Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
[X]Back Kosygin: An avoidance of using our assets properly will be more conciliatory towards the Chinese, but it will almost certainly lead to the same exact sacrifices in time, stinking of dovishness in response to a crisis. Backing up Kosygin personally however would be a significant concession in the formation of a new government with the factional results in the supreme soviet. Giving Kosygin a diplomatic "victory" in his own terms can even generate significant positive political results by making the bastard choke on his own pacifism when it all goes wrong.

[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission: Rather than risking funding on a frankly dangerous trip to the moon, admitting financial incompatibility and the significant inherent risk of the program. A refocus of the general space program can be made to a heavy orbital mission as a prelude and to build experience with manned operations outside of LEO. An effectively month-long scientific tour of the moon from orbit along with significant instrumentation can be flown on current hardware without much risk or issue. The American capsule program in theory may be able to achieve it first, but a same-year launch will be politically sufficient. (Project Cost 10 RpT) (Surrenders Moon Race)
 
[X]Back Kosygin: An avoidance of using our assets properly will be more conciliatory towards the Chinese, but it will almost certainly lead to the same exact sacrifices in time, stinking of dovishness in response to a crisis. Backing up Kosygin personally however would be a significant concession in the formation of a new government with the factional results in the supreme soviet. Giving Kosygin a diplomatic "victory" in his own terms can even generate significant positive political results by making the bastard choke on his own pacifism when it all goes wrong.

[X]Organize Alternative Proposals: Glushko has convinced himself that any problem can be solved with a sufficient application of funding while Yangel is a defeatist on the topic of Soviet engineering. Koralev has been busy with his health, but can still be compelled to bring in a more viable proposal and Chelomei is still functional. Glushko himself will not be happy with a committee on designing the moon mission being formed or that his idealized hardware may not fly, but his ego comes second to soviet progress. (Canceled Project, New Design by Consensus available)
 
Ehh still not sure on the vote, going by vibes.
[X]Back Kosygin
[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission

Sides that, I noticed something interesting about our road plans:
Finalization of the last few arterial routes in the Belorussian SSR has brought in a number of technical challenges in expanding paved constructions. The poor ground has posed significant issues towards the construction of much of the road network, as significant amounts of new terrain have needed construction to enable a smooth progression of vehicles. These efforts are not expected to get significantly easier, but the continuous drive toward improving logistical systems is not expected to end. Once the major routes are completed, the ministry itself is divided on directions, as some have advocated for the paving of local roads while others have called for the expansion of already overloaded arterial routes. The neglect of the last decades in road construction has already significantly impacted the economy, and further massive construction is necessary to even approach a reasonable standard.

I hope we'll get to have some influence on this division, and that the "paving of local roads" faction wins out. Rushing to expand arterial routes more sounds rather like Just One More Lane Bro (though it could just mean further replacement of two-lane intercity roads with more four-laners). But factories not being able to transport goods and raw materials because the local unpaved gravel roads keep breaking their trucks is the entire reason we got a road-bulding fire lit under us in the first place, so that seems like the much more important task.
 
I hope we'll get to have some influence on this division, and that the "paving of local roads" faction wins out. Rushing to expand arterial routes more sounds rather like Just One More Lane Bro (though it could just mean further replacement of two-lane intercity roads with more four-laners). But factories not being able to transport goods and raw materials because the local unpaved gravel roads keep breaking their trucks is the entire reason we got a road-bulding fire lit under us in the first place, so that seems like the much more important task.
The arterials are orders of magnitude more important than small local roads, mostly since the price of paving a single 4-lane road(assuming double and ignoring benefits from having a logistics corridor while paving if going 2->4) is practically an order of magnitude larger. A truck that moves a good from a plant into a warehouse for 200km would typically transit it all on gravel, but instead, if you pave the arterial it becomes a case of 20km on gravel, 175km on paved, and 5km on gravel. For the same cost as having paved a bunch of smaller roads that see none of the output, with an arterial serving a far larger number of enterprises or businesses. Both are in very high demand to be paved, but the arterials will come first just because they offer the fastest benefits and your road system is horrifically shit.
 
The arterials are orders of magnitude more important than small local roads, mostly since the price of paving a single 4-lane road(assuming double and ignoring benefits from having a logistics corridor while paving if going 2->4) is practically an order of magnitude larger. A truck that moves a good from a plant into a warehouse for 200km would typically transit it all on gravel, but instead, if you pave the arterial it becomes a case of 20km on gravel, 175km on paved, and 5km on gravel. For the same cost as having paved a bunch of smaller roads that see none of the output, with an arterial serving a far larger number of enterprises or businesses. Both are in very high demand to be paved, but the arterials will come first just because they offer the fastest benefits and your road system is horrifically shit.
Oh OK so even in the case of expanding arterial routes we'd mostly be paving more roads that were gravel previously, rather than widening existing paved roads? If that's the case than I feel much better about that option.
 
Oh OK so even in the case of expanding arterial routes we'd mostly be paving more roads that were gravel previously, rather than widening existing paved roads? If that's the case than I feel much better about that option.
Your approximately 5k-10k of progress "behind" a reasonable road-based logistics network to supplement your rail and enable competitiveness depending on where you draw the line. You going to pave them first because it's the greatest gains, but there is a strong consensus that it all needs to get paved at a minimum along with actually constructing networks in rural areas to ensure that trucks can move goods to tables. Roads have been systematically ignored for the longest time and to an extent the political counter-swing is starting especially as truck production goes up, especially since your big pile of US import cab-overs cannot traverse a large number of your routes and domestic trucks tend to lower capacity outside the most modern ones, mostly because they all have to be off road-hardened. You don't have the old leadership cadre that is incredibly train-obsessed and raised in the early 1900's you instead have the people actually stuck making your logistics networks work.
 
Your approximately 5k-10k of progress "behind" a reasonable road-based logistics network to supplement your rail and enable competitiveness depending on where you draw the line. You going to pave them first because it's the greatest gains, but there is a strong consensus that it all needs to get paved at a minimum along with actually constructing networks in rural areas to ensure that trucks can move goods to tables. Roads have been systematically ignored for the longest time and to an extent the political counter-swing is starting especially as truck production goes up, especially since your big pile of US import cab-overs cannot traverse a large number of your routes and domestic trucks tend to lower capacity outside the most modern ones, mostly because they all have to be off road-hardened. You don't have the old leadership cadre that is incredibly train-obsessed and raised in the early 1900's you instead have the people actually stuck making your logistics networks work.
It's statements like this that make me realize considering what we had to start with, we've been doing a damn fine job modernizing Russia.

Yeah, we've had to spend a lot of time fixing power and water and roads, but hey, that's what the Tzars left us with.
 
Cannon Omake: Stalin's quest for Gold
Here's a new omake named "Stalin's quest for Gold". I hope you will like it. Could you threadmark it @Blackstar ? Thanks in advance :)

Although the Soviet Union had to contend with the most part of the Axis military war effort on its territory, the extraordinary war effort it demonstrated did not rest on its own strength. In fact, like other members of the Allies, such as Great Britain and Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist China, the homeland of socialism benefited from American largesse through the Lend-Lease program, which authorized the President of the United States to "sell, assign, exchange, lease, or otherwise provide" any defense materiel to any government "whose defense the President considers vital to the defense of the United States". Between 1941 and 1944, this aid amounted to $12.3 billion for the Soviet Union.

However, this aid was not synonymous with free gifts since the value of the equipment delivered had to be repaid after the Second World War. Although the Soviet Union could have refused to repay these debts, this option was not chosen, since, according to the many opinions expressed by Gosplan economists, taking such an initiative would have meant economic isolation from the leading economic power of the time and its allies: a situation that would certainly have called into question for a long time to come the search for external outlets for the Soviet economy that had been pursued since the second half of the 1930s.

Once the choice of repayment had been made, MNKh was faced with several repayment schedules that varied the speed of repayment: three, five or eight years. To repay the leasing debts as quickly as possible, the three-year option was selected with Stalin's approval. This option had the advantage of freeing the Union from the burden of this debt as quickly as possible, so that It could then devote itself more fully to rebuilding the Soviet lands devastated by the war. What's more, this timetable would also stabilize the ruble in the longer term, since the money supply in circulation was backed by the amount of gold held by the Gosbank - the Soviet Union's central bank - in its vaults.

In order to achieve its ambition of repaying the Lend-Lease debt to the USA within three years, the Soviet Union, and more specifically the central coordinating and planning body of the Soviet economy, the MNKh, had to make a considerable industrial effort to extract the gold needed to fulfill this ambition.

After a phase of geological studies aimed at identifying the most suitable gold deposits to fulfill this mission, several sites were selected. The first site selected was the Olimpiada deposit in the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, in the Yenisei chain in the Krasnoyarsk krai of Siberia. The other gold mining site was Muruntau in the Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic. Excavation work for these two open-cast mines began in June 1944. It's important to note, however, that excavation of the precious golden metal was not immediate, as the creation of several mining complexes ex nihilo first required extensive infrastructure construction work, both in terms of housing for the workforce and the logistics involved in transporting the precious metal off-site.

It's worth noting that, although these major infrastructure projects always relied on forced labor, this episode of mining development - unlike the pre-war period, when the labor force was Soviet - relied to a large extent on the use of German prisoners of war as war reparations. Nevertheless, after the war, the use of the abundant German POW labor force was not a Soviet exception, since all the victorious European nations that had to suffer damages from Nazi Germany had extensive recourse to this labor force for reconstruction or clearance work. In the Soviet case, this recourse to German labor took the form of several dozen ULAG divisions assigned to this frantic quest for gold. Those German workers who survived the harsh Siberian working conditions would gradually return to their homeland from the early 1950s onwards.

However, it would be a mistake to believe that this mining project was simply a matter of throwing forced, unprotected labor into the fires of the extractivist industry, like an offering to Moloch or Mammon. In contrast to the forced industrialization decided by Stalin in the early 1930s, this workforce, and the Soviet workforce too, benefited from tools and protection in their work to achieve the objectives by the mean to make the workforce more productive as quickly as possible, whether by increasing the rate of extraction or limiting workforce turnover (by reducing the number of frostbite cases or accidents, for example).

From the moment it was launched in the second half of 1944, this race for gold captivated Soviet population in the same way as the first five-year plans. Indeed, after the difficult years of war, the Soviet population was able to rally behind a great collective mobilizing project involving all classes of Soviet society and promising the Soviet people, once accomplished, to settle the accounts of the war and turn their gaze towards the radiant future promised by the Soviet system.

All these industrial and human efforts were not in vain, as the Soviet Union achieved its goal of repaying the amounts due under the lend-lease in full by the set deadline, i.e. by 1947 at the latest. Nevertheless, Stalin was never able to see this work through to completion, as he died just a few months before this goal was achieved, and it was his successor Anastasios Mikoyan who was able to take satisfaction in the work accomplished, considering the vaults full of gold ingots at the Gosbank and the new existence of two gigantic gold-mining complexes that would continue to render many services to the Soviet Union in the decades to come.

Excerpts from Stalin's quest for Gold, Paisley Roberts, 1987
 
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I hope we'll get to have some influence on this division, and that the "paving of local roads" faction wins out. Rushing to expand arterial routes more sounds rather like Just One More Lane Bro (though it could just mean further replacement of two-lane intercity roads with more four-laners).
I'm sorry, I know this has been addressed, but comments like this are very much The Problem.

People are so caught up in 21st century American Suburb brain that they reflexively back-project any statement about the realities of the 1965-era USSR in the game onto a 21st century American suburb-encrusted cityscape. People are hearing "we need to expand and pave major roads" and thinking "ahah, that must mean widening the already-over-wide eight lane freeways tearing our inner cities apart and connecting them up to masses of cookie-cutter suburbs in a futile attempt to build your way out of traffic jams!"

But it doesn't mean any such thing! Because those suburbs do not exist and probably never will exist, nor do those freeways, nor do those traffic jams! If we have traffic jams it's usually going to be because a truck broke down and skidded and is now blocking both lanes (as in, each way) of a gravel road and now nobody can get past because even the road itself was barely manageable in the mud.

There is, in simple objective fact, a need for roads, and a need for roads that are wide enough to permit vehicles to pass each other at speed, including four and occasionally six-lane highways. This is simply not something it is practical for us to eliminate or escape. We are in no danger, any time soon, realistically not for decades, of coming close to a level of road overbuilding where the kind of excess that "Just One More Lane Bro" rightly mocks. There will be ample in-story evidence that we are approaching a point where road overbuilding is a problem, if and when it becomes a problem.

And until that time comes, honestly I think it would be best if for the foreseeable future we let this brainbug die a merciful death. We need to stop being so goddamn paranoid about roads. Our fears are rooted in an entire economic and physical infrastructure that does not exist in the game we are playing in, and we have created/perpetuated massive economic problems for the Soviet Union in-game by allowing these fears to control our actions.

But factories not being able to transport goods and raw materials because the local unpaved gravel roads keep breaking their trucks is the entire reason we got a road-bulding fire lit under us in the first place, so that seems like the much more important task.
Let's review some vocabulary.

A controlled-access highway ("freeway," "motorway," etc.) is a massive purpose-built road that does not serve the immediate land directly next to its right-of-way, and that avoids having any level crossings with other roads, rails, or pathways. This is done with dividing barriers, onramp/offramp architecture, and other distinctive features seen on this type of highway across the world. This permits motor vehicles to travel at or near their top practical speed over long distances without a constant need for hazardous and fuel-inefficient stops and starts. This is to roads what dedicated high-speed passenger rail lines are to trains, and I'm pretty sure we have very few controlled-access highways in the Soviet Union. Now, I imagine that some of the work that went into the recent 700-point Western USSR High-Capacity Roads project included this, but I suspect a lot just went into building up better arterial roads, see below.

An arterial road is a major road that might, might colloquially be called a "highway" in English if it is big enough and carries fast enough traffic, but which is distinguished from controlled-access highways. Arterial roads have level crossings, typically controlled by signal infrastructure or roundabouts, and will typically service enterprises and other developments directly at the roadside. However, it is not designed solely or primarily for this purpose; a lot of the traffic passing any given point on an arterial road is "just passing through" and will not stop at or anywhere near the point you're standing at. Importantly, this definition applies both to major urban roads and to many rural highways.

My impression is that the typical Soviet major road, of any kind, anywhere in the Union, anything that is plausibly likely to be paved and has even been considered for four-lane pavement, would qualify as an "arterial road." We simply don't have a large enough network of purpose-built controlled-access highways to take the place of all the Soviet roads that are equivalent to, say, "US 1" in the United States, roads that are in large part improved and linked up from roadways that have existed since the 1800s and that double as the "Main Street" of many of the towns they pass through.

The vast majority of vehicle-miles on the road system, especailly when you discount traffic shuffling for very short distances within a community on "last-mile" matters, is going to be on the arterial roads. This reality informs Blackstar's observation that many of the truck problems we have, caused by the need to drive scores or hundreds of kilometers on gravel roads, are precisely the kind of problem we cannot solve without paving arterial roads.
 
And until that time comes, honestly I think it would be best if for the foreseeable future we let this brainbug die a merciful death. We need to stop being so goddamn paranoid about roads. Our fears are rooted in an entire economic and physical infrastructure that does not exist in the game we are playing in, and we have created/perpetuated massive economic problems for the Soviet Union in-game by allowing these fears to control our actions.
Fundamentally, the problem is that cars are far more convenient than any other transportation option, but also require a disproportionate amount of infrastructure to support them as their numbers grow. Trucks for small-distance transportation is good, roads and cars in rural areas are good, but trying to support heavy car usage for general civilian transportation in urban areas is incredibly expensive.

I'd say that almost any time we'd be hitting 6 lanes is the time we need to be looking into encouraging alternatives more. However, yes, we have many areas without even a basic paved 2 lane road. We are definitely way behind where we'd like to be in roads... and also pretty far behind in every infra project that isn't rail. Even housing is still off from where we'd prefer, though it's at least close enough to no longer be on fire like our water and road infra.
 
I'm starting to feel that the road network of each region should just be consolidated into a single several-thousand progress megaproject like passenger rail which would make the sheer scale of the problem clear. Right now we finish a 700 progress stage and are tempted to pat ourselves for accomplishing a major stride when no, we really haven't.

There is, in simple objective fact, a need for roads, and a need for roads that are wide enough to permit vehicles to pass each other at speed, including four and occasionally six-lane highways. This is simply not something it is practical for us to eliminate or escape. We are in no danger, any time soon, realistically not for decades, of coming close to a level of road overbuilding where the kind of excess that "Just One More Lane Bro" rightly mocks. There will be ample in-story evidence that we are approaching a point where road overbuilding is a problem, if and when it becomes a problem.
I accept that we have a need for roads, and I realize I made some incorrect assumptions in my initial comments. But prey tell me, what sort of "ample evidence" would we be seeing if/when we do reach the point of overbuilding becoming an issue? I figure that as traffic builds we'll just get an "can we haz more 8 lane roads please" project on our docket described as if they were a natural progression, and if we're lucky there will be another rail project or whatever than mentions being an alternative solution.

As for your presentation on terminology of highways vs arteries, it was informative but I don't see what it had to do with the part of my post you quoted?
 
I don't actually read any of the thread (except the quest itself of course). However I got to say that we literally have gravel roads in some major areas. I don't at all understand this apparent brainbug, there is simple and needed roads and there is American over building. This is holding our economy and logistics back heavily for some unfounded fear that we will end up with America's road hell scape. That simply will not happen, because it is literally impossible with how underdeveloped our roads are now. Also the fact that we will probably be told if we are over doing it.
 
I don't actually read any of the thread (except the quest itself of course). However I got to say that we literally have gravel roads in some major areas. I don't at all understand this apparent brainbug, there is simple and needed roads and there is American over building. This is holding our economy and logistics back heavily for some unfounded fear that we will end up with America's road hell scape. That simply will not happen, because it is literally impossible with how underdeveloped our roads are now. Also the fact that we will probably be told if we are over doing it.
We didn't get told we were overdoing rails until the damage was already done. We also didn't get told just how bad the road situation was until the last few turns. In general if we made bad decisions we're not told how much we screwed up for a while.
 
We didn't get told we were overdoing rails until the damage was already done. We also didn't get told just how bad the road situation was until the last few turns. In general if we made bad decisions we're not told how much we screwed up for a while.
blame me for not reading any of the thread i suppose. But the QM has literally said "you need 5-10 Thousand points to fix this" So invest that and fix the problem, if you are so worried over what i consider unfounded reasons, then under do it. only invest around 6000 points to get the bare minimum needed to fix this and then experience that problem all over again later down the line.

No matter what this problem needs to be fixed. If we do nothing about it then it will only get worse and worse.

Edit: i just checked. they are not even all paved, seriously how bad is this lol
 
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Fundamentally, the problem is that cars are far more convenient than any other transportation option, but also require a disproportionate amount of infrastructure to support them as their numbers grow. Trucks for small-distance transportation is good, roads and cars in rural areas are good, but trying to support heavy car usage for general civilian transportation in urban areas is incredibly expensive.
Yes, but we are still very much in the territory where heavy car usage as the main means of civilian transportation isn't on the radar. We have invested heavily in bus and metro rail/subway systems, and as the institution that would have to foot the bill for any massive teardowns of neighborhoods to make room for urban superhighways, we're probably not going to be paying for that in the foreseeable future.

We spend so much time and energy angsting over how bad "too many roads/cars" could get that frankly, it's starting to feel almost as silly as the old famous joke about caveman science fiction:


We just aren't in a place where the angst belongs or fits or makes sense. Much as a caveman isn't going to somehow split the world in half by making a sharper rock, we're not going to create toxic car-culture urban wastelands by completing the next generation of road projects.

I'd say that almost any time we'd be hitting 6 lanes is the time we need to be looking into encouraging alternatives more.
I'm inclined to agree in broad with specific exceptions. I don't have a problem with six-lane roads showing up in a few kilometers here, a few kilometers there, and maybe along some of the most critical sets of controlled access highways to have, the ones that serve functions a railroad cannot economically duplicate, such as urban ring roads.

I'm starting to feel that the road network of each region should just be consolidated into a single several-thousand progress megaproject like passenger rail which would make the sheer scale of the problem clear. Right now we finish a 700 progress stage and are tempted to pat ourselves for accomplishing a major stride when no, we really haven't.
It's a stride; it's just not the journey.

I accept that we have a need for roads, and I realize I made some incorrect assumptions in my initial comments. But prey tell me, what sort of "ample evidence" would we be seeing if/when we do reach the point of overbuilding becoming an issue? I figure that as traffic builds we'll just get an "can we haz more 8 lane roads please" project on our docket described as if they were a natural progression, and if we're lucky there will be another rail project or whatever than mentions being an alternative solution.
Just the basic description of the road projects themselves, and of any associated projects or renovations or whatever, will be clues and cues as to exactly what kind of construction is being talked about. And Blackstar has never been shy about explaining what, materially, a project entails.

We're not in any realistic danger of getting to the place where we're tearing down valuable urban center land just to pave it over with parking lots, or mindlessly trying to widen and re-widen our superhighways because we "have to" accommodate ridiculous numbers of car commuters rushing into urban centers on the least efficient form of transit plausible. We're just not there, and literally every time we look or ask at the evidence we get more and more feedback on how we're not there, and the idea that we could somehow sleepwalk into being there is just fucking laughable.

As for your presentation on terminology of highways vs arteries, it was informative but I don't see what it had to do with the part of my post you quoted?
Because I think the fundamental misunderstanding that led to your post was that you heard "arterial roads" and presented an objection that seemed grounded only in the specific impracticalities of widening major suburban commuter roads. You spoke in favor of paving "local roads," in such a way that it suggested you were mentally classifying "local" versus "arterial" versus "controlled access" roads improperly.

This, in turn, led to you being in a position where Blackstar needed to point out that in a 200-km truck trip, the truck is probably driving on "arterial" roads 80-90% of the way there, and thus that paving these roads is indeed going to be the highest priority.

"Arterial roads" include a very large number of the roads that we would absolutely be relying on in all parts of the country, including many transit routes that simply cannot be economically replaced with a railroad line for a variety of reasons.

We didn't get told we were overdoing rails until the damage was already done. We also didn't get told just how bad the road situation was until the last few turns. In general if we made bad decisions we're not told how much we screwed up for a while.
I think we could have figured this out if we hadn't started from the same position of road-hostility and road-negativity that we still see reflected in the commentary even now.

It's not like it's a secret that the roads in the 1920s USSR were bad, after all. Indeed, that was famously a problem for the invading Germans during Barbarossa, as we even commented on in the quest while the Nazis were invading! And the blurbs describing road construction in the past haven't given us reason to think we were building giant superhighways or anything.

We could have seen this coming, except that something was blinding us. Ahem. Ahem.
 
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