Remove ads

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
[X]Back Malik: Malik is the MFA and arguably the most experienced man when dealing with the crisis. There exists a significant opportunity for the KPI to split and make the local issue a case of Maoist excess rather than any failures of communist policymaking. Immediately backing the generals to the hilt with investment will secure significant influence in the government, stabilize the army supply chains, and provide for a continuation of basing. Ideally, Chinese influence in the state would also be significantly suppressed, providing a means towards making actual inroads with the government and acknowledging the reality on the ground for almost no cost.

I think it's easy to naturally skew towards our bias against military juntas and coups, but if we get a good decade and a half out of them (the Ethiopian Derg and Pinochet both lasted that long) we'll probably be able to make that worthwhile. If we get even longer, or can pivot from that military government without losing our influence (like the US in South Korea) so much the better.

This sort of pressure can absolutely work, and the more legitimacy and support we lend the coup de tat, the less likely Indonesia is to be bogged down in long term civil conflict between the Junta and the Maoists already moving against it. I highly doubt the maoists in Indonesia can pull back their accusations by this point (putting them would just be common sense) so they're almost certainly going to have a go- and if Beijing views us as passive in this matter; they have pretty much no incentive not to back the Maoists opposed to the coup. In a lot of ways I think the bed has already been made, and if we don't lie in it China will.
 
Last edited:
[X]Back Kosgyn
I think putting the immediate good of the department before the good of the Union as a whole might be the play here. Kos and Voz are getting thrown out at the same time anyway, so I think ensuring we have the highest chance of being at the top and getting things our way until the end is valuable.
[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission
 
My choice of vote between Yangel's mission and Alternative Proposals is decided by exactly one big thing: How official/open is this "surrender" of the Moon race? If this is The Voz privately going "well, at that slow pace we'll probably lose" for internal reports, while still openly promising the Supreme Soviet that they're Working Really Hard on getting a manned landing and we're just building necessary experience, than it's a great option. But if we're openly telling the SupSov "yeah, we've decided to give up on beating the yanks" than not only do we suffer badly politically but also we probably get the post-space race funding cut early. And I do NOT want that!
 
[X]Back Malik

Letting the US Jakarta the PKI when we can just... not let it do that is not an ideal play. We can help stabilize their country and further entrench our economic interest. Lets listen to the diplomat like we did last time.
 
[X]Back Malik: Malik is the MFA and arguably the most experienced man when dealing with the crisis. There exists a significant opportunity for the KPI to split and make the local issue a case of Maoist excess rather than any failures of communist policymaking. Immediately backing the generals to the hilt with investment will secure significant influence in the government, stabilize the army supply chains, and provide for a continuation of basing. Ideally, Chinese influence in the state would also be significantly suppressed, providing a means towards making actual inroads with the government and acknowledging the reality on the ground for almost no cost.
[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission: Rather than risking funding on a frankly dangerous trip to the moon, admitting financial incompatibility and the significant inherent risk of the program. A refocus of the general space program can be made to a heavy orbital mission as a prelude and to build experience with manned operations outside of LEO. An effectively month-long scientific tour of the moon from orbit along with significant instrumentation can be flown on current hardware without much risk or issue. The American capsule program in theory may be able to achieve it first, but a same-year launch will be politically sufficient. (Project Cost 10 RpT) (Surrenders Moon Race)
 
[X]Back Malik: Malik is the MFA and arguably the most experienced man when dealing with the crisis. There exists a significant opportunity for the KPI to split and make the local issue a case of Maoist excess rather than any failures of communist policymaking. Immediately backing the generals to the hilt with investment will secure significant influence in the government, stabilize the army supply chains, and provide for a continuation of basing. Ideally, Chinese influence in the state would also be significantly suppressed, providing a means towards making actual inroads with the government and acknowledging the reality on the ground for almost no cost.

[X]Accept Yangel's Rationalized Mission: Rather than risking funding on a frankly dangerous trip to the moon, admitting financial incompatibility and the significant inherent risk of the program. A refocus of the general space program can be made to a heavy orbital mission as a prelude and to build experience with manned operations outside of LEO. An effectively month-long scientific tour of the moon from orbit along with significant instrumentation can be flown on current hardware without much risk or issue. The American capsule program in theory may be able to achieve it first, but a same-year launch will be politically sufficient. (Project Cost 10 RpT) (Surrenders Moon Race)

[X]Organize Alternative Proposals: Glushko has convinced himself that any problem can be solved with a sufficient application of funding while Yangel is a defeatist on the topic of Soviet engineering. Koralev has been busy with his health, but can still be compelled to bring in a more viable proposal and Chelomei is still functional. Glushko himself will not be happy with a committee on designing the moon mission being formed or that his idealized hardware may not fly, but his ego comes second to soviet progress. (Canceled Project, New Design by Consensus available)
 
Crazycryodude said:
Indonesia is too big to let just slip into the American sphere, I'm not even worried about the Chinese so much as letting a Soviet-backed military in a strategic location slip into the American orbit when we could trivially just yank their leash right now before they can disentangle their economy and military supply chain from us - at that point they're gone forever. The Chinese can't afford to stop trading with us (and vice versa) so stepping on each others' forpol toes doesn't matter much to the MNKh. It's mainly an MFA problem, not an MNKh problem, so if the MFA is actively pushing for it then go ahead IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The thing is, why would Indonesia flip to the yanks if we recognize their government but don't get involved in their internal affairs? We are still the people they'd be buying their guns from.

UrWishy said:
I don't think backing Kosygin is good for us politically, while it would calm the tension from China to us it would also give the hawks more arsenal and prooobably worsen tensions between our hawks to China, thus it is just kicking the can down the road with us taking the costs.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I... Whyever would taking a soft line increase tensions.

Karugus said:
I think it's easy to naturally skew towards our bias against military juntas and coups, but if we get a good decade and a half out of them (the Ethiopian Derg and Pinochet both lasted that long) we'll probably be able to make that worthwhile. If we get even longer, or can pivot from that military government without losing our influence (like the US in South Korea) so much the better.

This sort of pressure can absolutely work, and the more legitimacy and support we lend the coup de tat, the less likely Indonesia is to be bogged down in long term civil conflict between the Junta and the Maoists already moving against it. I highly doubt the maoists in Indonesia can pull back their accusations by this point (putting them would just be common sense) so they're almost certainly going to have a go- and if Beijing views us as passive in this matter; they have pretty much no incentive not to back the Maoists opposed to the coup. In a lot of ways I think the bed has already been made, and if we don't lie in it China will.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The thing is, I don't think that the Soviets aligning with the Derg was good in the medium to long term, nor was Pinochet for the Americans. Both regimes were awful enough that there's significant numbers of people in the world (and not just inside the affected countries) who hate the superpower in question specifically because of their support. And Soviet support for the Derg seriously undermined their relations with the rest of their allies and led to the far more valuable Somalia flipping against the Soviet Union.

And you're probably right about Malik's plan leading to less violence in the short term. But it would hitch the wagon of the Soviet state and party to the Indonesian coup. And... I can't remember us having aligned so flagrantly with anti-democratic forces before in the quest (though I am sure there's plenty of skeletons left over from the establishment of our European allies from formerly Fascist or Fascist occupied territory - I don't remember that being done in as brazen a way or with as much backlash as the establishment of the Eastern Block involved in OTL tho).

I would hope that Malik is one of Litvinov's heirs, not a hardliner who sees his moment. But either way, I am not convinced that his plan takes into account the longer term reputational repercussions or how this action will affect other regions.

Now, if Malik's game plan were to offer support and recognition for the coup regime in return for them holding elections soon and moderating their approach to the Maoist KPI faction I might be OK with it, but the Malik plan to me reads more like us offering our blood and treasure for the Indonesian civil war. Which would be bad for Indonesia (because I am sure we would do our best to re-enact the OTL Vietnam war there) and bad for us. If the coup doesn't provoke a civil war, great, but if it does IMO we don't want to get involved beyond humanitarian aid and support for efforts to bring a negotiated end to the fighting.

General_Urist said:
My choice of vote between Yangel's mission and Alternative Proposals is decided by exactly one big thing: How official/open is this "surrender" of the Moon race? If this is The Voz privately going "well, at that slow pace we'll probably lose" for internal reports, while still openly promising the Supreme Soviet that they're Working Really Hard on getting a manned landing and we're just building necessary experience, than it's a great option. But if we're openly telling the SupSov "yeah, we've decided to give up on beating the yanks" than not only do we suffer badly politically but also we probably get the post-space race funding cut early. And I do NOT want that!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Your question here does make me think that at least surrendering the moon race without asking for proposals from our other chief designers might be seen as... Being too eager to let the SupSov down.

And with most people so far seeming interested in backing the MFA in Indonesia, even if we do want to eventually back Yangel's plan, maybe we should kick the can down the road so that we don't cause problems for Kosygin TWICE this season...

Am very much leaning towards "Organize Alternative Proposals" and may delete my vote for Yangel's plan.

@Blackstar if we organize alternate proposals, would Yangel's plan be available to us still, or would we have to take Korolev or Chelomei's ideas?

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Last edited:
fasquardon said:
Now, if Malik's game plan were to offer support and recognition for the coup regime in return for them holding elections soon and moderating their approach to the Maoist KPI faction I might be OK with it, but the Malik plan to me reads more like us offering our blood and treasure for the Indonesian civil war. Which would be bad for Indonesia (because I am sure we would do our best to re-enact the OTL Vietnam war there) and bad for us. If the coup doesn't provoke a civil war, great, but if it does IMO we don't want to get involved beyond humanitarian aid and support for efforts to bring a negotiated end to the fighting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Malik while going and getting involved isn't getting that significantly involved. His plan more of calls for a massive dumping of food aid onto them, using your more developed distribution networks and overproduction to buffer out the regime. Offering open sales for whatever arms you want to sell, but not exactly giving them away. Plus, Gosbank loans in rubles for whatever machinery they wish to buy along with some direct soviet investment where you think you can make significant returns as some form of privatization is nearly guaranteed. If the junta explodes then at worst your out some grain as a humanitarian mission, if it doesn't then you just built a new demand base. More importantly, it allows you to consolidate out China and have an ally in SEA that you can navally base out of and form a massive defensive chain. Basing it off the assumption that the army/regional commands are sufficiently on the side and as long as the civilians are bought off you can "buy" stability.

(Of course, if it immediately explodes you are back to the same crisis turns with egg on your face and with different options, but that is semi-outside the point)

fasquardon said:
Am very much leaning towards "Organize Alternative Proposals" and may delete my vote for Yangel's plan.

@Blackstar if we organize alternate proposals, would Yangel's plan be available to us still, or would we have to take Korolev or Chelomei's ideas?

Regards,

fasquardon
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Likely no as ostensibly the plan is still to go for a moon landing otherwise. There could be a result where nothing considered remotely viable is proposed and then you would default to Yangel, but that is more of a failure condition.
 
[X]Organize Alternative Proposals
[X]Back Malik
 
Last edited:
[X]Back Malik
spiting Kos is not worth risking Indonesia
[X]Organize Alternative Proposals
let's try again, lock the nerds in a room and don't let them out until they produce a good design
 
Given the option talks of Yangel's missin "as a prelude and to build experience with manned operations outside of LEO", it sounds like the lads still expect we'll put a man on the moon eventually, they just think that taking this slow approach will make the Americans likely to beat us to it. So it's not quite an open surrender and throwing in the towel- we can probably keep our funding and wait for more mature tech in a few years.
 
General_Urist said:
Given the option talks of Yangel's missin "as a prelude and to build experience with manned operations outside of LEO", it sounds like the lads still expect we'll put a man on the moon eventually, they just think that taking this slow approach will make the Americans likely to beat us to it. So it's not quite an open surrender and throwing in the towel- we can probably keep our funding and wait for more mature tech in a few years.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I agree with that interpretation, but I think for the good of the political system it may be worth keeping Yangel's plan in reserve right now.

Blackstar said:
Malik while going and getting involved isn't getting that significantly involved. His plan more of calls for a massive dumping of food aid onto them, using your more developed distribution networks and overproduction to buffer out the regime. Offering open sales for whatever arms you want to sell, but not exactly giving them away. Plus, Gosbank loans in rubles for whatever machinery they wish to buy along with some direct soviet investment where you think you can make significant returns as some form of privatization is nearly guaranteed. If the junta explodes then at worst your out some grain as a humanitarian mission, if it doesn't then you just built a new demand base. More importantly, it allows you to consolidate out China and have an ally in SEA that you can navally base out of and form a massive defensive chain. Basing it off the assumption that the army/regional commands are sufficiently on the side and as long as the civilians are bought off you can "buy" stability.

(Of course, if it immediately explodes you are back to the same crisis turns with egg on your face and with different options, but that is semi-outside the point)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

OK, so Malik's plan is not nearly as bad as I thought. I read the option as being much more overtly anti-Maoist.

Blackstar said:
Likely no as ostensibly the plan is still to go for a moon landing otherwise. There could be a result where nothing considered remotely viable is proposed and then you would default to Yangel, but that is more of a failure condition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, if one of the other designers can actually come up with a decent plan, that would be OK. Yangel's plan being there if they fail is good enough for me.

And since the MFA's plan is better than I had thought, making another try to get a good moon landing plan is probably good for Kos and Voz's political stability.

Will remove my backing for Yangel's plan.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top