Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

What sort of tone should I shoot for with this Quest?

  • Go as crack fueled as you can we want Ambush Bug, Snowflame and Duckseid

    Votes: 30 7.7%
  • Go for something silly but keep a little bit of reason

    Votes: 31 7.9%
  • Adam West Camp

    Votes: 27 6.9%
  • Balanced as all things should be

    Votes: 195 50.0%
  • Mostly serious but not self-involvedly so

    Votes: 73 18.7%
  • Dark and brooding but with light at the end of the tunnel

    Votes: 12 3.1%
  • We're evil and we don't want anyone to be happy

    Votes: 22 5.6%

  • Total voters
    390
  • Poll closed .
Yes, I did misunderstand, and I apologize for that. If it is simply an attempt to make Superman appear redundant and that he does more harm than good than it's not an option that would immediately blow up in your face and there should be an option for it. That being said attempting to use Lois for this as some kind of "gotcha" moment really won't work at all as her statements on Brainiac are almost always going to include the really important caveat of "Superman had no idea who or what Brainiac was and thought he was gone" which kind of makes it difficult to paint him in a terrible light.

That being said elements of what you are saying is veering dangerously close to misinformation ("the multiple aliens coming to earth to search for Superman" comment for example) and so I do think that the general warning of "don't build this up to be some kind of perfect flawless silver bullet and be careful of what exactly you want to push for" is applicable here. I might be taking hyperbole too literally, but I do want to make it clear that this is by no means going to be as easy as you've seemed to present it.

We'll probably need a subvote as to the specifics of the documentary and an interlude for the superhero group, but the general gist here is that the documentary is a PR\politics trick.

You said that the difference between Lexpo and this is that superman is not directly in charge of the security of the world.
This paints him more as a good samaritan than a protector - if he decides to do superheroics then it's an "at his own convenience" kind of thing and thus he owes nothing to anybody since this is the equivalent of charity work so to speak.

Our goal is to make heroes directly involved in such things from the get-go (hence, a global initiative) and thus not have the benefit of "we don't owe you anything" to protect them (or more specifically, superman).
if we make it "their job" then we can also make them liable for damages, intentional or otherwise (by, say, making information gathering and prevention among their responsibilities)- and all of it under the guise of "united cooperation efforts" and "coordinating heroes on a global scale" and pushing for a larger superhero society rather than the disconnected vigilantes of today.

In addition, again, pushing the idea that we are doing superman a favor by letting him be around here just as much as he is doing us a favor by helping out, and that helping out is the least that he can do so to speak.

Also, making him less iconic and demonstrating that he is fallible (which he is, as Brainiac and Lobo demonstrated, if nothing else), regardless of how powerful he is, will work massively in our favor.
We don't even need to necessarily diminish what he does, just emphasize what everyone else does in order to fit into our narrative.

And yes, some part of this is just sticking it to Lois.
The documentary will be meant as a promotion to these ideas, and by getting involved and initiating this ourselves we will have far more leverage and influence on any such group than one that would form naturally through necessity (I'd argue that if we wouldn't do anything then such a group will form in the next turn regardless)

Shit, we might even be able to sponsor the teen titans if we play the "superhero initiative" well enough, I can think of at least a couple of approaches for this issue but it's too early to tell.

The specifics of it need to be hashed out, but this is generally what is happening.

***

This entire conversation is all well and good but we'll need an update to go along with that before we actually plan anything concrete :V
 
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Cassandra sparring with Jade
Omake: Cassandra Sparring with Jade

Cassandra did not know what brought this on.
When her friend Jinx told her about how her new friend Jade was a good fighter, Cassandra told her that she already knew that - after all, Jade's body quite clearly told Cassandra all about that.

So when Jinx puffed her cheeks and told Cassandra that Jade was 'probably better than her' Cassandra couldn't help but be confused - How could Jinx possibly know? Or at the very least, what spurred on this hypothesis in the first place?
She studied the human mind somewhat and she knew that Jinx was upset, perhaps she was trying to lead the conversation some way and Cassandra ruined that? If so then she shouldn't have been so obvious about it.

But maybe Cassandra was reading this all wrong? Father had told her all about how what people's bodies say and what their mouth says are not always the same, so could it be that Cassandra was misreading it? She thought that she understood social cues but it was possible that something here was going over her head.

All the same, Cassandra knew all about the scientific method and thus had set up an experiment in the form of a sparring match to try and see if Jinx had a measure of insight that she herself didn't.

It took some scheduling but eventually Jade and Cassandra had squared off at Cassandra's private martial arts studio.
With her fist cracking against Jade's jaw and sending the older girl to the ground, Cassandra couldn't help but wonder what brought this on.
What on earth made Jinx think that Jade was anywhere near Cassandra when it came to fighting, let alone better than her, Cassandra honestly did not know, and she did not know how this related to Jinx being so upset.

Jade was quick to go down (although she was just as quick to get back up, Cassandra wondered if she's used to being beaten like this. Previous training maybe?) and wasn't much in the way of putting up a fight.

Sure, the girl was good - she was an agile, flexible fighter, was taller, had better reach than Cassandra, and she had good footwork and awareness of positioning, balance, and momentum to capitalize on all of that.
She might have even been very good but Cassandra was shutting her down way too fast for her to demonstrate the full scope of her ability.
The thing was, she fought a lot like Cassandra herself did, with the difference being that Cassandra was better by far in every way (As she should be as Luthor).
She had better reflexes, was much quicker, and had better awareness of her own body and its relative position when compared to the opponent.

So even if Jade was longer than she was, it was quite easy to make her overextend and-
"Oof!" Jade cried as she hit the floor once more, the impact knocking the wind out of her lungs.

'yes' Cassandra thought, even as Jade got back up and gave her a look that she could now recognize as evaluation 'This disproves the hypothesis'
After all, a single experiment was not enough to prove a theory, but it was enough to disprove one, and quite frankly, this entire thing did not really teach Cassandra anything new.

The sky was blue, water was wet and Cassandra Luthor was the best.

It wasn't even fun.
Beating someone so much worse than her is not fun - she gained nothing from this, not fun, not understanding, not a reaffirmation of her status as the best, and clearly, a different approach was necessary to find out why Jinx reacted the way that she did.

Thud!
Jade hit the mat once more.
Cassandra wondered if all of this exercise warranted some cookies.

No.
It did not.
"Good job" cookies were given to winners and Cassandra did not earn her cookies since she wasn't a winner since this wasn't a challenge.

The challenge was understanding why her friend reacted the way that she had.
Maybe once she does that she could have some cookies as a celebration.

(Jinx will have to find her own cookies though)


***

Some backstory as to how and why Cassandra and Jade were sparring with one another in the first place during the personal actions section of turn 28.

The idea here is that Jinx was boasting to Cassandra about her new friend and how awesome she is, and Cassandra was kind of unimpressed, so Jinx gave her the petulant answer of "well, she's better than you".

And Cassandra being Cassandra, she took it overly seriously and assumed that she made some kind of a mistake and sought to correct it, which resulted in her absolutely wrecking Jade and becoming even more confused.

I took some creative liberties here but I do think that this could fit in canon. That isn't for me to decide.

The only thing I'm worried about here is that it's too short to count as an omake.
 
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So, I'm still pretty terrible at getting things done but the update should be out sometime today. Sorry for the many, many delays. That being said some minor bookkeeping first.
Omake: Cassandra Sparring with Jade
This omake is good enough to get canonized. I had to double-check that everything fit in neatly and there were no contradictions, but it did hold up and it is viable. Congrats 500 exp has been earned. That being said there are still some comments/critiques I would like to make.
When her friend Jinx told her about how her new friend Jade was a good fighter
This is a little nitpicky but the use of "her" here is unintentionally confusing due to switching in the middle of the sentence (the first and second her is Cassandra and the third her is Jinx). This could easily be fixed by rewriting the sentence as "When Jinx told Cassandra about how her new friend Jade..." and none of the meaning is lost.
Jade's body told quite clearly to Cassandra all about that
Again this is another section where things got a little choppy. I think it would flow a little better if rewritten as "Jade's body quite clearly told Cassandra all about that". It's just a little more smooth flowing like this.
If so then she shouldn't have been so obvious about it.
Cassandra knew that much better than most
This is a weird formatting thing which I'm not sure is intentional. Is the "Cassandra knew that better than most" supposed to be part of the same paragraph? It feels kind of fragmentary right now.
It took some scheduling but eventually Jade and Cassandra had squared off at Cassandra's private martial arts studio.

With her fist cracking against Jade's jaw and sending the older girl to the ground, Cassandra couldn't help but wonder what brought this on.
The transition here is a little rough and some expansion on how the fight began would be appreciated.

Additionally, this isn't a flaw but it is something I think is worth noting and that is that Jade is significantly taller than Cassandra (An estimate using the average heights of girls at their ages would place Jade as about 14 inches or 0.3556 meters taller). As such mechanistically the only way for Cassandra to hit Jade's jaw with her fist would either be to jump and hit her, do an incredibly weird backhanded strike that would lack a lot of force or uppercut Jade from almost directly underneath her. It's not something you necessarily need to take into consideration but if you want to expand the transition I'd recommend picking one of those three methods and detailing the approach (how does Cassandra step past Jade's guard or get enough momentum for the jump etc.).
(although she was just as quick to get back up, Cassandra wondered if she's used to being beaten like this. Previous training maybe?)
Not a criticism I just really liked this little parenthetical section. I actually like that in a really fucked up way it actually says more about Cassandra than about Jade that she thinks repeatedly getting beaten into the floor is "training".
was taller and longer than Cassandra,
might be better off as "taller and had longer reach than Cassandra".
The thing was, she fought a lot like Cassandra herself did, with the difference being that Cassandra was better by far in every way (As she should be as Luthor).
This is actually one of the parts that caused the most flak for whether or not it could be considered canon or not because Cassandra and Jade were both taught by members of the League of Shadows and thus technically learned similar styles, but they do not fight very similarly in practice. An integral element of Cassandra's fighting style is that she's constantly using her body reading to know what the opponent is going to do well in advance. Like the closest I can compare it to is the fight scene with Sherlock Holmes from Game of Shadows only instead of a long sequence Cassandra is doing that every second on every move. Jade does not have this ability and thus has to fight differently.

Even if the two of them were throwing punches the exact same way (which they wouldn't be as David Cain and Lawrence Crock aren't the same and taught differently) they'd still be using their punches differently over the course of the same fight. Cassandra fights more like a precog against humans while Jade has a fighting style closer to Batman's than someone like say Lady Shiva.

That being said under the principle of charity if I assume that by "The thing was she fought a lot like Cassandra herself did, with the difference being that Cassandra was better by far in every way..." as "Jade used rote techniques and seemingly had muscle memory similar to how Cassandra had been taught but was simply incapable of building up those same elements into nearly as effective an overall fighting style" then the statement is arguably true and it can be considered canon. It might not be what you've intended but it's ambiguous enough that the interpretation I gave could be the one Cassandra actually has and therefore it does pass muster to actually be canon.
Jade was longer than she was
Probably better off as "Jade had longer reach than her"
You dropped a J here in Jade.
After all, A single experiment was not enough to prove a theory, but it was enough to disprove one, and quite frankly, this entire thing did not really teach Cassandra anything new.

The sky was blue, water was wet and Cassandra Luthor was the best.

It wasn't even fun.
Beating someone so much worse than her is not fun - she gained nothing from this, not fun, not understanding, not a reaffirmation of her status as the best, and clearly, a different approach was necessary to find out why Jinx reacted the way that she did.

Thud!
Jade hit the mat once more.
I have mostly been critical and nitpicky when going over this omake but I'd like to praise this sequence as one I really like. There are some things I think could be improved (uncapitalize the "A" in "A single experiment" have the "The sky was blue..." sentence be part of the previous paragraph, change "is not fun" to "was not fun" etc.) but I also think this sequence really captures a lot of casual arrogance inherent to Cass while keeping that weird child/adult hybrid mentality.

I also think it's interesting to point out that Cassandra pointedly reaffirms that she's the best right before saying she didn't get a reaffirmation of herself as the best and it's interesting to note that inherent contradiction in POV that suggests she's an untrustworthy/misleading POV. It adds a lot in my opinion.
I took some creative liberties here but I do think that this could fit in canon. That isn't for me to decide.

The only thing I'm worried about here is that it's too short to count as an omake.
So, I can chime in a bit on things here. It does require a good bit of bending and twisting but it can fit into canon and it does work. I think that this piece's biggest weakness is the formatting (there are a lot of one sentence paragraphs). Cass's voice feels a little off to me but part of that is what naturally happens with different writers, the characters voices will naturally be changed and be a little off, and this felt close enough that it worked. This is an omake that knows what it wants to get done and does it in the most expedient way possible. It's a solid expansion on what was already there and while it is a bit brief there are some sections which actually add a good amount of nuance and depth to the overall piece.

This omake does break 500 words so it's more than covered length wise. Congrats, you've earned 500 exp. I look forward to seeing what else you end up writing.
 
Hey. Sorry for the bad news. I underestimated how long things would take me and so the update will only likely end up landing tomorrow. That being said here is a brief teaser of what I do have done so you can see that forward momentum is being made and progress is being achieved. Thank you all for your patience and understanding.
Jade Crock
Jade was in her opinion first and foremost a realist. People would say a lot of other things about her, she was a liar, an assassin, a coward, a bitch and a whole lot of other things but frankly Jade felt that the core of what made her who she was, was simply the fact that she knew who she was and how the world worked.

The world didn't give a shit about anyone or anything. You weren't special and if you weren't always looking out for number one someone bigger or stronger or meaner or smarter would walk all over you and take what was yours. Daddy dearest had long ago beaten out any notions that Jade deserved anything she didn't take. And furthermore, Jade knew herself well enough that she was confident that she couldn't rely on anyone other than herself. Some people overcame the harshness and unfairness through structures and systems but Jade chafed at confinement and captivity and passivity.

Of course, she couldn't buck off the benefits of cooperation and society entirely, she liked indoor plumbing and air conditioning, not to mention running shoes, Big Belly Burgers and L-phones too much to ever really live in the woods unknown and cut off from the world like some kind of savage. The ultra-violence of being a hermit who didn't interact with anyone at all was appealing but not enough that it would make that path worthwhile.

And so Jade constantly sat on the precipice of society, the fringes in which an assassin might operate, constantly moving with the ebb and flow of where she could benefit from easy living and the ability to do what she wanted and ready to bolt whenever people tried to tie people down. Mother had once said some inane quote about having a plan to kill everyone you meet, and considering how she was now a paraplegic because of a fight gone bad Jade took that advice with a Sodom and Gomorrah sized amount of salt, but she did see the value of always having a plan to run away and escape everyone and anyone she met. Like the Chesire Cat Jade was always ready to disappear.

The LexCorp gig was pretty nice all things considered. Sure, there was a constant sword of Damocles hanging over her head and the leash they had on her was pretty fucking tight and liable to turn into a noose if she pulled away at the wrong time but they were relatively lenient on giving her freedom to act as she pleased and it kept her family far, far away from her. All of that was a plus in Jade's book. And so, she'd played along with things as time had gone on and stayed calm and collected. She'd even made a friend in Jinx even if the other girl was a little too willing and content being some corporate princess' pet lapdog. And while Cassandra Luthor was clearly not normal, Jade refused to belong to anyone but herself. She was going to be free.

She'd not planned on running away for a good while longer, despite her basic contingencies but her hand had been forced when the alien invasion came. Jade was a realist after all and she knew full well that fighting against alien robot invaders would be dangerous and deadly, especially when she didn't have any fancy power armor to protect her and wasn't really all that important to LexCorp. And so, Jade had made the decision to cut and run for a little bit.

She'd slipped away from the various handlers and soldiers whilst fighting off robots and quickly taken stock of what her options were before coming to a decision. Unless things went completely pear-shaped, Jade couldn't run away from LexCorp on a long-term basis. She knew too much information they'd want to keep buried and as such she'd be hunted down if they didn't believe her to be dead. Jade didn't exactly have a good way to fake her own death as of now so that option was nixed.

Instead, Jade decided to hide amongst one of the civilian shelters, blending in as just some random teenaged nobody uprooted by the attack. That way she could see what the aftermath of the fight would be like without risking her own life on the frontlines in an out and out war. Jade was an assassin not a soldier and so hiding like this would maximize her own chances of survival. Then when the dust settled, Jade would likely return to LexCorp with some excuse ready to go but at the same time ready to bolt if they took her little disappearing stint personally. Still Jade was confident that this would be the best path forward and the one that would allow her to come out on top in the widest variety of scenarios.

After all, Jade was first and foremost a realist because she needed to be in order to be a survivor and her skills and judgement hadn't failed her just yet.
 
First of all, thank you for the critique - I made some of the corrections that you have suggested.
Secondly, would you say that if I were to write a Cassandra POV then capitalizing the word "father" would be appropriate?

Also, it doesn't fill me with ease that you have got nothing to say on my justice league plan :sad:

This is a weird formatting thing which I'm not sure is intentional. Is the "Cassandra knew that better than most" supposed to be part of the same paragraph? It feels kind of fragmentary right now.

This was supposed to be a full sentence, but I actually god sidetracked and forgot to complete it.
I actually forgotten what I wanted written there so I'll just delete it altogether.

might be better off as "taller and had longer reach than Cassandra".

I thought that using the word "longer" in such an abstract way is more Cassandra-like since she is a very literal individual.

This is actually one of the parts that caused the most flak for whether or not it could be considered canon or not because Cassandra and Jade were both taught by members of the League of Shadows and thus technically learned similar styles, but they do not fight very similarly in practice. An integral element of Cassandra's fighting style is that she's constantly using her body reading to know what the opponent is going to do well in advance. Like the closest I can compare it to is the fight scene with Sherlock Holmes from Game of Shadows only instead of a long sequence Cassandra is doing that every second on every move. Jade does not have this ability and thus has to fight differently.

Even if the two of them were throwing punches the exact same way (which they wouldn't be as David Cain and Lawrence Crock aren't the same and taught differently) they'd still be using their punches differently over the course of the same fight. Cassandra fights more like a precog against humans while Jade has a fighting style closer to Batman's than someone like say Lady Shiva.

That being said under the principle of charity if I assume that by "The thing was she fought a lot like Cassandra herself did, with the difference being that Cassandra was better by far in every way..." as "Jade used rote techniques and seemingly had muscle memory similar to how Cassandra had been taught but was simply incapable of building up those same elements into nearly as effective an overall fighting style" then the statement is arguably true and it can be considered canon. It might not be what you've intended but it's ambiguous enough that the interpretation I gave could be the one Cassandra actually has and therefore it does pass muster to actually be canon.

When I said "fought the same way" I meant that they relied on the same principles and use the same attributes.
It was a way to say something along the lines of "While Jade was quick, Cassandra was quicker" except that it applies to all attributes and doesn't look like a grocery list so to speak.
Maybe I should've been clearer though
 
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Ah good to know. I thought she was a perma-runner.

Do we do a "finger wagging" and tell her "inform us next time when you want to sit things out"?
 
Before design, you must have requirements. Given what Jade is, what do we want from her? What can we expect to get from her?
I was thinking of using her as bait to draw in Roy Harper as a Hero Unit in the possible future.

Since she's more of a Lone Wolf than a Team Player, I figure we apprentice her to Roxy as a Stunt woman/Prospective Action Star for Lightyear Entertainment. "She's not an Assassin! She only plays one on TV!"

No one would believe a TV Assassin is an actual assassin in Real Life right?
 
First of all, thank you for the critique - I made some of the corrections that you have suggested.
Secondly, would you say that if I were to write a Cassandra POV then capitalizing the word "father" would be appropriate?
Yeah. The one potential addendum I would make is that Cassandra solely refers to Lex in her own head as "Father" and it's a title distinct from a biological descent (Cassandra would probably refer to Lawrence Crock as "Jade's father" not problem but would only ever thing of Lex as "Father" if that makes any sense).
Also, it doesn't fill me with ease that you have got nothing to say on my justice league plan :sad:
I mean it's less I have nothing to say and more that I've nothing relevant to say. I could mention how some of the stuff Superman did was technically added in under Good Samaritan laws and how that plays into his function legally. I could try and potentially poke holes or add in complications but I don't think it's really relevant.

I try not to influence plans unnecessarily. As such a lot of the time when a plan is good/viable/functional I won't say anything about it because I don't want to point things out that the thread isn't doing and I don't want to influence things with this.

The plan might be viable in very broad strokes but it's fairly shotgun in its approach and it kind of steps on some already existing ideas/plans (the VAA says hello) so I don't know exactly what I ought to say beyond "this seems viable in the broadest of strokes". Like I don't have much I can say beyond pointing out that this is no longer a plan doomed to failure. Even in this response I'm being very careful with my language so as to attempt to influence things as little as possible.
I thought that using the word "longer" in such an abstract way is more Cassandra-like since she is a very literal individual.
The problem is that "Length" isn't really a measure used to describe a human being. The few times I have seen the phrase "human length" it refers to height. Thus, saying someone is "taller and longer" is essentially conveying the same information twice.

Cassandra is to some extent fairly literal but at the same time she's also very exacting. Using longer in such a way didn't feel like it worked to me not just because of the redundancy but also because of the inherent vagueness in the term and so I felt that more specificity as to what she was actually talking about would help communicate it better while keeping the voice more or less the same especially since the subject matter is physicality and fighting which Cassandra is an expert in.

That make sense as to why I feel this way or do you want further elaboration?
When I said "fought the same way" I meant that they relied on the same principles and use the same attributes.
It was a way to say something along the lines of "While Jade was quick, Cassandra was quicker" except that it applies to all attributes and doesn't look like a grocery list so to speak.
Maybe I should've been clearer though
I mean it's fine as is so there's no need to change it.

My general point above is that Jade and Cassandra don't rely on the same principles and use the same attributes in a fight. Cassandra's entire style is focused around the body-reading pseudo-precog bullshit that Cassandra can do but Jade can't. This in turn has a lot of implications that would lead to them fighting on different principles and using different attributes.

Cassandra's not winning because she's physically superior to Jade in a fight (the weight difference alone would put Cassandra several weight divisions below Jade in a boxing match and while a fight is not a boxing match those elements remain relevant). Cassandra is winning because the abilities she has, which Jade does not, basically make all of Jade's advantages irrelevant (Jade's superior reach is nullified by every attack being telegraphed to Cassandra before she makes it, Jade's superior strength is irrelevant due to not being able to hit Cassandra, whatever difference in speed there might be is negated by the fact that it takes way longer for Jade to react to anything Cass does than the reverse etc.).

Does that make sense or do you want me to elaborate on it more?
Ah good to know. I thought she was a perma-runner.
Jade generally is a perma-runner but in this case she came to the conclusion that running away permanently now might actually get her killed because she knows too much. On top of that she doesn't hate LexCorp (even if she doesn't want to be chained down to them on general principle) and wasn't planning on leaving them so much as she wanted to run away from the battle. Her plans/behavior isn't as smart or rational as she plays it off as (Jade is a dumb teenager making dumb teenager decisions and then occasionally retroactively justifying it and I think it's pretty clear that her "plans" could blow up in her face in a million different ways).

Edit: Additionally the other reason Jade has not to try and permanently run away now would be simply that she has nowhere to go now. Running away from LexCorp during the battle is more likely to lead her towards Brainiac's forces if she tries to permanently escape, thus defeating the point of running away meaning that Jade kind of needs to stay in Metropolis no matter what for the duration of Brainiac's attack unless she wants to risk her life even more than she would sticking with LexCorp.
 
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I mean it's less I have nothing to say and more that I've nothing relevant to say. I could mention how some of the stuff Superman did was technically added in under Good Samaritan laws and how that plays into his function legally. I could try and potentially poke holes or add in complications but I don't think it's really relevant.

I try not to influence plans unnecessarily. As such a lot of the time when a plan is good/viable/functional I won't say anything about it because I don't want to point things out that the thread isn't doing and I don't want to influence things with this.

The plan might be viable in very broad strokes but it's fairly shotgun in its approach and it kind of steps on some already existing ideas/plans (the VAA says hello) so I don't know exactly what I ought to say beyond "this seems viable in the broadest of strokes". Like I don't have much I can say beyond pointing out that this is no longer a plan doomed to failure. Even in this response I'm being very careful with my language so as to attempt to influence things as little as possible.

It's just that when the QM outright dislikes a plan and then says nothing it comes across as "Oh, if you wanna screw yourself that badly then who am I to try and stop you?"
All the same, I do understand what you are trying to say here.

The problem is that "Length" isn't really a measure used to describe a human being. The few times I have seen the phrase "human length" it refers to height. Thus, saying someone is "taller and longer" is essentially conveying the same information twice.

Cassandra is to some extent fairly literal but at the same time she's also very exacting. Using longer in such a way didn't feel like it worked to me not just because of the redundancy but also because of the inherent vagueness in the term and so I felt that more specificity as to what she was actually talking about would help communicate it better while keeping the voice more or less the same especially since the subject matter is physicality and fighting which Cassandra is an expert in.

That make sense as to why I feel this way or do you want further elaboration?

When writing this I didn't really view it as a redundancy but rather as emphasis (though both are the same), as if to say "she is taller and thus has all of the inherent attributes that come with it", kind of like saying "Big and strong" in a way, or maybe more accurately as a rhetorical device of sorts.

I do understand what you are saying though, perhaps being more specific here would've been the better choice.
In my native language these sorts of descriptions are fairly common

I mean it's fine as is so there's no need to change it.

My general point above is that Jade and Cassandra don't rely on the same principles and use the same attributes in a fight. Cassandra's entire style is focused around the body-reading pseudo-precog bullshit that Cassandra can do but Jade can't. This in turn has a lot of implications that would lead to them fighting on different principles and using different attributes.

Cassandra's not winning because she's physically superior to Jade in a fight (the weight difference alone would put Cassandra several weight divisions below Jade in a boxing match and while a fight is not a boxing match those elements remain relevant). Cassandra is winning because the abilities she has, which Jade does not, basically make all of Jade's advantages irrelevant (Jade's superior reach is nullified by every attack being telegraphed to Cassandra before she makes it, Jade's superior strength is irrelevant due to not being able to hit Cassandra, whatever difference in speed there might be is negated by the fact that it takes way longer for Jade to react to anything Cass does than the reverse etc.).

Does that make sense or do you want me to elaborate on it more?

I should've probably put more emphasis on Cassandra's body reading ability, but the crux of the matter is that she was using these attributes to take advantage of Jade.
The words "agile" and "quick" here aren't as interchangeable as I would've assumed at first.

This is a whole other analysis that I didn't want to get into since it'd ruin the flow of the story, but maybe I could've (maybe even should've) gone into more detail.

What I was trying to convey is:

1) Cassandra had a better sense of positioning, in the sense that she could "visualize" Jade's reach and body position, both in terms of how it is and how it will be in the future in reaction to Cassandra's moves (a sub-skill from her precog, if you would)
2) Cassandra had better balance, meaning that she had more control over her attacks (for example, she could throw a punch and return to a neutral position faster without a risk of overextending our throwing her center of mass too forward even in high speeds, which would increase her recovery time)
3) Cassandra had a better sense of momentum (she could read through feints more easily and knew how to time counter punches/kicks and trows better)

The idea was that Jade has more reach, which would normally mean that there is much less risk for her to overextend, and weighs more, which would allow her to produce powerful strikes (relatively to Cassandra) without having to really "lean into it", making her form naturally more compact since she doesn't have to force herself to go in harder against a foe with superior weight and reach, and thus she can pace herself better, conserve her stamina and wait for Cassandra to try and come to her (since she has shorter reach and thus has no choice) and would endure hits much more easily due to her superior weight.

Yet despite all of these, Cassandra was *somehow* manipulating her into overreaching and overextending (even when she reasonably absolutely shouldn't) and then using this forward momentum for counter strikes and powerful throws, in effect allowing her to hit harder than Jade could despite being much smaller.

This is meant to show the gap between them - Cassandra was easily able to reverse the supposed roles in this fight and absolutely destroy Jade without putting any effort into it whatsoever, as evident by the fact that her thoughts were busy with other things even as she was wrecking Jade's shit.

They fought the same way in the sense that they had the same basic understandings regarding the things that I mentioned and would use them as the main components in this particular encounter, with the difference being the gap between them.

Does this make sense?


P.S: Just so that we are clear, Cassandra would 100% destroy Robin in a fight, right? Also, what happens with Jinx's tutor now? Could we assign him to Cassandra for some extra help? Jinx is technically still 16 and would probably need additional schooling all the same, though I'm not sure how viable it is given our next actions.
 
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It's just that when the QM outright dislikes a plan and then says nothing it comes across as "Oh, if you wanna screw yourself that badly then who am I to try and stop you?"
All the same, I do understand what you are trying to say here.
I mean I did kind of point out that I misunderstood what you were trying to get at before I dipped out of the conversation. I apologize if what I did made you feel unnecessarily uneasy. That being said oftentimes when I'm commenting on a plan with an issue it's less because I dislike it or think it's bad but more because I think it's missing some potentially important context that would affect how it might or might not work.
When writing this I didn't really view it as a redundancy but rather as emphasis (though both are the same), as if to say "she is taller and thus has all of the inherent attributes that come with it", kind of like saying "Big and strong" in a way, or maybe more accurately as a rhetorical device of sorts.

I do understand what you are saying though, perhaps being more specific here would've been the better choice.
In my native language these sorts of descriptions are fairly common
Ah that is interesting to note. I actually had no idea you were not a native English speaker so I was critiquing it under the assumption that you were. If you don't mind my asking what is your native language?

In English there are a lot of redundant words due to the language being a nightmare frankenstein's hodgepodge of other languages (off the top of my head "Hotel" and "Hostel" are words that have identical meanings if not identical connotations with the only difference being one was stolen from French and the other from German). As such there are words which when strong together are repetitive. We'll say something like "big and strong" which is two similar words but each has their own discreet and distinct meaning (a big person can not be strong and a strong person can not be big) but we won't ever say something like "big and large" which are two actually redundant words. It's not always clear cut and as always you can break this rule if you are doing so intentionally (for example if you want to show a character with a clear fixation on someone you can have them describe an individual with multiple redundant words for beautiful) but it is something to keep in mind. The best litmus test I can give for how to determine if words are redundant is to see if the object being described could be one thing and not the other.

The issue was less the specificity of the language used so much as it was the unintentional redundancy. Saying Jade was "taller and wider" than Cassandra would still be a little weird (mostly just due to width not being something people normally observe) but it would be better than "taller and longer" since it's not communicating the same information twice. That being said it's quite likely that this is an example of idiomatic construction not being 1 to 1 across other languages.
I should've probably put more emphasis on Cassandra's body reading ability, but the crux of the matter is that she was using these attributes to take advantage of Jade.
The words "agile" and "quick" here aren't as interchangeable as I would've assumed at first.

This is a whole other analysis that I didn't want to get into since it'd ruin the flow of the story, but maybe I could've (maybe even should've) gone into more detail.

What I was trying to convey is:

1) Cassandra had a better sense of positioning, in the sense that she could "visualize" Jade's reach and body position, both in terms of how it is and how it will be in the future in reaction to Cassandra's moves (a sub-skill from her precog, if you would)
2) Cassandra had better balance, meaning that she had more control over her attacks (for example, she could throw a punch and return to a neutral position faster without a risk of overextending our throwing her center of mass too forward even in high speeds, which would increase her recovery time)
3) Cassandra had a better sense of momentum (she could read through feints more easily and knew how to time counter punches/kicks and trows better)

The idea was that Jade has more reach, which would normally mean that there is much less risk for her to overextend, and weighs more, which would allow her to produce powerful strikes (relatively to Cassandra) without having to really "lean into it", making her form naturally more compact since she doesn't have to force herself to go in harder against a foe with superior weight and reach, and thus she can pace herself better, conserve her stamina and wait for Cassandra to try and come to her (since she has shorter reach and thus has no choice) and would endure hits much more easily due to her superior weight.

Yet despite all of these, Cassandra was *somehow* manipulating her into overreaching and overextending (even when she reasonably absolutely shouldn't) and then using this forward momentum for counter strikes and powerful throws, in effect allowing her to hit harder than Jade could despite being much smaller.

This is meant to show the gap between them - Cassandra was easily able to reverse the supposed roles in this fight and absolutely destroy Jade without putting any effort into it whatsoever, as evident by the fact that her thoughts were busy with other things even as she was wrecking Jade's shit.

They fought the same way in the sense that they had the same basic understandings regarding the things that I mentioned and would use them as the main components in this particular encounter, with the difference being the gap between them.

Does this make sense?
The overall analysis makes sense as to what you are trying to convey. I don't think you need to change anything because of it. That being said a more accurate representation of what you were trying to convey would not be that they "fought the same way" and more that "the two of them had the same general understanding of how they fight would go if they both performed optimally". I'd argue that even then that's not really the case (Jade's background being trained as an assassin first and a martial artist second means that almost all of her fighting knowledge is viewed through that lens which alters some of the strategies she can and cannot use amongst other things) but the general point is valid. If I understood you correctly what you are saying though is not "that they fought the same way" (their physical actions and strategies were the same) but that "they understood the fight same way".

Did I unintentionally misrepresent something or would you say that's a fair analysis of what you were trying to convey?
P.S: Just so that we are clear, Cassandra would 100% destroy Robin in a fight, right? Also, what happens with Jinx's tutor now? Could we assign him to Cassandra for some extra help? Jinx is technically still 16 and would probably need additional schooling all the same, though I'm not sure how viable it is given our next actions.
I may have mentioned this earlier but unless the parameter of the fight is clearly defined I cannot give a clear answer to this. In a white-room, fair martial arts battle with no tool use, Cassandra wrecks Robin (she probably even beats Batman in a fight like that). However, once you start introducing environmental hazards, uneven terrain, darkness and cover, weapon and tools to use, alternate win conditions and more, all of which would be present in a real non-hypothetical fight then things become a lot more complex. For example, if Robin has a communicator that could let some other superhero track him then that alters the entire dynamic of the fight as it potentially puts Cass on a clock and might mean she has to take on more than one opponent at a time.

That being said generally speaking a fight between Robin and Cassandra is comparable to a fight between Batman and Lady Shiva and in a straight fight, Shiva almost always wins unless Batman starts getting fancy with the tech (the one fight they had in quest that I can remember off the top of my head had Lady Shiva break Batman's arm and force him to run away).

As for Hebert Winston (Jinx's tutor) you will no longer be able to assign him to Jinx's actions to help once the child special actions are gone. This is primarily a mechanical decision and not a narrative one so there are some discrepancies between those two elements. You will be able to shuffle him to do something else though if he doesn't remain fixated on his daughter being gone.
 
I mean I did kind of point out that I misunderstood what you were trying to get at before I dipped out of the conversation. I apologize if what I did made you feel unnecessarily uneasy. That being said oftentimes when I'm commenting on a plan with an issue it's less because I dislike it or think it's bad but more because I think it's missing some potentially important context that would affect how it might or might not work.

That's my fault for taking things out of context then.

Ah that is interesting to note. I actually had no idea you were not a native English speaker so I was critiquing it under the assumption that you were. If you don't mind my asking what is your native language?

In English there are a lot of redundant words due to the language being a nightmare frankenstein's hodgepodge of other languages (off the top of my head "Hotel" and "Hostel" are words that have identical meanings if not identical connotations with the only difference being one was stolen from French and the other from German). As such there are words which when strong together are repetitive. We'll say something like "big and strong" which is two similar words but each has their own discreet and distinct meaning (a big person can not be strong and a strong person can not be big) but we won't ever say something like "big and large" which are two actually redundant words. It's not always clear cut and as always you can break this rule if you are doing so intentionally (for example if you want to show a character with a clear fixation on someone you can have them describe an individual with multiple redundant words for beautiful) but it is something to keep in mind. The best litmus test I can give for how to determine if words are redundant is to see if the object being described could be one thing and not the other.

The issue was less the specificity of the language used so much as it was the unintentional redundancy. Saying Jade was "taller and wider" than Cassandra would still be a little weird (mostly just due to width not being something people normally observe) but it would be better than "taller and longer" since it's not communicating the same information twice. That being said it's quite likely that this is an example of idiomatic construction not being 1 to 1 across other languages.

I don't think that a different assumption would've merited different criticism. Things are what they are after all.
Regardless, I grew up speaking Russian and German, and in both languages using synonyms in tandem is meant for emphasis, kind of like epizeuxes in English.
Maybe it's not an assumption I should've made though.

With "big and strong" I was assuming that big people are inherently stronger than smaller people when all things are equal, but by emphasizing that a person is both big and strong you are saying that even for their large size (which would merit some assumption of strength) this person is strong.

Although to be fair, this isn't quite what I had going with Jade - Being taller than Cassandra would normally imply that she had longer limbs, though that too isn't necessarily the case (it is when all other things are equal), but if that's not the message that was conveyed then that's probably on me.

I'll be sure to keep it in mind.

The overall analysis makes sense as to what you are trying to convey. I don't think you need to change anything because of it. That being said a more accurate representation of what you were trying to convey would not be that they "fought the same way" and more that "the two of them had the same general understanding of how they fight would go if they both performed optimally". I'd argue that even then that's not really the case (Jade's background being trained as an assassin first and a martial artist second means that almost all of her fighting knowledge is viewed through that lens which alters some of the strategies she can and cannot use amongst other things) but the general point is valid. If I understood you correctly what you are saying though is not "that they fought the same way" (their physical actions and strategies were the same) but that "they understood the fight same way".

Did I unintentionally misrepresent something or would you say that's a fair analysis of what you were trying to convey?

Maybe a bit.

It isn't necessarily that they understood the fight the same way (though they did, from a strictly fundamental point of view) but rather that they both assumed that they could leverage the same core skills against the other since they each assumed an advantageous position in them.
From a strictly analytical point of view Jade would probably be right, but it is ultimately Cassandra that would be proven correct in practice despite what analysis would suggest.

I understand that it's an implication within an implication, but I didn't want to go into the specifics of the fight because it's not really the point and me just providing fictional combat analysis would break the "show not tell' rule a bit too much imo.
What I wanted to convey is Cassandra's warped approach to a seemingly casual, childish comment and how everything escalated from there, so while I had the fight in my head I felt that leaning too much into it would detract from the important things.

I may have mentioned this earlier but unless the parameter of the fight is clearly defined I cannot give a clear answer to this. In a white-room, fair martial arts battle with no tool use, Cassandra wrecks Robin (she probably even beats Batman in a fight like that). However, once you start introducing environmental hazards, uneven terrain, darkness and cover, weapon and tools to use, alternate win conditions and more, all of which would be present in a real non-hypothetical fight then things become a lot more complex. For example, if Robin has a communicator that could let some other superhero track him then that alters the entire dynamic of the fight as it potentially puts Cass on a clock and might mean she has to take on more than one opponent at a time.

That being said generally speaking a fight between Robin and Cassandra is comparable to a fight between Batman and Lady Shiva and in a straight fight, Shiva almost always wins unless Batman starts getting fancy with the tech (the one fight they had in quest that I can remember off the top of my head had Lady Shiva break Batman's arm and force him to run away).

I only asked this to verify that our kid is better than Batman's kid.
Not that it's really surprising - Cassandra is the best after all :V
 
I only asked this to verify that our kid is better than Batman's kid.
Not that it's really surprising - Cassandra is the best after all :V
Honestly, it's almost not fair to compare your kid to Batman's kid. Batman's kid is being trained to go up against a superstitious and cowardly lot (who generally have no superpowers). Cassandra is being trained to take on people like Superman, Metallo, Parasite, General Zod and Lois Lane. Clearly if you want a better benchmark for Cassandra's development you should compare her to someone like Billy Batson, a child empowered by multiple gods. Otherwise, it almost feels a little mean how much better Cassandra is at stuff.

Edit: This is a joke in case that wasn't clear from the tone.
 
Honestly, it's almost not fair to compare your kid to Batman's kid. Batman's kid is being trained to go up against a superstitious and cowardly lot (who generally have no superpowers). Cassandra is being trained to take on people like Superman, Metallo, Parasite, General Zod and Lois Lane. Clearly if you want a better benchmark for Cassandra's development you should compare her to someone like Billy Batson, a child empowered by multiple gods. Otherwise, it almost feels a little mean how much better Cassandra is at stuff.

Edit: This is a joke in case that wasn't clear from the tone.

You might be joking but the parallels between Luthor & Superman and Cassandra & Captain Marvel are kind of scary.
With Cassandra's drive knowledge that she is the best and Billy being Billy, well, the plotline just writes itself.

And I mean, Luthor *does* want for Cassandra to continue his legacy, though I can't imagine that this is what he had in mind.

Rejected. Joke accepted as serious in-character answer.

Heck, even if Dick was slightly better at fighting than Cass, Bruce isn't going to be trusting him with Wayne Enterprises any time soon. Cass is a more holistic supervillain.

He probably isn't as smart either.

...Or as adorable
 
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Rejected. Joke accepted as serious in-character answer.

Heck, even if Dick was slightly better at fighting than Cass, Bruce isn't going to be trusting him with Wayne Enterprises any time soon. Cass is a more holistic supervillain.
Of course Bruce wouldnt teach someone everything he knows. Then he might be replaced as the Saviour of Gotham.
 
Honestly, it's almost not fair to compare your kid to Batman's kid. Batman's kid is being trained to go up against a superstitious and cowardly lot (who generally have no superpowers). Cassandra is being trained to take on people like Superman, Metallo, Parasite, General Zod and Lois Lane. Clearly if you want a better benchmark for Cassandra's development you should compare her to someone like Billy Batson, a child empowered by multiple gods. Otherwise, it almost feels a little mean how much better Cassandra is at stuff.

Edit: This is a joke in case that wasn't clear from the tone.

Also, I mean, Karate Kid does exist.
Maybe Cass can go to the future with a time machine and he might share with her some of his broccoli and chicken breast protein shakes so that she can get some of them Peak Humangains and return real swole and spank Billy like the little kid that he is.
 
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Hey guys. I'm almost done with the update but I want to polish a few more things before getting it out to you guys. I don't want to keep promising dates I don't deliver on but it is coming soon. It'll be out before the end of the month at the very least. Sorry for all of the delays. That being said I've got a big curveball being revealed in this update so I've been rewriting and restructuring things so as to make sure that the impact is delivered well and I think what I've got is good. I look forward to seeing the reactions once I do get it completed.
Heck, even if Dick was slightly better at fighting than Cass, Bruce isn't going to be trusting him with Wayne Enterprises any time soon. Cass is a more holistic supervillain.
I get that this is a joke but it's less that Bruce doesn't trust him with Wayne Enterprises and more that Dick doesn't want to run Wayne Enterprises.

Dick's young now so he's still growing into it but he's the guy who ended up leading the Teen Titans, the Outsiders, the Network, the Titans, Young Justice (in the animated continuity) and was Batman for a bit. He's not incapable of leadership when he has to, he just tends not to want to.

Cass would still be a more holistic individual due to simply beating him out in brains but leadership is actually the one area where Dick traditionally is the strongest in.
You might be joking but the parallels between Luthor & Superman and Cassandra & Captain Marvel are kind of scary.
With Cassandra's drive knowledge that she is the best and Billy being Billy, well, the plotline just writes itself.

And I mean, Luthor *does* want for Cassandra to continue his legacy, though I can't imagine that this is what he had in mind.
I mean on the one hand I get where you're coming from, and I could see it happening but on the other hand in total seriousness I think that the hero that Cassandra most effectively acts as a nemesis to is Conner Kent/Superboy.

They're both products of someone attempting to design an individual before they were born, they both carry on the legacy of a powerful figure in Metropolis and most interestingly Connor is biologically tied to Lex but rejects any connection to him while Cassandra has no blood ties to him and instead embraces her connection with Lex whole heartedly.
Of course Bruce wouldnt teach someone everything he knows. Then he might be replaced as the Saviour of Gotham.
Let's not diminish the time that Dick literally more or less replaced Bruce Wayne as Batman and did so effectively. Just because comic book writers like to ignore that period of time doesn't mean I will, and I think Dick deserves props for that achievement.
Also, I mean, Karate Kid does exist.
Fair warning, a highly modified version of Karate Kid might exist if he does at all. If he does exist though he's definitely not a human, definitely not from the future and definitely not somebody who any normal human could imitate.
 
***

I mean on the one hand I get where you're coming from, and I could see it happening but on the other hand in total seriousness I think that the hero that Cassandra most effectively acts as a nemesis to is Conner Kent/Superboy.

They're both products of someone attempting to design an individual before they were born, they both carry on the legacy of a powerful figure in Metropolis and most interestingly Connor is biologically tied to Lex but rejects any connection to him while Cassandra has no blood ties to him and instead embraces her connection with Lex whole heartedly.

***

Fair warning, a highly modified version of Karate Kid might exist if he does at all. If he does exist though he's definitely not a human, definitely not from the future and definitely not somebody who any normal human could imitate.

Well, that might be true in canon, but is there any particular reason for Conner to dislike us? Or more accurately, any reason for us to not just take him in as a part of our family?

**

I was being sarcastic and expected nothing else.
 
I feel the point of karate kid was to show that humans can keep up with supers. Batman isn't really a good example due to the power of money and the League uses tricks. I think karate kid is supposed to be someone a normal kid reading the comics looks up to. If he's changed then he might as well not exist.
 
90's Superboy as a teen wearing leather jacket and riding a bike is a product of the 90s anti-hero influence IIRC.

Part of the reason why I want Lobo to be the other gene-donor is to give him a real deadbeat dad to angst about instead of us.
 
Let's not diminish the time that Dick literally more or less replaced Bruce Wayne as Batman and did so effectively. Just because comic book writers like to ignore that period of time doesn't mean I will, and I think Dick deserves props for that achievement.
I was being disingenuous in the spirit of the Quest, Batman may not be our nemesis, but i will still give him shit.
 
I feel the point of karate kid was to show that humans can keep up with supers. Batman isn't really a good example due to the power of money and the League uses tricks. I think karate kid is supposed to be someone a normal kid reading the comics looks up to. If he's changed then he might as well not exist.
I mean Karate Kid is even less of a "normal" than Batman is. Ignoring the fact that some iterations of Karate Kid are straight up from Lythyl and not earth (two people have held the name), Karate Kid incorporates a Legion Flight ring into his repertoire, is from the future and has a bizarre slightly racist background for coming from future Japan (He became a Samurai for his karate skills, worked for his local shogunate for a bit before going to space and apparently dying in combat was a part of his culture). He's not normal at all for the expected audience. Also considering how Karate Kid was pretty regularly shown to be useless against individuals with abilities I don't think he's a go to example for a "normal human" keeping up with supers (in my opinion the best character for that is Steel. DC has done nothing but shaft him as of late but Steel is a guy who built a suit that can go toe to toe with Superman in a straight fight. In my opinion he's basically DC's Iron Man and it's a shame he's kind of been dropped as of late in my opinion).

I will say that my own version of Karate Kid is a hybrid of the two versions (he has the name and general backstory of the first Karate Kid but is from Lythyl like the second). Furthermore I figured that it would be more interesting to update him to be a "Samurai Jack-esque" character rather than trying to keep him relatable or normal. Keep in mind that this is just my opinion but for me the reason to include Karate Kid is to introduce conflicts and discrepancies in the backgrounds and cultures of the members of the Legion of Superheroes rather than to have him act as an audience surrogate of sorts.
I was being disingenuous in the spirit of the Quest, Batman may not be our nemesis, but i will still give him shit.
Yeah, I got that. I figured you were joking but considering a lot of actual comic writers seem to not get that the worst Miller-isms are not integral to Batman's character I figured it would be best to toss in a counter to this so that nobody took it seriously.

I honestly think the better thing to give Batman shit over is how many evil Batman knock-offs there (Wrath, Prometheus, Azrael Batman, the Three Ghosts of Batman, Jason Todd's Batman, Joker's Batman, Die Grosshorn Eule, Hugo Strange, Charles Nigaff, Tommy Carma and more all had a stint as an evil "Batman" to some degree or another). Most other heroes have maybe one or two, Batman has enough evil knock-offs that they could easily start their own baseball team and have plenty leftover to act as subs.
 
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