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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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It has been brought to my attention that Electric Steel and my plan may not be valid because they possibly don't account for the -290R that the automatic power plants would charge us this turn. @notgreat I just took your plan and made some edits that came out to net 0 change on the budget, I didn't actually go through and add it all up, does your original plan math account for that? If not I'm gonna have to do a deeper overhaul.
 
Information: Infraction Issued in Error
  • Staff Post
    • infraction issued in error
    Miho Chan said:
    rule 2: don't be hateful

    Supporting the Purges of any group of people is against the Rules of Sufficient Velocity. As such, User Ultrackius has been removed from the thread for One Week.
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    This infraction was issued in error upon further reflection, apologies for the confusion, everyone.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Crazycryodude said:
    Uh that might be why you want dams but I'm purely here for the electricity. There is zero way around coal being the backbone of our grid power for at least the next like 25 years and probably longer unless we get a few key nat 100's on nuclear power developments. Hydro is a very useful supplement but we just inherently cannot build it fast enough to keep up with exponentially rising power demands that characterize modern economies in the second half of the 20th century. Embrace the smog, it's 1955 and "tons of coal burned" maps pretty directly to economic growth, it's an unavoidable fact of.... not even history, just thermodynamics. It's the only feasible way to get enough energy pumped into our system on a short enough timescale to keep up with the exponential curve of the next 50 years.

    The choice isn't coal or hydro, it's coal or not having enough cheap energy to keep up with the capitalists' economic growth. Sure it turns the climate and lung cancer rates into hostages of a Prisoners' Dilemma, but that's Great Power geopolitics for you.
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    I wonder, when are we expecting nuclear to come online based on average dice rolls?
     
    [X] Powering the Virgin Lands with Fair Employment

    Putting an approval vote our there for that plan, they're certainly pretty good. But I still am nervous about taking Heavy Industry that slow, so I've made my own plan. Well, two: One with and one without the fair employment bureau. Dropped two dam dice so I'm only starting Bratsk and Kazakh, and dropped a dice from roads which allowed me to put two dice into high-energy animal feeds. Little more efficiency there.

    Also for my plans I deducted the 290 resources from the total in the spreadsheet, to better keep track of things.
    [X] Plan Squeezing Blood From Coal
    -[X]Heavy Commitment (-3 HI, 290R)
    -[X]2105/2110 Resources (295 Reserve), 41 Dice Rolled
    Infrastructure (10/10 Dice, 655 R)
    -[X]Updated Second Generation Housing(Stage 1), 2 Dice (120 R)
    -[X]Construction of the Paved Road Network(Stage 4), 1 Dice (60 R)
    -[X]Airport Construction Efforts(Stage 1), 1 Dice (50 R)
    -[X]Rural Electrification Campaign(Stage 5), 2 Dice (150 R)
    -[X]Linkage of the Unified Grid(Stage 5), 1 Dice (75 R)
    -[X]Telecommunications Infrastructure(Stage 1), 1 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]Kazakhstan Dam Systems(Ablaketka+Serebryansk+Shulbinsk), 1 Dice (40 R)
    -[X]Bratsk Dam, 1 Dice (40 R)
    Heavy Industry (6/3 Dice, 480 R)
    -[X]Novokuznetsk Steel Mill Construction, 3 Dice (300 R)
    -[X]Kuznetsk Basin Coal Mines(Stage 6), 1 Dice (60 R)
    -[X]Udokan MMK(Stage 1), 1 Dice (60 R)
    -[X]Pacific Shipyards, 1 Dice (60 R)
    Rocketry (0/4 Dice, 0 R)
    Light and Chemical Industry (5/6 Dice, 290 R)
    -[X]Centralized Gas Pipeline Construction(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
    -[X]Pesticide Production Plants(Stage 2), 2 Dice (120 R)
    -[X]Fertilizer Plants(Stage 3), 2 Dice (120 R)
    Agriculture (7/6 Dice, 340 R)
    -[X]Expansions of Factory Farming(Stage 5), 2 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]Rural Modernization Programs(Stage 1), 1 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]High Energy Animal Feed Initiatives, 2 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]Start Preparations for Virgin Land Settlement, 2 Dice (100 R)
    Services (10/10 Dice, 340 R)
    -[X]Child-Care Systems(Stage 2), 1 Dice (30 R)
    -[X]Academies for the Arts(Stage 1), 4 Dice (160 R)
    -[X]Economics Institutes(Stage 1), 3 Dice (90 R)
    -[X]Expanding the Movie Theater System, 2 Dice (60 R)
    Bureaucracy (3/3 Dice, 0 R)
    -[X]Service Cost Optimizations, 1 Dice
    -[X]State Crop and Livestock Insurance, 1 Dice
    -[X]Personally Invested Pensions, 1 Dice


    [X] Plan Squeezing Blood From Coal, Fairly
    -[X]Heavy Commitment (-3 HI, 290R)
    -[X]2105/2110 Resources (295 Reserve), 42 Dice Rolled
    Infrastructure (10/10 Dice, 655 R)
    -[X]Updated Second Generation Housing(Stage 1), 2 Dice (120 R)
    -[X]Construction of the Paved Road Network(Stage 4), 1 Dice (60 R)
    -[X]Airport Construction Efforts(Stage 1), 1 Dice (50 R)
    -[X]Rural Electrification Campaign(Stage 5), 2 Dice (150 R)
    -[X]Linkage of the Unified Grid(Stage 5), 1 Dice (75 R)
    -[X]Telecommunications Infrastructure(Stage 1), 1 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]Kazakhstan Dam Systems(Ablaketka+Serebryansk+Shulbinsk), 1 Dice (40 R)
    -[X]Bratsk Dam, 1 Dice (40 R)
    Heavy Industry (6/3 Dice, 480 R)
    -[X]Novokuznetsk Steel Mill Construction, 3 Dice (300 R)
    -[X]Kuznetsk Basin Coal Mines(Stage 6), 1 Dice (60 R)
    -[X]Udokan MMK(Stage 1), 1 Dice (60 R)
    -[X]Pacific Shipyards, 1 Dice (60 R)
    Rocketry (0/4 Dice, 0 R)
    Light and Chemical Industry (5/6 Dice, 290 R)
    -[X]Centralized Gas Pipeline Construction(Stage 2), 1 Dice (50 R)
    -[X]Pesticide Production Plants(Stage 2), 2 Dice (120 R)
    -[X]Fertilizer Plants(Stage 3), 2 Dice (120 R)
    Agriculture (7/6 Dice, 340 R)
    -[X]Expansions of Factory Farming(Stage 5), 2 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]Rural Modernization Programs(Stage 1), 1 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]High Energy Animal Feed Initiatives, 2 Dice (80 R)
    -[X]Start Preparations for Virgin Land Settlement, 2 Dice (100 R)
    Services (10/10 Dice, 340 R)
    -[X]Child-Care Systems(Stage 2), 1 Dice (30 R)
    -[X]Academies for the Arts(Stage 1), 4 Dice (160 R)
    -[X]Economics Institutes(Stage 1), 3 Dice (90 R)
    -[X]Expanding the Movie Theater System, 2 Dice (60 R)
    Bureaucracy (4/3 Dice, 0 R)
    -[X]Service Cost Optimizations, 1 Dice
    -[X]State Crop and Livestock Insurance, 1 Dice
    -[X]Personally Invested Pensions, 1 Dice
    -[X]Form the Fair Employment Practice Bureau, 1 Dice
     
    Last edited:
    c.j. said:
    I wonder, when are we expecting nuclear to come online based on average dice rolls?
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    Somewhere in the 1970's is where it becomes practical as more than a single-digit percentage of our grid mix, the 80's is when it can maybe become a plurality if we push it super hard, but honestly the 90's/00's for a large fraction of our grid being nuclear is a more reasonable target based on middling investment. If we pour the max money into it possible every time we get a chance it can be sped up but a lot of the bottlenecks on nuclear power are materials science and other stuff that you just can't speed up past a certain point. The lead time is measured in decades no matter what we do.


    Edit: To avoid doubleposting, I'm putting this in an edit. Just FYI everyone I checked the math on my plans and the 290R for power plants is accounted for, as well as discovering that I actually have 30R still left over. Anybody have any ideas on what to spend an extra 30R on? Otherwise I'm just banking it for next turn.
     
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    Crazycryodude said:
    Edit: To avoid doubleposting, I'm putting this in an edit. Just FYI everyone I checked the math on my plans and the 290R for power plants is accounted for, as well as discovering that I actually have 30R still left over. Anybody have any ideas on what to spend an extra 30R on? Otherwise I'm just banking it for next turn.
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    You're using all the free dice in the first version of your plan and everything in Infra costs at least 40 R. With that in mind, I'm going to recommend Yeraliyev.

    It's not uber-important that we get it done right now, but it's the only thing that costs 30 R we can do and I think is worth at least slow-rolling out if we have the R to spend and can't do anything else with it.
     
    EternalStruggle said:
    You're using all the free dice in the first version of your plan and everything in Infra costs at least 40 R. With that in mind, I'm going to recommend Yeraliyev.

    It's not uber-important that we get it done right now, but it's the only thing that costs 30 R we can do and I think is worth at least slow-rolling out if we have the R to spend and can't do anything else with it.
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    If we want to spend it on rocketry I'd still bank it to put towards Moscow next turn, tbh. Yeraliyev's current facilities are sufficient for at least the Sputnik program if I'm reading it correctly, and saving up to push our electronics industry/improve the guidance and control systems will do more for the space program than pouring a concrete pad or two that they don't really need. The stuff Moscow makes can go in the Sputnik sats right away, extra facilities at Yeraliyev aren't useful until we start trying to chuck Yuri into space I think.
     
    Crazycryodude said:
    It has been brought to my attention that Electric Steel and my plan may not be valid because they possibly don't account for the -290R that the automatic power plants would charge us this turn. @notgreat I just took your plan and made some edits that came out to net 0 change on the budget, I didn't actually go through and add it all up, does your original plan math account for that? If not I'm gonna have to do a deeper overhaul.
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    I set up my plan with 3 dice+300R on coal plants for a total cost of 2410, and then manually edited to account for the discount/split. If my cost is wrong it could be a spreadsheet error- I had to update the steel extra cost to kick in at 6, but there could be something else I'm forgetting or miscoded.

    Crazycryodude said:
    1. Changing the dice allocation on the dams.
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    I don't think we can afford to get more than 2 or at most 3 dams this plan (assuming we go heavy commitment. If we go moderate commitment then we need a TON of dams to make up for the lost power). Since this plan has us falling behind on infra quite a bit (9 dice), we'll need all our dice available for main infra once we remove the steel malus whereas if we're in the middle of building 4 different dams we've got some problems. Sayanogorsk is only funded for 1 more turn after all. At the very least I'd recommend going down to 3 dams at once.

    That being said, since you are going for virgin lands, the Kazakh dams become far more important and definitely worth going for. I don't think it's worth doing that agri, but I don't have much evidence for that stance so could be easily convinced.
    3. Please stop trying to do sociology academies before the second half of 1956.
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    I have done a minor rework of my service plan which reduces sociology to 1 dice. I originally had it in there because I wanted the 20-cost dice and didn't want more sports, but on further thought retail is probably worth getting.
     
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    Crazycryodude said:
    If we want to spend it on rocketry I'd still bank it to put towards Moscow next turn, tbh. Yeraliyev's current facilities are sufficient for at least the Sputnik program if I'm reading it correctly, and saving up to push our electronics industry/improve the guidance and control systems will do more for the space program than pouring a concrete pad or two that they don't really need. The stuff Moscow makes can go in the Sputnik sats right away, extra facilities at Yeraliyev aren't useful until we start trying to chuck Yuri into space I think.
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    Blackstar said:
    []Yeraliyev Cosmodrome(Stage 3): While the current rocket systems are fully supported by the current pads present at the cosmodrome, a further expansion in both control infrastructure and transportation infrastructure can be initiated. This would enable rockets to be launched with a greater degree of observation and coordination while also lowering overall program costs to an extent if a large rocketry program is initiated. Overall though, the largest change will be the construction of several pads, enabling launches to be timed with a far greater degree of regularity by eliminating the need to rapidly prepare pads. (30 Resources per Dice 63/250)
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    It seems like, while not necessary, the next cosmodrome stage may help lessen delays...
     
    Crazycryodude said:
    Uh that might be why you want dams but I'm purely here for the electricity. There is zero way around coal being the backbone of our grid power for at least the next like 25 years and probably longer unless we get a few key nat 100's on nuclear power developments. Hydro is a very useful supplement but we just inherently cannot build it fast enough to keep up with exponentially rising power demands that characterize modern economies in the second half of the 20th century. Embrace the smog, it's 1955 and "tons of coal burned" maps pretty directly to economic growth, it's an unavoidable fact of.... not even history, just thermodynamics. It's the only feasible way to get enough energy pumped into our system on a short enough timescale to keep up with the exponential curve of the next 50 years.

    The choice isn't coal or hydro, it's coal or not having enough cheap energy to keep up with the capitalists' economic growth. Sure it turns the climate and lung cancer rates into hostages of a Prisoners' Dilemma, but that's Great Power geopolitics for you.
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    This, basically.

    I'm definitely in favour of building all the dams, but we have to be realistic: it's just NOT possible to grow stronger and richer without coal and smog.

    Hydro is good, as it's both relatively cheap AND, while NOT cheaper than coal in the short term, it DOES NOT consume coal, which means that in the long term it basically give us free energy once we've recovered the starting investment.

    In the meantime we have to acknowledge the truth: We can't STOP pollution, but we can remove the worst offenders... in this case, the oldest coal plants. We can do that in the fastest and most efficient way by taking the 3 dice option for coal, and the worst case is that we end up this 5 year plan with a bit of an electricity surplus, which we can probably find ways to use or trade away anyway.

    the MOMENT we get more nuclear, wind, solar and geothermal options I'll certainly be interested in them and strongly consider them, especially as, with a strong central authority, we can basically order each and every building in the whole union to come equipped with solar panels and the most cost-efficient thermal isolation tech, and take advantage of the economies of scale...but we're not there yet, and even then solar without good energy stocking solutions (not only batteries, but also things like pumped hydro and weirder methods) is just another palliative and not an active solution.

    Crazycryodude said:
    -[X]Bureaucracy (3/3 Dice, 0 R)
    --[X]Service Cost Optimizations, 1 Dice
    --[X]State Crop and Livestock Insurance, 1 Dice
    --[X]Personally Invested Pensions, 1 Dice
    --[X]Form the Fair Employment Practice Bureau, 1 Dice
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    isn't this one more dice than what we have? ignore this, I found the difference in agriculture, my bad
     
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    notgreat said:
    I have done a minor rework of my service plan which reduces sociology to 1 dice. I originally had it in there because I wanted the 20-cost dice and didn't want more sports, but on further thought retail is probably worth getting.
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    I Would still rather hold off completely until next turn. If you can't find anything else to spend the resources on than sociology better to bank them for next turn IMO.
     
    [X] Powering the Virgin Lands

    I see fair employment bureau as politically expensive too much for what it actually accomplishes. On more important Crazycryodude vs Urist plan competition, former works around our temporary maluses a bit better and takes better dams and agri.
     
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