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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission

Fuck the moon, what has that damn sky-orb ever given us?!

More seriously, I can't see a design-by-committee actually beating the Americans to the moon at this point, so we'd effectively still be giving up the moon race, just in denial about it.
 
Designing a rocket by committee is going to be so funny. The way i see it it is either going to be a frankenstein of good^tm ideas or if we are lucky maybe we will just end up with a bland inoffensive system that will make a try but will not be nearly ambitious enough to make work.
 
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Hianny said:
Designing a rocket by committee is going to be so funny. The way i see it it is either going to be a frankenstein of good^tm ideas or if we are lucky maybe we will just end up with a bland inoffensive system that will make a try but will not be nearly ambitious enough to make work.
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Not only I think the horribleness of the committee design is overblown - we can get a perfectly functional mission without needing to ace all the rolls or somesuch - what do we even have to lose if we try? Worst comes to worst, we commit to Yangel's plan six months later, which is honestly whatever.
 
agumentic said:
Not only I think the horribleness of the committee design is overblown - we can get a perfectly functional mission without needing to ace all the rolls or somesuch - what do we even have to lose if we try? Worst comes to worst, we commit to Yangel's plan six months later, which is honestly whatever.
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I am not saying we have to ace all our rolls but this may create internal tension and disputes in our space center and while we may somehow get a bunch of great rolls (i am not saying ace but making the 4 greatest rocket engineers collaborate on a design won't be easy) this does not mean it will even fly. It also has to be considered politically making a committee to design a moon rocket and then just deciding to cancel the rocket because we have decided it is shit and will never reach the moon will not look good. IMO it is better to just not risk it and slow the program down naturally instead of making a huge deal of it and then backtracking publicly as the rocket fails.
 
The worst case isn't just going with Yangel 6 months later, it's spending like 20-30 RpT on a committee design for years only to lose anyways because the nerds can't work together. Which is a pretty real risk if we get a mediocre but not terrible roll, at least another 3 would just be giving up but if we get like a 30 we probably see juuuuust enough promise to be stuck funding something that's not going to be ready faster than the Americans. Of course if we roll like a 90 then we probably have a real shot again, but there's a significant risk band in the sub-50 range.
 
[X]Back Malik

[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission: Rather than risking funding on a frankly dangerous trip to the moon, admitting financial incompatibility and the significant inherent risk of the program. A refocus of the general space program can be made to a heavy orbital mission as a prelude and to build experience with manned operations outside of LEO. An effectively month-long scientific tour of the moon from orbit along with significant instrumentation can be flown on current hardware without much risk or issue. The American capsule program in theory may be able to achieve it first, but a same-year launch will be politically sufficient. (Project Cost 10 RpT) (Surrenders Moon Race)

Well, next best thing after the Moon is Mars. Or getting a space station up and running.
 
Hianny said:
I am not saying we have to ace all our rolls but this may create internal tension and disputes in our space center and while we may somehow get a bunch of great rolls (i am not saying ace but making the 4 greatest rocket engineers collaborate on a design won't be easy) this does not mean it will even fly. It also has to be considered politically making a committee to design a moon rocket and then just deciding to cancel the rocket because we have decided it is shit and will never reach the moon will not look good. IMO it is better to just not risk it and slow the program down naturally instead of making a huge deal of it and then backtracking publicly as the rocket fails.
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Politically speaking, it'll be looking at different mission offers and hearing what other engineers say and then, if we dislike what they say, simply going "Okay, Yangel's proposal really is the best one". Which is a bit of an egg on our face since we could've said it earlier, I guess, but hardly much of one.
Crazycryodude said:
The worst case isn't just going with Yangel 6 months later, it's spending like 20-30 RpT on a committee design for years only to lose anyways because the nerds can't work together. Which is a pretty real risk if we get a mediocre but not terrible roll, at least another 3 would just be giving up but if we get like a 30 we probably see juuuuust enough promise to be stuck funding something that's not going to be ready faster than the Americans. Of course if we roll like a 90 then we probably have a real shot again, but there's a significant risk band in the sub-50 range.
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That sounds like an extremely easy to solve problem - simply don't accept a sub-50 proposal. Not even trying to reroll is quite popular, there really will be no difficulty in giving up if the other proposals we get are subpar. Though I guess the roll will probably be a bit more complicated than that.
 
agumentic said:
That sounds like an extremely easy to solve problem - simply don't accept a sub-50 proposal. Not even trying to reroll is quite popular, there really will be no difficulty in giving up if the other proposals we get are subpar. Though I guess the roll will probably be a bit more complicated than that.
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Kicking it to the committee necessitates (re)committing to the landing, if they come back with anything remotely feasible we're locked in to funding it. There's no second vote on whether to take the committee's recommendation, we're just automatically locked in to it, the only way Yangel's proposal happens after sending it to the committee is if the committee themselves say "ok yeah this is impossible we give up."
 
Crazycryodude said:
The worst case isn't just going with Yangel 6 months later, it's spending like 20-30 RpT on a committee design for years only to lose anyways because the nerds can't work together. Which is a pretty real risk if we get a mediocre but not terrible roll, at least another 3 would just be giving up but if we get like a 30 we probably see juuuuust enough promise to be stuck funding something that's not going to be ready faster than the Americans. Of course if we roll like a 90 then we probably have a real shot again, but there's a significant risk band in the sub-50 range.
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Our rocket scientists not being able to work together is always a pretty likely bet.
 
Crazycryodude said:
Kicking it to the committee necessitates (re)committing to the landing, if they come back with anything remotely feasible we're locked in to funding it. There's no second vote on whether to take the committee's recommendation, we're just automatically locked in to it, the only way Yangel's proposal happens after sending it to the committee is if the committee themselves say "ok yeah this is impossible we give up."
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Isn't this kind of always the case? If one wants to do any particular mission, one is going to be stuck with what ever actual proposals actually make it.

Besides if the committee makes a proposal that is actually a some what realistic plan, why wouldn't one want to execute on it? I don't think we should make perfect the enemy of good enough in projects like this really. We did aim for a project for the moon, one can at least make a good faith attempt at it I think.

[X]Organize Alternative Proposals
 
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Hianny said:
Designing a rocket by committee is going to be so funny.
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I am not sure it will be a rocket made by committee, we might end up with a competition between alternative proposals, and we pick one.

However, even if it is a rocket made by committee, that should be fine, as the components we have are already produced by different teams. The capsule and FGB is from one team, the RLA-5 is from another, the lander will be from yet another. Indeed, perhaps one of the issues with Glushko's proposal is that he wants a design that is largely bespoke Glushko work (and that we need to pay for).

And if we get a design by committee and the committee doesn't work well together, then we can go back to Yangel.

Simon_Jester said:
Our rocket scientists not being able to work together is always a pretty likely bet.
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Well, keep in mind that in this history the MNKh and before it the VSNKh managed to protect our aerospace industry from the worst of Stalin's purges, meaning Chelomei never snitched on Korolev, Korolev never spent time in a Gulag. On top of that the MNKh has pretty consistently backed Glushko - there's been nothing like Chelomei nabbing Krushchev's son and trying to use the political connection and sheer stubbornness to create a second space program to supplant first Korolev and then Glushko. Nor has there been an episode like Glushko getting frozen out of making the big rocket in favour of Kuznetsov.

We've mostly let Glushko have free reign and Yangel has only been able to make his own small rocketry empire because we decided to throw the military under the bus and blame them for our failures that one time, meaning the military needed their own separate program.

But at the same time, the sheer scale of our space program has meant that the other major designers have been kept busy. Glushko might be top dog, but there's been room for the others to get some of their dreams flying also.

I am sure that Glushko won't like it if we reject his plan and ask the junior chief designers to submit proposals, but I think we've avoided enough bad blood that I would be surprised if it turned into a knife fight in a flame trench.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Blackstar said:
State of the Seventh Five-Year Plan:
60% Increase in MFPG Production Value: At the Moving Target
20% Increase in Capital Goods Production Value: Completed
150% Increase in Consumer Goods Production Value: Completed
30% Increase in Agricultural Sector Production Value: Behind the Moving Target
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Current status of plan - We've completed the Capital and Consumer Goods targets a year ahead of plan end.
 
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