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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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Zeta0 said:
Is Crete a British possession here? What's the border with Finland look like?
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Yeah, they are keeping it for now, not sure how that will turn out now. As for Finland, as a result from that nat 100 in the negotiations way back then, we managed to significantly push back their border, though they did keep Vipuuri, since there was no way they'd just give it up through diplomacy.
 
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Mr. Sandman said:
Yeah, they are keeping it for now, not sure how that will turn out now. As for Finland, as a result from that nat 100 in the negotiations way back then, we managed to significantly push back their border, though they did keep Vipuuri, since there was no way they'd just give it up through diplomacy.
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I imagine that the Finnish were given some territory above Karelia in recompense. Maybe some of Kola peninsula.

Does anyone know the specifics of the deal made with Finland?
 
Rai-Ju said:
I imagine that the Finnish were given some territory above Karelia in recompense. Maybe some of Kola peninsula.

Does anyone know the specifics of the deal made with Finland?
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Eh, the recompense was not going to war with the Soviets. In the OTL, the Soviets pushed too far and had a disgraceful performance against the Finns, which certainly coloured peace negotiations. ITTL, they were probably more wary at angering us, and accepted our terms more readily. So with the exception of Vipuuri, which is really the most valuable part of the land ceded to them in the OTL, and was only given after a bloody war, they gave us what we wanted. I can't be sure though.
 
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Mr. Sandman said:
Eh, the recompense was not going to war with the Soviets. In the OTL, the Soviets pushed too far and had a disgraceful performance against the Finns, which certainly coloured peace negotiations. ITTL, they were probably more wary at angering us, and accepted our terms more readily. So with the exception of Vipuuri, which is really the most valuable part of the land ceded to them in the OTL, and was only given after a bloody war, they gave us what we wanted. I can't be sure though.
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It was specifically framed as a land trade and defence treaty. I remember that much from my history classes. I checked just now and OTL Soviets offered finnish land from eastern Karelia that had been ceded to Soviet Russia in Treaty of Tartu. It however, wasnt enough to convince OTL finnish leadership to accept the deal on Soviet terms.
 
Rai-Ju said:
It was specifically framed as a land trade and defence treaty. I remember that much from my history classes. I checked just now and OTL Soviets offered finnish land from eastern Karelia that had been ceded to Soviet Russia in Treaty of Tartu. It however, wasnt enough to convince OTL finnish leadership to accept the deal on Soviet terms.
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I'll take keep that in mind and see about doing a more north aligned map later. This one only shows the very south of Finland, so it doesn't show those lands taken in 1920 anyway.
 
The Soviet and German tanks rolling over some small fish that threatened to break with the Soviet line, except the tankies are the reformers crushing Hoxha for being too Stalinist is one hell of a look
 
OTL Albania came close to becoming an Yugoslav republic and until Yugoslavia was expeled from the Comintern it was more or less a Yugoslav puppet. TTL Yugoslavia is all but garented to stay with the USSR and that may mean Hoxha will have a staying alive problems in the future
 
Rai-Ju said:
It was specifically framed as a land trade and defence treaty. I remember that much from my history classes. I checked just now and OTL Soviets offered finnish land from eastern Karelia that had been ceded to Soviet Russia in Treaty of Tartu. It however, wasnt enough to convince OTL finnish leadership to accept the deal on Soviet terms.
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I mean that deal is probably quite different than otl given that in this tl Finnish didn't ceed all lands Soviet Union wanted

Mr. Sandman said:
I'll take keep that in mind and see about doing a more north aligned map later. This one only shows the very south of Finland, so it doesn't show those lands taken in 1920 anyway.
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We already have Soviet /finish border map from the maps on the front. I believe that is this tl map actually.

valtarius said:
OTL Albania came close to becoming an Yugoslav republic and until Yugoslavia was expeled from the Comintern it was more or less a Yugoslav puppet. TTL Yugoslavia is all but garented to stay with the USSR and that may mean Hoxha will have a staying alive problems in the future
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Yugoslavia isn't so influential as on this tl, though on second hand Albania isn't either given that Soviets troops passed there as well, not to mention that I kinda doubt that Albania will try anything funny given that Greece and Yugoslavia are in Soviet sphere this time around so it will be kinda hard to split without buffer states in-between.
 
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Random Member said:
Hoxha will likely start screaming about "revisionism" once Mikoyan starts his reforms, and then he'll try to cause a split. Might have to send in the tanks on that one....
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No that's too expensive. Just wait until we got atomic bomb. Once we get than, clap clap our problem is solved by dropping one bomb into Albania
 
The British holding Crete instead of returning it to the Greek government like was presumably agreed upon at Tehran and Yalta would be kind of a big Cold War flashpoint, and more belligerent than the Americans would have allowed in just 45 or 46. If they really are holding onto it, I'd expect there to be increasingly ominous rumbling about the consequences.
 
The Sandman said:
The British holding Crete instead of returning it to the Greek government like was presumably agreed upon at Tehran and Yalta would be kind of a big Cold War flashpoint, and more belligerent than the Americans would have allowed in just 45 or 46. If they really are holding onto it, I'd expect there to be increasingly ominous rumbling about the consequences.
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That is a good point, though I'm pretty sure the Yalta conference didn't happen since the war against the Germans ended much quicker. Not sure on the Tehran conference, since Stalin was reluctant to attend OTL, IIRC and there already was a second front in Spain. He could have gone to discuss post war peace terms, or different conference could have happened, though I don't recall either. In any case, not relinquishing back territory to a country that was ostensibly your ally during the war (Greece) is not a good look. It might also cool relations between the royal family and Churchill, because of Phillip, whose marriage to Elizabeth should be in the works now.
 
Stop: How about we don't and say we didn't?
  • Staff Post
    • Jack Jack said:
    PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE
    I WANT SOME REVISIONIST BLOOD
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    how about we don't and say we didn't?
    This strange crowing for genocide for 'revisionist blood' and the whole advocacy for nuking a country is very much not okay Jack Jack. So much so that it warrants 25 points and a week threadban from the thread so you can take some time to familiarize yourself with the rules. Do not do this again, because future incidents will result in a permanent threadban and harsher penalties.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Yeah.

    A certain amount of gallows humor about gulags and purges is inevitable given that we're playing Stalinist Russian Ministry Quest, but I've been getting kind of weirded out by that bit myself.
     
    I want to make a bad joke about board infiltration paralleling american spies but it would be affairs of other boards with 0 evidence in joke format, so it's not worth it.
     
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    SCO said:
    I want to make a bad joke about board infiltration paralleling american spies but it would be affairs of other boards with 0 evidence in joke format, so it's not worth it.
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    SV does not have any 'affairs of other boards' rule. Still probably bad idea if you're going to talk shit about some other board without evidence or whatever.
     
    So found a good page for information and images of Cold War military vehicles. This page specifically is about the USSR vehicle pool.
    tanks-encyclopedia.com

    Soviet Union Cold War Tanks and Armored Vehicles

    Discover the numerous, sometimes innovative Cold War Soviet Tanks, IFVs, APCs, and engineering vehicles from before the Fall.
    tanks-encyclopedia.com tanks-encyclopedia.com
     
    Bhuj, Gujarat, Free India

    "Captain Antonov reporting as ordered Comrade Coronel".

    "At ease Captain. Tell me Captain, what is our mission in India, why are we here?"

    "Sir, it is to assist our fellow workers and people of India to liberate themselves from exploitation and domination from the British imperialists by helping to assist in the training of new pilots ."

    "Correct Captain. To assist in the training of new pilots. Not to get in fistfights in a crowded market in the middle of the day with some laborers. Now, can you explain to me why did you get involved in this altercation."

    "Permission to speak freely Coronel."

    "Granted"

    "I was in the market just talking a walk. I noticed Pushpa, she and her Aunt and Grandmother cook for us in the canteen, purchasing some vegetables. I rough sort of character approached her and I could tell they knew each other. While she was bargaining with the vegetable seller the character offered to buy her the vegetables and that if she only agreed to be his beloved then she would not need to work anymore. She declined and told him that she was working and had a good job taking care of her family and that he was a drunkard. He then said that he had heard of women offering themselves to us for extra money. She then slapped him which only enraged him and he struck her. I then intervened."

    "You intervened and sent two men to the hospital. If the local law had not shown up you possibly would have killed them. You are an example of the VVS and the Soviet Union Captain, a professional military man. You cannot go around defending some woman's honor like a medieval knight. However, due to your service record, current conduct while here and assistance to the local community you will not be sent back to the USSR. You will be restricted to barracks for the next month. It seems the drunkard you hospitalized was wanted by the local law for a variety of crimes and a general nuisance. I have already been contacted by my higher ups and the local community leaders to commend you. Unofficially since we are not an officially here. Also, and you did not hear this from me, as a father of three daughters I commend your action. This will be noted on your record as a warning and not carried farther, and Comrade Captain."

    "Yes, Comrade Coronel?"

    "You were lucky this week. As a pilot you know sometimes luck runs out. Do not repeat this mistake again. Dismissed."
     
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    Wait, you mean we're training pilots in India as opposed to shipping them all the way to our siberian piloting schools?
     
    Dwergar said:
    Wait, you mean we're training pilots in India as opposed to shipping them all the way to our siberian piloting schools?
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    The thing isn't official yet so no idea if it is actually canon.

    But training them there does have more plausible deniability than dragging folks to Siberia. Less hassle too, with decreased chances of things best kept secret leaking to the capitalists.
     
    I mean, it has more deniability, and also less.

    Scenario 1:

    Promising young Indians with good reflexes, good wind, 20/15 vision, and a great willingness to make RAF bomber crews die for Blighty start mysteriously disappearing. They occasionally writing back heavily censored letters home reading something like:

    [REDACTED REDACTED] all my love [REDACTED] please send some of Mum's secret spice blend and also literally every piece of heavy clothing in the village for the love of Vishnu I am afraid I will freeze my [REDACTED] off up here and I know you want grandchildren [REDACTED REDACTED]

    They come back several months later and start flying Russian La's and MiG's and Yaks against the RAF to considerable effect.

    Scenario 2:

    White men who speak English/Hindi/Urdu/whatever badly and with broad accents appear in suspicious numbers around key air bases all over India. They occasionally lapse into excitable Russian swearing whenever they bite into the spicier bits of the local cuisine. Quality of Indian pilot flying of Russian La's and MiG's and Yaks against the RAF improves markedly.

    Possibly RAF bomber crews occasionally hear radio chatter that they are pretty fucking sure is in Russian, much as in the Korean War. Sergey Kramarenko has a glorious duel (OUR BATTLE WILL BE LEGENDARY!) with, oh, let's say James Lacey, the only RAF ace flying.

    Nothing is ever proven to a level that would motivate Winston Churchill to declare war on the Soviet Union, not least because when he calls up Harry Truman asking for nuclear bomber support over this affair, the reply he gets sets a Guiness world record for density of cusses per second.

    ...

    Scenario 1 is in some ways more deniable than Scenario 2 (fewer actual Russian boots on the ground in India) and in other ways less deniable (there is literally no way that the USSR hosting Indian pilots in flight schools on its own territory could POSSIBLY be the act of private citizens who "just happen to be on vacation.")

    It's a mixed bag.
     
    What about middle ground? We can host them in central Asia, a lot closer , better infrastructure etc..
     
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    There's also the factor that if they are trained in India, they will be more accustomed to flying in their own airfields, the terrain and local weather conditions. Besides, it is easier to have some trainers to go to India than take hundreds or thousands of pilots up to Siberia or wherever to train them up.
     
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