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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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[X]Form Suspects
[X]Stay Passive
[X]Rushed Minimal Probe

We're not really doing that much science with such an early probe, so I think we should be trying to score a first and getting experience with all the many, many problems that will have to be discovered. Running missions like this will help politically justify the expenditure and lead to more experience and better reliability on later missions that will have much better capabilities.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Honestly, I just see the Minister of the Interior being sidelined out of a previously successful corruption investigation here and that has me concerned.
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Dudorov isn't Minister of the Interior, he was but lost the power struggle in the April Crisis and got pushed into being Chairman of Presidium of the Supreme Soviet. He tried to claw back power here but Kosygin was able to defeat him. Barsukov is Ministor of the Interior, which is why Voz comments on him "[having] a temporary liquor-induced deficiency"
 
[X]Equivocate
[X]Stay Passive

"Form Suspects" isn't the option for actually cleaning out the MNKh IMO, it's Voz handing off a short list of the absolute worst so that the investigators will make off with their sacrificial lambs and leave the vast bulk of the corruption alone. It'll scare the lower ranking officials into compliance with Voznesensky's line lest they end up on the next list we hand over to the chekists control commission, perhaps, but that isn't the same thing as stopping corruption. For an actual deep clean I think we need to either do decisive action (will probably backfire horribly) or pressure people into taking their pensions and fucking off so new blood can come in.

Edit: We're Voz, not Mal
 
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[X]Equivocate
[X]Stay Passive
[X]Rushed Minimal Probe

Voting for boats to remain unrocked, and for Mars to (probably) get a small and expensive new crater.
 
Crazycryodude said:
[X]Equivocate
[X]Stay Passive

"Form Suspects" isn't the option for actually cleaning out the MNKh IMO, it's Malenkov handing off a short list of the absolute worst so that the investigators will make off with their sacrificial lambs and leave the vast bulk of the corruption alone. It'll scare the lower ranking officials into compliance with Malenkov's line lest they end up on the next list we hand over to the chekists control commission, perhaps, but that isn't the same thing as stopping corruption. For an actual deep clean I think we need to either do decisive action (will probably backfire horribly) or pressure people into taking their pensions and fucking off so new blood can come in.
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You mean Voz? Mal is retired.
 
Crazycryodude said:
"Form Suspects" isn't the option for actually cleaning out the MNKh IMO, it's Voz handing off a short list of the absolute worst so that the investigators will make off with their sacrificial lambs and leave the vast bulk of the corruption alone. It'll scare the lower ranking officials into compliance with Voznesensky's line lest they end up on the next list we hand over to the chekists control commission, perhaps, but that isn't the same thing as stopping corruption. For an actual deep clean I think we need to either do decisive action (will probably backfire horribly) or pressure people into taking their pensions and fucking off so new blood can come in.
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I am not entirely convinced. Perhaps Equivocate might get a few more people removed. But it specifically mentions trying to be "slow and inconvenient at every level" and letting people retire quietly instead of getting publicly condemned for their crimes. I do not feel that's a behavior we want to make a habit of.
 
7th Hex said:
We as the players and some of the more scientifically-minded of the government may see it that way, but will the rest of the Supreme Soviet see it that way? Or are they going to think "The USA beat us in the space race, again. Because our space program took too long to design an unmanned probe, again." There's got to be a limit somewhere to how much we can fall behind in the space race before other people start coming in to try and "fix" the program.
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Do you remember the first Soviet probe sent to Mars?

No-one else does, that's for sure. And there's a reason for that.

"Firsts" aren't the whole game, and it is quite possible to wreck a program by frantically scrambling to be first, when actual impressiveness matters too.

It is possible that the rushed minimal probe will succeed (a 4 in 10 chance, with a 6 in 10 chance it will be a complete failure), but it will achieve so little and do so little to drive the overall program forwards, whatever comes next will utterly leave it in the dust.

It's not worth holding back the whole program. We need to balance quality as well as speed.

There's an argument for not doing the impactor, sure. But a rushed probe to Mars is just a waste.

fasquardon
 
General_Urist said:
I am not entirely convinced. Perhaps Equivocate might get a few more people removed. But it specifically mentions trying to be "slow and inconvenient at every level" and letting people retire quietly instead of getting publicly condemned for their crimes. I do not feel that's a behavior we want to make a habit of.
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It'll actually get people out, that's all I care about. Public condemnation is meaningless, all the loud internationally broadcasted denunciations of the Stalin era did exactly jack shit to cultivate a sense of responsibility and respect for the process in the Party, and that's still the paradigm everyone's working on. Stalin's barely been in the ground a decade, every single person on the chopping block here was a politically involved adult during the Stalin era and still remembers all that. Public trials and mass denunciations are just the Bad Old Days, not enforcing responsibility via public opinion. The thing we need is new blood, and people who didn't learn all their politics under Stalin, which there's no substitute for besides expanding recruitment and waiting for turnover.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
It'll actually get people out, that's all I care about. Public condemnation is meaningless, all the loud internationally broadcasted denunciations of the Stalin era did exactly jack shit to cultivate a sense of responsibility and respect for the process in the Party, and that's still the paradigm everyone's working on. Stalin's barely been in the ground a decade, every single person on the chopping block here was a politically involved adult and still remembers all that. Public trials and mass denunciations are just the Bad Old Days, not enforcing responsibility via public opinion. The thing we need is new blood, and people who didn't learn all their politics under Stalin, which there's no substitute for besides expanding recruitment and waiting for turnover.
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From what you are saying there, it sounds like "Act Decisively" paired with "Stay Passive" is what you actually want.

Crazycryodude said:
That reason being the mission failed and they didn't get to Mars, thus not being the first? Mariner 4 is remembered for being the first, not for being technically impressive, it just got there.
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You reckon? How many other folks remember Mariner 4?

And you know, by pushing for a 1960 mission, we are making it MORE likely that the OTL events play out the same in TTL.

fasquardon
 
fasquardon said:
From what you are saying there, it sounds like "Act Decisively" paired with "Stay Passive" is what you actually want.
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Decisive action is the same mistake Mal made, that will just get them all to unite against us because we're trying to loudly and publicly send like half of our employees to the gulag totally reformed prison system that definitely isn't ULAG by a new name. "Equivocate" is stalling the official public incrimination while Mal tries to convince people to retire and fuck off before the cops get to them, which I think will be more effective at actually pushing out corrupt old guard and making room for new blood than a dozen or two names on yet another purge list. Assuming you actually trust Voz to lean on people and force quiet retirements, but broadly I do, even if he's not perfect his technocrat brain hates inefficiencies like deep corruption.
 
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Crazycryodude said:
Decisive action is the same mistake Mal made, that will just get them all to unite against us because we're trying to send like half of our employees to the gulag totally reformed prison system that definitely isn't ULAG by a new name. "Equivocate" is stalling the official public incrimination while Mal tries to convince people to retire and fuck off before the cops get to them, which I think will be more effective at actually pushing out corrupt old guard and making room for new blood than a dozen or two names on yet another purge list. Assuming you actually trust Voz to lean on people and force quiet retirements, but broadly I do, even if he's not perfect his technocrat brain hates inefficiencies like deep corruption.
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Yeah, I don't think so. As others have said, "equivocate" specifically says that Voz would be impeding the anti-corruption investigations.

fasquardon
 
Blackstar said:
[]Equivocate: Acting the part of the politician that wants to be sure before accusing anyone and mixing in a few reminders of the Stalinist era should be enough cover for any caution. Instead of actively hindering investigations, the only point of the maneuver is to make an effort slow and inconvenient at every level, ensuring that most will have enough time to be encouraged into retirement without too much fuss, keeping their pensions in exchange for knowing when to give up.
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Emphasis mine, but to me at least this very clearly reads like stalling (but not stopping) the official, public trials on TV with dudes in handcuffs. While at the same time very much NOT tolerating corruption and trying to force retirements for anybody who can see the writing on the wall with the bribe of their pension and not going to jail if they agree to fuck off and stay quiet in their dacha for the rest of their natural lives.
 
Crazycryodude said:
Emphasis mine, but to me at least this very clearly reads like stalling (but not stopping) the official, public trials on TV with dudes in handcuffs. While at the same time very much NOT tolerating corruption and trying to force retirements for anybody who can see the writing on the wall with the bribe of their pension and not going to jail if they agree to fuck off and stay quiet in their dacha for the rest of their natural lives.
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Hmmm. Alright, I see what you mean. I still don't think it is the right choice, but I can see your logic now. Fair enough. ^_^

fasquardon
 
fasquardon said:
You reckon? How many other folks remember Mariner 4?
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We don't need the Mars flyby mission to be a household name 50 years later, we need something that we can wave to get political capital with the politicians who are in power during 1960 TTL so that we have something to burn to avoid interference in more important missions. The Supreme Soviet of 1960 is probably going to care more about being first to flyby Mars than someone 50 years later, and the more clout we've got the more breathing room we have for delaying bigger missions if nessecary. If we had got Sputnik up before the US I would have been fine with delaying on the Mars mission since we would have already gotten something to show, but America won that part of the race.
 
My vote:

[X]Form Suspects
[X]Stay Passive
[X]Focus on the 1962 Window

Going for a conservative probe in 1962 since the main thing is to avoid hurting the program with a rush to a poor probe. Impactors can come later.

fasquardon
 
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