which were extremely niche

It's in the space. There are people who are using it who should be using LexPhones instead. Its continued survival as a product implies that other competitors might also be able to take bites of our rightful domain. It still counts.

Such offenses cannot be allowed to stand. Certainly not from the likes of Kord.

Still. Not this turn. Next turn. That's kind of my point, though - from what I can see, this turn is so packed that we have to put off a bunch of stuff that would basically be entirely unacceptable otherwise.

/**************/

On the matter of our difference of opinion... okay. Yeah I can see two points of difference.
- it's the heroes vs actions thing. I expect both to be tight. If we have spare actions floating around, though, then I'll certainly agree that farmland is a decent place to put one.
- The idea that growth formula is going to mean dramatically improving crop yields without further effort. If it does, farmland purchase starts being a notably stronger play for a number of reasons. That's true. We'll need to hear back from @King crimson on that one.

As for the ration pack, it literally has "would allow food to be grown in emergency situations thereby saving a lot of lives" written right on it. If that isn't worth heroism points, I'm not sure what is... and we can put a LexCorp label on every single one of them.

Void Stalker · Mar 26, 2022

If we improve farmlands we probably want a high end grocery chain established as well to sell the products and market them as organic and such to catch that wave early. And if we figure sustainable farming that requires our products, well that just is more business and good PR.

King crimson · Mar 26, 2022

jonasquinn said:
At absolute most once we've got the farmland and started a company we might need to take an action to start using the rapid growth formula, though I'm pretty sure that's already something we're doing isn't it @King crimson?,

I'm not fully certain I'm understanding the question posed here. If the question being asked is "if we create a company based on growing things with the farmland we've acquired would we need to take an action to use the rapid growth formula?" the answer is "no at most you'd need to have a subvote for it that could be activated from the hero vote".

If that is not the question being asked then please clarify so I can answer more accurately.

Sirrocco said:
The idea that growth formula is going to mean dramatically improving crop yields without further effort. If it does, farmland purchase starts being a notably stronger play for a number of reasons. That's true. We'll need to hear back from @King crimson on that one.

This is a different question that kind of asks how the growth formula works. The growth formula can be used passively but that doesn't mean you'll necessarily only get positive things from it passively. There's no chance for the growth formula to fail but there is a chance that a background roll can cause complications to arise later on down the line due to secondary and tertiary effects.

Sirrocco · Mar 26, 2022

Void Stalker said:
If we improve farmlands we probably want a high end grocery chain established as well to sell the products and market them as organic and such to catch that wave early. And if we figure sustainable farming that requires our products, well that just is more business and good PR.

Not at first. At first, it's going to be all about getting food on tables so that people don't starve. That's "savior of humanity" points right there. That's directly applicable to our overarching game goals. We can worry about cornering the market on "high end grocery chains" later.

King crimson said:
I'm not fully certain I'm understanding the question posed here. If the question being asked is "if we create a company based on growing things with the farmland we've acquired would we need to take an action to use the rapid growth formula?" the answer is "no at most you'd need to have a subvote for it that could be activated from the hero vote".

If that is not the question being asked then please clarify so I can answer more accurately.

This is a different question that kind of asks how the growth formula works. The growth formula can be used passively but that doesn't mean you'll necessarily only get positive things from it passively. There's no chance for the growth formula to fail but there is a chance that a background roll can cause complications to arise later on down the line due to secondary and tertiary effects.

That was pretty much the question, as I understand it. And your answer, as I understand it, is "You'll totally be able to use the growth formula, which will significantly improve crop yields in the short term, and thus provide practical benefit in the form of people not starving. In the medium/long term, this may result in a few supervillains." Is that basically accurate?

Void Stalker · Mar 26, 2022

Sirrocco said:
Not at first. At first, it's going to be all about getting food on tables so that people don't starve. That's "savior of humanity" points right there. That's directly applicable to our overarching game goals. We can worry about cornering the market on "high end grocery chains" later.

For rebuild after braniac? If so sure. But really bigger issue is logistics- if we can setup improved logistics we can get existing food supplies to less served parts of the world

Sirrocco · Mar 26, 2022

Void Stalker said:
For rebuild after braniac? If so sure. But really bigger issue is logistics- if we can setup improved logistics we can get existing food supplies to less served parts of the world

You need both enough food produced and enough logistics... and post-Brainiac, both are likely to be a problem.

We're in a position to help with the "enough food produced" side of things.... just like we're in a good position to help with the "rebuilding" side. We don't have enough actions to solve all of the problems ourselves - we need to focus on the ones where we have advantage.

King crimson · Mar 26, 2022

Sirrocco said:
That was pretty much the question, as I understand it. And your answer, as I understand it, is "You'll totally be able to use the growth formula, which will significantly improve crop yields in the short term, and thus provide practical benefit in the form of people not starving. In the medium/long term, this may result in a few supervillains." Is that basically accurate?

This is more or less accurate.

Sirrocco · Mar 26, 2022

Okay. In that case... I think it's likely worth it to buy up farmland now, juice it appropriately,, and accept that that may mean that we have a few supervillains to deal with later. We do have a decent team of in-house supers, and we've got plans to get more. We can handle those kinds of prices.

jonasquinn · Mar 26, 2022

Sirrocco said:
If it were just metropolis I'd agree with you, but I want heavy rebuilding in every city that has a Tower in it. That is how we turn this into a massive PR victory on a personal level. We sell the idea that it's not just Metropolis. We sell the idea that every city with a Tower is LexCorp territory and that's a good thing.

Okay. Fair point. I was conflating "hire workers" and "expand Future Construction". Really, it's the latter that I'm interested in. It's a great place to put basically anyone who wants a job, there's a huge demand for services worldwide, and it really puts some oomph into making LexCorp the face of the reconstruction.

I get where you're coming from but we're going to be reconstructing other major cities anyway in the background since Future Construction is a national company that's already big enough that we've never had any indication that they're short in people plus a DC 75 to expand them will still require a sizeable team

I feel like the same thing can be accomplished just by putting Marie on advertising them, we get the, more contracts and they rebuild more cities without having to put in a bunch of extra effort expanding them, especially if we also take an action to develop Jump City since it'll probably be them doing that as well

Sirrocco said:
Part of the point of the VAA is going to change the secret identity dynamic in a big way. The idea isn't that we track them down individually. It's that we have a major initiative to get them to come to us, and then we grab whoever we can get.This has been a major multi-action turn with a bunch of subvotes and a bunch of hero support, both from us and from others. It's going to have a big impact on the way that the world works.

That makes sense but something I feel needs to be pointed out is that the VAA hasn't been passed yet, at the earliest it will be passed next turn which means the rush to hire a bunch of superheroes won't start until the turn after next

Sirrocco said:
As for "at most"... you're suggesting that when we open the floodgates of the ability to hire superheroes that no one else is really going to be interested? When they've had months or more to see it coming and work out a strategy? I don't believe that. Every two-bit corporation in the US led by a CEO with even mild megalomania is going to be trying to get their fingers in this. This is the hiring frenzy.

I was mostly talking about our biggest competitors rather than the smaller ones and in that area I don't think we have much to worry about and any decent hero would rather work for LexCorp that our smaller competitors

On a related note I do really want to try and grab Booster Gold, not only is he a good hero but his future tech could theoretically be reverse engineered and he's enough of a glory hound that we could easily win him over, we could have him be a main character in Timestoppers!

The only issue is that with his canonical friendship with Blue Beetle he may be more inclined to go for KordTech

Sirrocco said:
It's in the space. There are people who are using it who should be using LexPhones instead. Its continued survival as a product implies that other competitors might also be able to take bites of our rightful domain. It still counts.

Such offenses cannot be allowed to stand. Certainly not from the likes of Kord.

Still. Not this turn. Next turn. That's kind of my point, though - from what I can see, this turn is so packed that we have to put off a bunch of stuff that would basically be entirely unacceptable otherwise.

That's fair though honestly with how many actions are going to need Lex and/or Felicity I don't see us getting round to dealing with it anytime soon

It might be worth it to get a phone lab first

Sirrocco said:
As for the ration pack, it literally has "would allow food to be grown in emergency situations thereby saving a lot of lives" written right on it. If that isn't worth heroism points, I'm not sure what is... and we can put a LexCorp label on every single one of them.

It will win us some points but it also means being primarily associated with the probably fairly bland thing people had to eat just to survive the food crisis which while worth some points is a lot less than solving the food crisis

Void Stalker said:
If we improve farmlands we probably want a high end grocery chain established as well to sell the products and market them as organic and such to catch that wave early. And if we figure sustainable farming that requires our products, well that just is more business and good PR.

At some point down the line sure but for the immediate future I think we can get away with just selling to grocery stores

King crimson said:
I'm not fully certain I'm understanding the question posed here. If the question being asked is "if we create a company based on growing things with the farmland we've acquired would we need to take an action to use the rapid growth formula?" the answer is "no at most you'd need to have a subvote for it that could be activated from the hero vote".

If that is not the question being asked then please clarify so I can answer more accurately.

Yeah that's about what I meant, sorry for wording it confusingly

Sirrocco said:
Okay. In that case... I think it's likely worth it to buy up farmland now, juice it appropriately,, and accept that that may mean that we have a few supervillains to deal with later. We do have a decent team of in-house supers, and we've got plans to get more. We can handle those kinds of prices.

I would say improve what we currently have this upcoming turn and design the ration bar, hopefully that will allow us to figure out any potential issues with the rapid frostbite formula, and the buy new farmland the next turn to pump up production

It might also be worth considering that a far, with rapidly growing crops is the exact kind of farm that Enoch Brown would be an amazing choice to manage

Actually on that note @King crimson if we were theoretically to get Enoch Brown has a hero unit would Emmylou be included as well? Kinda like with Carl and Carla?

Sirrocco · Mar 26, 2022

jonasquinn said:
I get where you're coming from but we're going to be reconstructing other major cities anyway in the background since Future Construction is a national company that's already big enough that we've never had any indication that they're short in people plus a DC 75 to expand them will still require a sizeable team

I feel like the same thing can be accomplished just by putting Marie on advertising them, we get the, more contracts and they rebuild more cities without having to put in a bunch of extra effort expanding them, especially if we also take an action to develop Jump City since it'll probably be them doing that as well

It really can't. "Improve advertising" gets more contracts coming in the door. "expand Future Construction" gets more capacity to actually complete those contracts. Every city on the planet has been devastated at the same time, and Future Construction is a construction company that pretty much specializes in post-disaster rebuilding. Getting contracts in the door is not the chokepoint here.

That makes sense but something I feel needs to be pointed out is that the VAA hasn't been passed yet, at the earliest it will be passed next turn which means the rush to hire a bunch of superheroes won't start until the turn after next

Okay, you and I have very different ideas about this, then, because I was under the distinct impression that it was going to pass this turn. @King crimson could we have clarification on this?

I was mostly talking about our biggest competitors rather than the smaller ones and in that area I don't think we have much to worry about and any decent hero would rather work for LexCorp that our smaller competitors

On a related note I do really want to try and grab Booster Gold, not only is he a good hero but his future tech could theoretically be reverse engineered and he's enough of a glory hound that we could easily win him over, we could have him be a main character in Timestoppers!

The only issue is that with his canonical friendship with Blue Beetle he may be more inclined to go for KordTech

If everyone is in the marketplace hiring, the available pool of unhired shrinks rapidly. If we're not out there trying to pull them in, we're not oneof those. I guarantee, if we don't take some sort of "hire supers" action in response to the VAA passing, we'll wind up with notably fewer supers on the rolls than if we do. The supers are going to be looking for patrons. Now, we have huge advantages as a patron, sure... but in order to leverage them, we need to get out there and actually be an obvious option, and I'm pretty sure that's going to take an action.

Also, it's not just the corps. Sure, you'll get corps out there, but we're also going to see various branches of the government - national, state, and local. Remember, everyone in the world has just had an personally significant object lesson on why you might want to have a few pet supers of your own. If we sleep on this one, I guarantee, they won't.

That's fair though honestly with how many actions are going to need Lex and/or Felicity I don't see us getting round to dealing with it anytime soon

It might be worth it to get a phone lab first

Well, it's not this round's argument regardless.

It will win us some points but it also means being primarily associated with the probably fairly bland thing people had to eat just to survive the food crisis which while worth some points is a lot less than solving the food crisis

"Buy up some farmland" is not "solve the food crisis". If we want to solve the food crisis, we need to go a lot heavier than one or two no-hero actions. Now, that might be worthwhile... but that's not what you're currently proposing. Buying up some farmland and throwing around Plant Growth formula will help. It'll help a fair bit... but it's not "solve the food crisis" levels of help.

I would say improve what we currently have this upcoming turn and design the ration bar, hopefully that will allow us to figure out any potential issues with the rapid frostbite formula, and the buy new farmland the next turn to pump up production

What? Why? The crisis is now. We seriously can afford a supervillain or two a few turns down the line. If we're going to respond to the food crisis in any way, our responses need to be this turn, not when we get around to them. It's far too late to be refining.

It might also be worth considering that a far, with rapidly growing crops is the exact kind of farm that Enoch Brown would be an amazing choice to manage

Actually on that note @King crimson if we were theoretically to get Enoch Brown has a hero unit would Emmylou be included as well? Kinda like with Carl and Carla?

I agree that Farmer Brown would be great, but he's up in the Gotham area, and we've no idea how to get in touch with him, or even come to be aware of his potential existence. We've done a few vague fishing expeditions there before and come up with bupkis.

jonasquinn · Mar 26, 2022

Sirrocco said:
It really can't. "Improve advertising" gets more contracts coming in the door. "expand Future Construction" gets more capacity to actually complete those contracts. Every city on the planet has been devastated at the same time, and Future Construction is a construction company that pretty much specializes in post-disaster rebuilding. Getting contracts in the door is not the chokepoint here.

Fair enough, this is probably an area where we'll have to agree to disagree

I definitely see where you're coming from but personally I don't think the boost from expanding FC is worth the team it would require next turn

Sirrocco said:
Okay, you and I have very different ideas about this, then, because I was under the distinct impression that it was going to pass this turn. @King crimson could we have clarification on this?

It's also possible that we might have different ideas of what "this turn" refers to, for me it means the turn we're currently still on, turn 28 whereas I think you're thinking of it as the turn we're about to go into, turn 29

Sirrocco said:
"Buy up some farmland" is not "solve the food crisis". If we want to solve the food crisis, we need to go a lot heavier than one or two no-hero actions. Now, that might be worthwhile... but that's not what you're currently proposing. Buying up some farmland and throwing around Plant Growth formula will help. It'll help a fair bit... but it's not "solve the food crisis" levels of help.

That's fair, that was probably hyperbole on my part

On a separate note I do think we should put a hero or two on the relevant actions

Sirrocco said:
What? Why? The crisis is now. We seriously can afford a supervillain or two a few turns down the line. If we're going to respond to the food crisis in any way, our responses need to be this turn, not when we get around to them. It's far too late to be refining.

Again I think this might be a miscommunication of what "next turn" means but either way my point is that a national food shortage isn't going to immediately develop or be solved in one turn

My suggested plan is that on turn 29 we improve the farms we already have and develop the ration bar to start mitigating he effects of the shortage and position ourselves well without dedicating a ton of actions to it and then on turn 30 we build the new farms in order to roll out our production on a wider scale, and potentially develop Blue Valley since those could synergise well

Sirrocco said:
I agree that Farmer Brown would be great, but he's up in the Gotham area, and we've no idea how to get in touch with him, or even come to be aware of his potential existence. We've done a few vague fishing expeditions there before and come up with bupkis.

I would argue that we've looked for talent in Gotham but not really around Gotham plus if any potential job is going to get him to throw his hat in the ring it would be being the head of a farming company doing what he always wanted to do

King crimson · Mar 26, 2022

jonasquinn said:
Actually on that note @King crimson if we were theoretically to get Enoch Brown has a hero unit would Emmylou be included as well? Kinda like with Carl and Carla?

Theoretically yes. However, it is also possible that if you were to get Enoch Brown as a hero unit at a certain point in time, then Emmylou Brown would be less useful than her appearance in the BTAS episode would lead you to believe due to her not having built up a set way (Enoch has to be placed in such a situation where he's willing to give his daughter the same steroids he used to make mutant cows in order to grant her superstrength).

Sirrocco said:
Okay, you and I have very different ideas about this, then, because I was under the distinct impression that it was going to pass this turn. @King crimson could we have clarification on this?

I'm not 100% sure where you got the impression that the bill was going to pass this turn (turn 28) and if I remember correctly then there is nothing that concretely states that this is the case. For example, the wording of some of the stuff in the Battle for the Bill subvote suggests that there's at least a little more time before it passes even if it is closing in on the end. That being said Brainiac's attack is going to accelerate its acceptance and the acceptance of legislation like it in a lot of places.

Sirrocco said:
I agree that Farmer Brown would be great, but he's up in the Gotham area, and we've no idea how to get in touch with him, or even come to be aware of his potential existence. We've done a few vague fishing expeditions there before and come up with bupkis.

This is by no means a guarantee of how to find Farmer Brown but I can give you some advice. Look at the relevant traits of Enoch Brown and figure out which ones would let you search for him most effectively (as well as which hero unit you might want on the action) as well as what are the traits that would let you search for him and a viable replacement to him.

There are a lot of ways you could search for him which might be more effective than looking in Gotham City itself and fishing for him that way. You have a few different ways to try and recruit any one target and so you can potentially try multiple approaches to recruit them.

Negation · Mar 26, 2022

King crimson said:
Theoretically yes. However, it is also possible that if you were to get Enoch Brown as a hero unit at a certain point in time, then Emmylou Brown would be less useful than her appearance in the BTAS episode would lead you to believe due to her not having built up a set way (Enoch has to be placed in such a situation where he's willing to give his daughter the same steroids he used to make mutant cows in order to grant her superstrength).

Why would we put her on steroids? We want the Browns for their brains!

King crimson said:
There are a lot of ways you could search for him which might be more effective than looking in Gotham City itself and fishing for him that way. You have a few different ways to try and recruit any one target and so you can potentially try multiple approaches to recruit them.

Oh yeah. He goal was to help end world hunger. He needs investors. We should try having Pamela assigned to the "Invest in Small Business" Action.

jonasquinn · Mar 26, 2022

King crimson said:
Theoretically yes. However, it is also possible that if you were to get Enoch Brown as a hero unit at a certain point in time, then Emmylou Brown would be less useful than her appearance in the BTAS episode would lead you to believe due to her not having built up a set way (Enoch has to be placed in such a situation where he's willing to give his daughter the same steroids he used to make mutant cows in order to grant her superstrength).

While having her with super strength would be good I also wouldn't turn down what would basically just be a secondary hero unit that we can have work with her father, especially if she gives a bonus to farm related actions

King crimson said:
I'm not 100% sure where you got the impression that the bill was going to pass this turn (turn 28) and if I remember correctly then there is nothing that concretely states that this is the case. For example, the wording of some of the stuff in the Battle for the Bill subvote suggests that there's at least a little more time before it passes even if it is closing in on the end. That being said Brainiac's attack is going to accelerate its acceptance and the acceptance of legislation like it in a lot of places.

My interpretation, and correct me if I'm wrong, was that on the turn that the VAA is passed it would basically be treated as an action the US Government has taken and thus shown in Part 3 of the results for that turn

Meaning the earliest we could act on it would be turn 30

King crimson said:
This is by no means a guarantee of how to find Farmer Brown but I can give you some advice. Look at the relevant traits of Enoch Brown and figure out which ones would let you search for him most effectively (as well as which hero unit you might want on the action) as well as what are the traits that would let you search for him and a viable replacement to him.

There are a lot of ways you could search for him which might be more effective than looking in Gotham City itself and fishing for him that way. You have a few different ways to try and recruit any one target and so you can potentially try multiple approaches to recruit them.

Hmm, the best guess I can come up with is putting Pamela on looking for a CEO of whatever food company we create, she's a scientist herself, is also from Gotham, has some experience in encouraging the growth of living creatures and the company itself is right up his alley, especially if we use rapid growth formula

Maybe throw in Karl as well because he's a biologist and also from Gotham?

Negation said:
Why would we put her on steroids? We want the Browns for their brains!

Do we know if Emmylou is actually that smart? It's possible because her father was a genius and she was his assistant but it's also possible that she was just a farmhand

Negation said:
Oh yeah. He goal was to help end world hunger. He needs investors. We should try having Pamela assigned to the "Invest in Small Business" Action.

That could work but does that technically count as a business?

Sirrocco · Mar 26, 2022

jonasquinn said:
It's also possible that we might have different ideas of what "this turn" refers to, for me it means the turn we're currently still on, turn 28 whereas I think you're thinking of it as the turn we're about to go into, turn 29

Okay. So, WoQM it's not done yet... so now we have another turn of pushing on that thing? This is just getting exhausting.

Depending on the DC, might be worth just leaving it be and hoping that other forces don't mangle it too badly as it crosses the finish line, but we know that other folks are going to be messing with it. Superman is absolutely going to start messing with it.

I hope this thing is worth the pain once it gets done.

jonasquinn said:
On a separate note I do think we should put a hero or two on the relevant actions

Okay, a short while ago you were talking up how they were near-free because heroes matter and actions don't, and that was why you were pushing this. You seemed clearly convinced at the time that this was going to produce all sorts of fantastic benefits, so the fact that the potential benefits are real can't have been what changed your mind. What changed you mind?

jonasquinn said:
Again I think this might be a miscommunication of what "next turn" means but either way my point is that a national food shortage isn't going to immediately develop or be solved in one turn

My suggested plan is that on turn 29 we improve the farms we already have and develop the ration bar to start mitigating he effects of the shortage and position ourselves well without dedicating a ton of actions to it and then on turn 30 we build the new farms in order to roll out our production on a wider scale, and potentially develop Blue Valley since those could synergise well

I don't believe this is a miscommunication, no. Farmland is one of those things that produces over time. Even if there's a bit of lag, the time to get started on growing crops is now. Sure, it'll take time for food stores to become entirely exhausted, but it'll take time for those crops to produce food, too. We should buy farmland first, and get it running. We can maybe refine later, or just let it run with what we've got.

jonasquinn · Mar 26, 2022

Sirrocco said:
Okay. So, WoQM it's not done yet... so now we have another turn of pushing on that thing? This is just getting exhausting.

Depending on the DC, might be worth just leaving it be and hoping that other forces don't mangle it too badly as it crosses the finish line, but we know that other folks are going to be messing with it. Superman is absolutely going to start messing with it.

I hope this thing is worth the pain once it gets done.

Personally I don't think there's much point in pushing it next turn, it's almost certainly going to be passed and we've put so much work into it that it would be kinda ridiculous if it was suddenly altered because we spent one turn not pushing it

Sirrocco said:
Okay, a short while ago you were talking up how they were near-free because heroes matter and actions don't, and that was why you were pushing this. You seemed clearly convinced at the time that this was going to produce all sorts of fantastic benefits, so the fact that the potential benefits are real can't have been what changed your mind. What changed you mind?

I think this was a misunderstanding, I never meant to imply that we shouldn't put hero units on these actions

My point is that our limiting factor is heroes not actions and most if not all of the arm related actions can succeed well with just one hero unit on them while a lot of the more high DC actions would take larger teams which would mean less heroes for other actions, you see what I mean?

Sorry for any confusion

Sirrocco said:
I don't believe this is a miscommunication, no. Farmland is one of those things that produces over time. Even if there's a bit of lag, the time to get started on growing crops is now. Sure, it'll take time for food stores to become entirely exhausted, but it'll take time for those crops to produce food, too. We should buy farmland first, and get it running. We can maybe refine later, or just let it run with what we've got.

That's a fair point and I can totally see the logic of doing it that way around, I was mostly thinking that improving our farms is the lower DC but I could go either way

King crimson · Mar 26, 2022

jonasquinn said:
My interpretation, and correct me if I'm wrong, was that on the turn that the VAA is passed it would basically be treated as an action the US Government has taken and thus shown in Part 3 of the results for that turn

Meaning the earliest we could act on it would be turn 30

Yeah this is more or less correct. The thing is that the US Government is going to accelerate the hell out of things post-Brainiac so you'll be given a lot more legal bailiwick to play with.

Sirrocco said:
Okay. So, WoQM it's not done yet... so now we have another turn of pushing on that thing? This is just getting exhausting.

WoQM would also like to point out that you invested less than 4 turns into it (1 year) and that post-Brainiac the law is going to be accelerated even further and that the general shape of the law is already out there it's just a few technicalities and edge cases that are being sorted out.

I can understand it being exhausting but when you're pushing for an option that is literally society altering, I personally think it's more than fair to make it obnoxious to get it exactly how you want it down to the letter (you're literally writing the rules that are going to define superhero interactions in the US, if I gave you that in one turn with no pushback and without high DC costs then I made it way too easy).

You're going to get the VAA passed no matter what but if you want to control every aspect of it then you need to invest and put in the effort to shape it the way you want it.

Edit: As for whether or not the effort is worth it, you're forcing people like Hawkgirl, Martian Manhunter and the Question, who don't have a high reputation or a connection to an organization to conform to some organizations standards or be treated as a criminal. Captain Marvel/Shazam (who is a child when he's not empowered) is going to face massive issues because of these laws. Even relatively big names like Green Lantern and the Flash would be forced to adapt to dealing with this law. Sure some individuals like Batman and the Doom Patrol can slide past it fairly successfully but the VAA will have a massive effect on the entire dynamic of superheroing going forward from here. Furthermore beyond the political implications of all of this the most relevant change this causes is that it gives a lot of heroes a weakness in that there's a secondary structure that can be targeted to affect them. You no longer have to attack Superman to cause Superman problems you can attack his sponsor and mess with them to make his life hell and that's going to potentially warp dynamics.

Sirrocco · Mar 27, 2022

jonasquinn said:
I think this was a misunderstanding, I never meant to imply that we shouldn't put hero units on these actions

My point is that our limiting factor is heroes not actions and most if not all of the arm related actions can succeed well with just one hero unit on them while a lot of the more high DC actions would take larger teams which would mean less heroes for other actions, you see what I mean?

Sorry for any confusion

Ah. No. It turns out that one was on me. You'd presented "develop Blue Valley" as a potential supporting non-hero action, and I'd put that together with "heroes are our limiting factor" and gotten a little crosswired.

I mean, I'd still say that there's a little something off in saying "it's okay, because our real limiting factor is heroes" when you're actually hoping to assign a hero to the action that you're advocating for with that argument but not mentioning it out loud... but that's relatively minor.

King crimson said:
Yeah this is more or less correct. The thing is that the US Government is going to accelerate the hell out of things post-Brainiac so you'll be given a lot more legal bailiwick to play with.

WoQM would also like to point out that you invested less than 4 turns into it (1 year) and that post-Brainiac the law is going to be accelerated even further and that the general shape of the law is already out there it's just a few technicalities and edge cases that are being sorted out.

I can understand it being exhausting but when you're pushing for an option that is literally society altering, I personally think it's more than fair to make it obnoxious to get it exactly how you want it down to the letter (you're literally writing the rules that are going to define superhero interactions in the US, if I gave you that in one turn with no pushback and without high DC costs then I made it way too easy).

You're going to get the VAA passed no matter what but if you want to control every aspect of it then you need to invest and put in the effort to shape it the way you want it.

Edit: As for whether or not the effort is worth it, you're forcing people like Hawkgirl, Martian Manhunter and the Question, who don't have a high reputation or a connection to an organization to conform to some organizations standards or be treated as a criminal. Captain Marvel/Shazam (who is a child when he's not empowered) is going to face massive issues because of these laws. Even relatively big names like Green Lantern and the Flash would be forced to adapt to dealing with this law. Sure some individuals like Batman and the Doom Patrol can slide past it fairly successfully but the VAA will have a massive effect on the entire dynamic of superheroing going forward from here. Furthermore beyond the political implications of all of this the most relevant change this causes is that it gives a lot of heroes a weakness in that there's a secondary structure that can be targeted to affect them. You no longer have to attack Superman to cause Superman problems you can attack his sponsor and mess with them to make his life hell and that's going to potentially warp dynamics.

Okay. This is all fair. If it's going to have the kick to go with the cost, then I can be good with that. So... just to be clear on understanding what you've just said here... you said both "you'll be given a lot more legal bailiwick to play with" and "it's just a few technicalities and edge cases that are being sorted out". Let's suppose that we decide that we don't really care about the technicalities and edge cases (because Brainiac hit, and we have other things that are more important) but that we do care about making sure that the thing has some real teeth and/or expanding it as appropriate. Would that be a "It's all down to technicalities now - let the people who care about those worry about it." or "Brainiac's invasion has seriously shaken things up, and you need to be there to guide the effects of that." or "Roll the bones. It could go either way."?

King crimson · Mar 27, 2022

Sirrocco said:
So... just to be clear on understanding what you've just said here... you said both "you'll be given a lot more legal bailiwick to play with" and "it's just a few technicalities and edge cases that are being sorted out". Let's suppose that we decide that we don't really care about the technicalities and edge cases (because Brainiac hit, and we have other things that are more important) but that we do care about making sure that the thing has some real teeth and/or expanding it as appropriate. Would that be a "It's all down to technicalities now - let the people who care about those worry about it." or "Brainiac's invasion has seriously shaken things up, and you need to be there to guide the effects of that." or "Roll the bones. It could go either way."?

So, I'm going to clarify things as best I can regarding these statements. I hope that you find my explanation sufficient but if not feel free to ask more questions.

I'll begin by elaborating on the "you'll be given a lot more legal bailiwick to play with statement". Prior to Brainiac's attack, control superheroes was relatively limited. Yes, there were talks and people were interested but there was this constant sort of reinforcement of the idea that the superheroes could handle things well enough on their own that they didn't need a legal superstructure to tightly control them and establish protocols for behavior. People like Superman and Green Lantern coasted by in an uncharted area of legality and there was no pressing need for people to try and control and coordinate things. Brainiac's attack is a massive sign to everyone that things need to change and be restructured. The legal realities of a world with superheroes remained largely theoretical and with Brainiac's attack that's no longer the case. People who could remain detached now no longer are and are more interested than ever in exploring superhero legality. You'll be given a lot of wiggle room to play around in right now because the state of superheroics was previously in the wild west and now people have been shown they need to settle it.

Now to elaborate on that the VAA will not be the only thing that will come out of this exploration. The VAA is almost certainly going to shape a lot of things going forwards, but it is by no means the be all end all of the political discussion regarding superheroes in the US. As such there are "a few technicalities and edge cases being sorted out" in the VAA which is going to serve as the groundwork for things going forward but at the same time you'll be given room to further move in the legal side of things because the VAA is by no means going to end conversation on such things. It'll be the baseline of things moving forward but it will not be the only legalities existing and it might get tweaked later if certain things are found to not be working as intended.

As for the general shape of the VAA it will require that superheroes require a sponsor who can be fined by a government board for failing to meet standards. It will also likely require that at least the DOMA approve of the sponsors in question. Individuals who do not follow the law will be criminalized to a significant degree (with a minimum jail time). There will also almost certainly not be a superhuman registry. Other things like tax rules, salaries for sponsored superheroes and such are still being followed up on.

If you like that general shape of things you're probably fine and wouldn't need to interact with it much. The big shakeup of Brainiac's attack is likely going to be the follow-up where once the VAA is passed the US Government is almost certainly going to draft laws regarding when Superheroes are "forced" to act and whether or not they are draftable in states of war and crisis.

So, to answer your question regarding the VAA, the exact state of whether you need to care about it or not depends on what your hot button issues are for it. That being said Brainiac's attack has opened up some additional discussions that will be coming after the VAA passes that will likely be of great interest to you.

Have I sufficiently clarified things or do I need to further elaborate?

Negation · Mar 27, 2022

jonasquinn said:
Do we know if Emmylou is actually that smart? It's possible because her father was a genius and she was his assistant

This is DC, legacies are a thing. Just look at all the superhero/villain families. They are all related somehow.

jonasquinn said:
That could work but does that technically count as a business?

Yes. He's aiming to sell his products. We can try.

I would not mind if we manage to find and absorb Argo Technologies to we can get 3 Hero units too.

Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

What sort of tone should I shoot for with this Quest?

Go as crack fueled as you can we want Ambush Bug, Snowflame and Duckseid

Go for something silly but keep a little bit of reason

Adam West Camp

Balanced as all things should be

Mostly serious but not self-involvedly so

Dark and brooding but with light at the end of the tunnel

We're evil and we don't want anyone to be happy

Pedantic

Pedantic

Pedantic

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph

Pedantic

Pedantic

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph

Pedantic

Pedantic

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph

Pedantic

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph

Pedantic

Confusion Will Be My Epitaph