Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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But prey tell me, what sort of "ample evidence" would we be seeing if/when we do reach the point of overbuilding becoming an issue? I figure that as traffic builds we'll just get an "can we haz more 8 lane roads please" project on our docket described as if they were a natural progression, and if we're lucky there will be another rail project or whatever than mentions being an alternative solution.
To answer your good faith question: We don't know this for certain. But there is an upper threshold when we are notified. Overdoing certain projects leads to the follow up branches being tagged as pork, but underinvestment is still a legitimate concern. On the other hand, I'm also more confident in the Soviet Union avoiding car-centric cities due to the economic ministry taking an holistic view of economic activity, which includes the question: How do we optimize for travel time to work with minimal costs? Liberal systems don't have a department of "The Economy", but split finances, infrastructure and industry across several government ministries. I think the soviets will be more able to get induced demand and realize that their are easier solutions to traffic than "build an additional lane".

There is no certainty. The quest is an exercise in trying to account for bias and false information. But eventually, our road network will pass from insufficient to barely adequate to alright and our blurbs will reflect this. Once our status updates on roads no longer lament the barely adequate road system, we can reconsider how much we need.
 
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[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission

Overdoing certain projects leads to the follow up branches being tagged as pork, but underinvestment is still a legitimate concern.
I don't disagree in general, but I don't think that's how the Pork Project label works - IIRC it just means something is politically popular, with no bearing on whether it's useful/overdone. For example, water distribution used to be listed as Pork and we've been consistently behind in it.
 
[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission


I don't disagree in general, but I don't think that's how the Pork Project label works - IIRC it just means something is politically popular, with no bearing on whether it's useful/overdone. For example, water distribution used to be listed as Pork and we've been consistently behind in it.
I think you are wrong on this. Pork is derived from pork barreling, which describes political concessions who are locally beneficial, but have no real benefit nationwide.
In regards to water distribution being tagged as pork, was that the rural ones near the beginning of Voz term? I remember him considering those useless before changing his mind after seeing their positive impact.
 
I think you are wrong on this. Pork is derived from pork barreling, which describes political concessions who are locally beneficial, but have no real benefit nationwide.
This isn't about etymology, and also it's an oversimplification of what "pork barrelling" really is.

A lot of local infrastructure projects are or can be "pork" within the context of legislative democracy, simply because the immediate benefits are concentrated in a single place. That doesn't mean the project has no real benefit to the system as a whole, and it absolutely doesn't mean that the aggregate of all the projects has no benefit to the system as a whole. Every new bridge is "pork" in the sense that mostly benefits the people who live close to that particular river and want to cross it regularly, but that doesn't mean that funding a nationwide program of "build more bridges" is wasteful spending for the country as a whole. Because everyone needs a slice of that pork, even if no one slice can be fed to every person at the same time.

...

Indeed, measures nominally taken to limit "pork-barrel politics" in the United States have arguably damaged the overall health of US infrastructure over the past thirty years. Nowadays, it's harder for legislators to get infrastructure improvements or even basic maintenance done in their districts. It shifts the legislature's incentives very firmly away from "get things built that you can take credit for with your constituents" to "cut the budget so you can tell your constituents that you've lowered taxes and eliminated waste." And then those same voters wonder twenty years later why the rickety old bridges haven't been replaced.

[One can argue that this was an intentional move by Gingrich's generation of GOP leadership, who were specifically trying to remake the system with themselves in charge of an intensely polarized "small government" party whose members could not be 'bought' by the promise of actually getting things done in their own districts for their own voters, thus over time leaving those voters less and less disposed to vote for government initiatives, and more and more disposed to blame culture war topics for the economic malaise they mysteriously wind up suffering.]

In regards to water distribution being tagged as pork, was that the rural ones near the beginning of Voz term? I remember him considering those useless before changing his mind after seeing their positive impact.
Let's look at the list of projects that were labeled "Pork" in late 1960.

Moscow and Leningrad Renovations: These projects clearly have localized benefits, but we've seen that the cities in question had genuine problems caused by aging or obsolete infrastructure, such as traffic jams blocking the roads right outside where the Supreme Soviet meets because the road wasn't wide enough for cars to pass a bus that had stopped in front of the building. Kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

Secondary City Metro Lines Stage 5: Again, benefits are localized, but it wouldn't be reasonable to claim that having proper mass transit in Kazan, Chelyabinsk, and Odessa is worthless or not beneficial. I was hesitant to complete the project at the time, granted, but that was because there was a lot else to do.

Consumable Product Initiatives Stage 1: This is an obvious example of a project that is "pork" because it's very popular with the legislature as a whole, but which clearly impacts most if not all Soviet citizens... in a way they would appreciate and like! It's politically popular because it's actually popular, and while the USSR is not really a democracy, it's got enough democratic elements that occasionally the Supreme Soviet emerges from indulging its heavy industry fetish and recognizes that making people happy by giving them access to new and better consumer goods is important.

Television Production Plants Stage 3: Here, you can argue that this is more of a pure luxury good, yes. But it's a luxury good for the masses, and it's one that is available across much of the Union once the increased access to televisions spreads. Here, too, we see that a project is labeled "pork" because it is highly popular, not because it is something the Supreme Soviet is effectively paying political capital to bribe us into doing despite being inefficient and irrelevant to the general interests and wishes of the public.

I could check some other years, but I'm on a bit of a time crunch. I expect, though, that you'll see the same things. The projects labeled "pork" may not always be exactly the things we think are most important, but very often they're important for reasons that will help a lot of people, or at least make a lot of people happy. Something steel mills and power plants and oil refineries do not do, or at least do not do directly.
 
This isn't about etymology, and also it's an oversimplification of what "pork barrelling" really is
Fair point regarding the oversimplification. To make more correct argument: Pork projects can be to some degree beneficial in general, but their effect is thought to be localized or limited in scope. I think it's probably fair to regard pork infrastructure as lower on the priority list than the ones that aren't tagged pork, due to more urgent infrastructure problems being rarely confined to a specific geographic area or segment of population.
Let's look at the list of projects that were labeled "Pork" in late 1960.
This on the other hand is just not relevant to the conversation. Yes, projects are sometimes mistakingly regarded as pork. I was discussing infra pork, specifically water distribution.
 
"Pork" tag on a project is the shorthand way of saying "this buys you political capital", the same way things would have "+5 Party Support" back during the Stalin era. I wouldn't read too much into it beyond that, the project stat blocks are already huge and politics is more complex than keeping one single dude happy now, so instead of saying "funding the Odessa metro will make Supreme Soviet delegates from the Ukrainian SSR support you more" it just gets labeled "pork" and we're left to fill in the blanks.
 
This on the other hand is just not relevant to the conversation. Yes, projects are sometimes mistakingly regarded as pork. I was discussing infra pork, specifically water distribution.
What I said back there was very relevant to the conversation, because of what Cryo said.

"Pork" is shorthand for "will specifically win us political support, more so than other actions in the same category, enough so that Voz can roughly anticipate such a benefit."

WHY any given action wins political support is going to vary wildly. It may be because the action will specifically benefit some members of the Supreme Soviet who will now fiercely support us because we just threw countless of millions of rubles and a decade-long largely superfluous subway construction contract to the enterprise that belongs to their nephew. On the other hand, it may be because the action is so massively popular that the general public will be disproportionately likely to vote for anyone who can get their name attached to the "victory" of there being more televisions and comfortable underwear in stores. Or it could be just about any damn thing.

The part you're putting in where "pork" means "probably not objectively all that useful, unless Voz is just making a mistake" is entirely a result of you oversimplifying the system and projecting extra rules onto it.
 
as the institution that would have to foot the bill for any massive teardowns of neighborhoods to make room for urban superhighways, we're probably not going to be paying for that in the foreseeable future.
I'm pretty sure we just established the basic idea of tearing down neighborhoods to make room for roads:
[]Integrate the Road Project: Accepting that large portions of Moscow will be demolished and reconstructed in the process of modernizing the city, there is no reason not to include the roads as a core element. This will allow the spaces left by old designs and layouts to be replaced by modern structures improving accessibility for mass transit and automobiles. Further adaptations to an increased urban population will take time, but expanding and re-orienting several core roads will be essential to making the capital easily navigable. (Additional 250 progress required, 200 if three or more other options are taken.) (Replaces Moscow High Capacity Road Ring)

[]Moscow High Capacity Road Ring: A four-lane combined road system for the linkages around the Union's core industrial city is important for both local development and for further initiatives toward the construction of more automotive capacity. Truck shipping is steadily becoming a larger factor of conventional enterprise and it needs to be supported to improve general economic throughput. The current plan calls for the construction of a number of rings of high capacity unlimited speed roads around Moscow with interlinks built into them along with links to the broader urban network. Expansions might eventually be necessary, but for now, the proposal should be sufficient for a decade. (60 Resources per Dice 0/300)
Now, yes, having 4-lane roads here is certainly worthwhile, but we've set the precedent.

To be clear though, our current roads infra is at the "on fire" stage and needs to be fixed, same as how our rail was on fire before we went crazy and overbuilt it... and then as that was finishing up we had the rocketry/rail nat 1 which politically pushed us to overbuild it even more.
 
I'm pretty sure we just established the basic idea of tearing down neighborhoods to make room for roads:

Now, yes, having 4-lane roads here is certainly worthwhile, but we've set the precedent.

To be clear though, our current roads infra is at the "on fire" stage and needs to be fixed, same as how our rail was on fire before we went crazy and overbuilt it... and then as that was finishing up we had the rocketry/rail nat 1 which politically pushed us to overbuild it even more.
By how much road hate there is overbuilding will never be a issue... Especially because a lot of them will go absolutely insane at the mere thought of a two Lane road of any kind existing in the Union...
 
[X]Back Malik
[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission

Yangel is better than getting stuck with a melon
 
I'm pretty sure we just established the basic idea of tearing down neighborhoods to make room for roads:

Now, yes, having 4-lane roads here is certainly worthwhile, but we've set the precedent.
A lot of the tearing-down we did, especially on the scale of "whole neighborhoods," was with the intent of replacing the buildings with other buildings.

I think that state of affairs is likely to continue.

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Also, except for a handful of cities that have prestige just from being there (Moscow, Leningrad, that's about it, maybe Kiev), it makes more sense to build new districts than to raze whole urban districts in the USSR anyway. We've already funded pretty robust commuter infrastructure because the alternative was "people literally walk to work and it takes them hours," and we just do not have remotely the economic incentives to, say, lobby the government (ourselves) on behalf of the big car producers (ourselves) to subsidize massive freeway construction and "urban development" that obliterates residential housing in the city centers (at our expense) so that we get to build enterprise offices (many of which aren't ours and aren't that profitable).

Doing it in Moscow made political sense if not practical sense, because everybody and their cousin Fredski wants offices in Moscow and the high cost/standard of living around Moscow makes it the one place in the Union where anything even remotely resembling "everyone has a car" is even vaguely sustainable for the average citizen.

But there's just not much incentive for it to happen anywhere else, I think, except maybe Leningrad. Even in Moscow, we already built up big ambitious public transit to go with the big ambitious everything else, and there weren't the characteristic high modernist "tells" to suggest that we were truly rebuilding Moscow around cars the way that, say, Brasilia got built around cars.
 
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Also, lack of road infrastructure means spring mud traps half our military in their bases. Every two bit village is one oopsie away from isolation and lacking access to emergency medical care. To give some examples.
 
I wouldn't say "isolation" per-se - we do have gravel roads and military trucks can get through the mud, though not very fast during the worst of it. But it's still pretty bad.
 
Fuck the idea of giving up on the Moon.

Unless we roll uncannily well, the "kick it to committee" option is also "giving up on the moon", since our odds of actually getting a working design in time got shot in the back of the head.

If the Americans bother to fund a semi-competent moon program, they'll beat us regardless of what we pick at this point. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens when you roll a 3.

We can wallow in denial and spend a ton of money trying to undo that, or we can just scale back our ambitions - with Yangel's proposal, we still have high odds of being the first to send a human to orbit the moon*, and we can use that experience to segue into a moon landing or even a permanent base in the 70's, if the SupSov wants to keep up the space funding in response to an American moon "victory".

There's also, of course, the possibility that the Americans don't fund the moon race, without Kennedy as a martyr pushing for it, in which case Yangel may well still lead to us being the first to land on the moon in 1978 or something.

*Specifically, because we have much less mass to need to deal with, we can use existing rockets. We won't need to design a lander, a spacesuit, an ascent stage... because of all that, it actually seems feasible to put someone in orbit around the moon in 1967, on time for the 50th anniversary of the USSR and ahead of the OTL timeline. Not quite as prestigious as a landing, but a nice bit of propaganda regardless.
 
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What was the last big "win" the American space program had over us? I don't really have a good visualization of the exact state of the space race, and I'm not certain if it's really perceived as intensely as OTL's space race was. My guess at a best-case-scenario for us is that the American's land the first man on the moon, that spurs the SuperSov into giving us more funding, and we establish the first long-term base on the moon.
 
[X]Back Malik
[X]Organize Alternative Proposals

Fuck the idea of giving up on the Moon.
Unironically people vote for Push Forward if that's the sentiment, that has higher chances of us doing a landing than throwing it to committee, which will literally have Blackstar roll 5 dice and hope all of them are very good or one rolls a nat 100 and a OKB leader decides to withdraw their design. Realistically, they will disagree, delay and sabotage each other (Glushko literally refused to design engines for the N1 because his ego was bruised, that's the level of pettiness we are running on).
 
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