Ah yeah it appears I did get one too many NST dice, whoops, thanks for catching that. The diesels have been getting a free +50 per turn from something (I think the rail/locomotive factories?) so that's where I came up with the extra +50 there from.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition
- Thread starter Blackstar
- Start date
- Alt. History Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Nando
they, them
Yeah, I thought as much, and also could remember such a thing being, well, a thing. But I couldn't find the place where it's mentioned... *shrug*
@Blackstar if we end up with another thing passively progressing, would it be possible to note that down, somewhere? Either in the turn posts or in the informational?
Semi-Canon Omake: Germany in Spain
mouli
Terrible QM
- Location
- United States
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Operational Orders, 1. Leichte-DivisionSTRENG GEHEIM
Copy 1 of 3 Copies
Condor Legion HQ/Generalstab des Heeres
11/05/38 1400
1. SITUATION:
Republican assaults have cut communications along the Southern Theater of Operations in the Extremadura. Republican forces hold the line Badajoz-Merida-Ciudad Real and the bridges therein, cutting communications south to Sevilla. Hard contact with Republican forces moving south has been confirmed by the 2nd Legionnaire Regiment. The presence of Soviet troops has been confirmed by the 3rd Mixed Brigade.
Forces are estimated at two to three infantry brigades along the line Badajoz-Merida digging in along the Guadiana River line and using the towns as urban strongpoints. A further estimated one to two Soviet brigades of motorized infantry and armor are estimated to be massed on Merida-Ciudad Real within the Republican salient as a mobile reserve. The salient from Merida-Ciudad Real is estimated to have 4-6 mixed brigades and a heavy artillery battery holding it.
Operations by the Condor Legion have met with contested airspace. Air support cannot be guaranteed for the next 24 hours. The CTV is massing two squadrons of CR.42 to contest the skies and cover a breakthrough. Further support will be provided by Condor Legion units in 24 hours.
Spanish forces in Sevilla HQ (1st, 3rd Legionnaire) are earmarked for a counteroffensive from the south to Ciudad Real.
Spanish units under Extremadura HQ (6th, 8th, 12th Mixed Brigades) and the CTV motorized group (4th Motorized 'Littorio',1st Blackshirt Infantry) are earmarked for an offensive south to Ciudad Real.
2. MISSION
The 1. Leichte is to aid and assist Spanish forces in securing a breakthrough on the line Merida-Ciudad Real, restoring communications with General Mola's forces.
3. EXECUTION
The terrain is suited to a motorized offensive, and the mass of Spanish Legionnaires allows for experienced, reliable infantry support. Italian motorized forces have been instructed to place themselves under your command and act as a motorized support unit. It is recommended to bypass urban centers and break through the line between Merida-Ciudad Real while tasking Spanish Legionnaires and Blackshirts to clear the cities. Use of Legion Condor or CTV air support for strongpoint reduction is advised. The main asset of the Light Division is mobility and armor, and maximal use of those assets is strongly advised.
Further details follow…@Blackstar
Canon Omake: Status of Intervention in Spain
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Foreign Combatants in the Spanish Civil War
Pro Republican
Soviet Union
Though the USSR would become the largest supporter of the Spanish Republicans, initial Soviet aid was fairly reluctant until the start of 1937, despite support for heavy intervention from figures such as VSNKh head Anastas Mikoyan. As the Republic was driven back by the Nationalists and their own foreign backers however, the Soviet Union began arms sales to the Republican government, quickly becoming its primary supplier of military equipment from infantry rifles to tanks and aircraft, though most of these were old and outdated, and cost the Republican government the vast majority of its gold reserves (roughly 700 tons) to purchase.
More direct assistance was also provided, with Soviet 'volunteer' units amounting to two divisions with modern equipment arriving in Spain to battle against the spread of Fascism, and to commit field testing on new equipment designs made as part of the Red Army's modernization program. Several thousand more personnel arrived to serve as pilots, instructors, and political commissars for the Republicans, while others under Alexander Orlov were assigned to creating partisan units within Nationalist territory. While much of the Soviet contribution was welcomed, the political and intelligence assets committed were noted to have caused a degree of friction, often more focused on rooting out elements of the Popular Front that would be opposed to a more Stalinist government than the cause of achieving victory over the Nationalists.
The USSR volunteer divisions soon gained a fearsome reputation, sporting equipment like the SVT-34 (and later SVT-36) semi-automatic rifle, along with powerful armored vehicles such as the T-28 Medium tank and BT-5 (later replaced by the BT-7) Light Tanks. This high quality equipment combined with competent training soon saw them considered as some of the most powerful units fighting for the Republicans. In return, the USSR gained gold to finance its industrial buildup, and a vital supply of experience on developing weapons and doctrine from feedback gained from their volunteer units.
International Brigades
Formed by the Communist International, the International Brigades were volunteer units assembled to assist the Popular Front in the Spanish Civil War, with an estimated over 60,000 assembled in total (though the number fighting in Spain at any one time was somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000.) The origins of these volunteers range across all of Europe and beyond, with the largest initial contributions coming from France and Italy.
The quality of the International Brigades varied. Many were formed out of former Great War veterans, and thus were battle-hardened, experienced fighters that became some of the better units available to the Popular Front, with one of the most famous being the XI International Brigade, famed for its fighting in Madrid and Guadalajara. Others, however, were largely untrained volunteers with more enthusiasm than skill. In particular, the American units of the Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, and Thomas Paine Battalions were generally looked down upon as useful idiots at best, and an active hazard at worst by their Republican and Soviet allies. Despite this, by and large the International Brigades provided an infusion of manpower to the Spanish Republic at a time when it desperately needed aid, and the units composed of former veterans would often become some of its elite formations until the end of the civil war.
Others
Left-aligned volunteers which opposed Stalinism generally did not join the International Brigades, instead joining the Anarchist National Confederation of Labour(CNT) or the Trotskyist Workers' Party of Marxist Unification(POUM). These volunteers, numbering around 3,000 in total, primarily fought in the northern front, where they received little support and a great deal of suspicion from the Popular Front's USSR attaches. Despite this lack of support, the northern front would continue to fight well against the Nationalists across 1937 and into 1938.
Pro Nationalist
Italy
Fascist Italy would quickly become the most heavily involved of any foreign power fighting in the Spanish Civil War. Viewing the war as a chance to secure an ally in the Mediterranean and show the world his nation's military might, Benito Mussolini would support the Nationalists first with shipments of equipment, and soon afterwards direct military support. At its peak, the Corpo Truppe Volontarie (Corps of Volunteer Troops) consisted of 60,000 soldiers from the Royal Italian Army and Blackshirt paramilitary units fighting on the ground alongside the Spanish Nationalists, with personnel and aircraft from the Italian Royal Air Force forming the Aviazione Legionaria (Legionary Air Force.)
Despite the tremendous contributions Italy was making to the Nationalist cause, the Italian volunteer units began to pick up a largely negative reputation over the course of the Civil War after a humiliating defeat at the Battle of Guadalajara in March, 1937. Later that same year, the CTV would be defeated by Soviet volunteer units and American International Brigades in the Battle of Toledo Heights, forcing the commitment of the German Condor Legion and the Army of Africa to retake the critical location, which in turn left them out of position to redeploy against the renewed Republican offensive in the Merida Campaign. These twin defeats were humiliating losses of prestige for Italy's fascist regime, which would only motivate Mussolini to contributing yet more resources and personnel to Spain to avenge them and efface the humiliation.
Italy's massive contributions would not be without consequences. With close to 75,000 Italians directly supporting the Nationalist cause at its height and large arms shipments to supply them, Italy was spending around 4% of the nation's entire GDP supporting Mussolini's Spanish adventure. This would prove to be a tremendous drain on the economy of a relatively unindustrialized and resource-poor nation, particularly one that would find itself involved in war on a much larger scale just a few years later.
Germany
Compared to Italy, Nazi Germany was more reluctant to provide large-scale direct assistance to the Spanish Nationalists, fearing an escalation into a Europe-wide war that they were not yet prepared for. Despite this, the assistance Germany gave the Nationalist cause was still significant. German aircraft helped transport Franco's Army of Africa from Spanish Morocco to Spain itself at the start of the civil war, and this was only a prelude of what was to come.
Ironically, Germany's support for the Nationalists bore many similarities to that which its hated rival, the USSR, gave to the Republicans. Like the USSR, Germany saw the Spanish Civil War as a proving ground, where experimental tactics and equipment could be field-tested without the risks and costs that an open war would bring. The Condor Legion, consisting of German air and armored units, would be the main conductor of this experimentation, ranging from strategic bombing to armored assault to close air support, while other Germans served as instructors and trainers for Nationalist recruits.
The mobilization of USSR volunteer divisions saw the Condor Legion strengthened with the deployment of the 1st Light Brigade as the war continued. Overall, it is estimated that 20,000 German citizens fought, with never more than 14,000 being present in Spain at any one time.
Others
While the International Brigades fighting for the Republicans are more famous, a number of foreigners from across the globe came to fight for the Nationalist cause as well. Early in the war, the Nationalists received volunteers from far-right movements in Ireland and France, consisting of 700 and 500 men respectively, which were formed into units inside the Spanish Foreign Legion, the Irish Brigade and the Jeanne d'Arc Company.
Such contributions never came close to the organization, numbers, or effect that the Italian and German volunteer units had, or that of the International Brigades for the Republican cause, as these Nationalist volunteers came as individuals rather than organized units, and in vastly fewer numbers. As such, they had little impact on the course of the civil war, and are largely forgotten when one speaks of the major events taking place during the conflict.
Pro Republican
Soviet Union
Though the USSR would become the largest supporter of the Spanish Republicans, initial Soviet aid was fairly reluctant until the start of 1937, despite support for heavy intervention from figures such as VSNKh head Anastas Mikoyan. As the Republic was driven back by the Nationalists and their own foreign backers however, the Soviet Union began arms sales to the Republican government, quickly becoming its primary supplier of military equipment from infantry rifles to tanks and aircraft, though most of these were old and outdated, and cost the Republican government the vast majority of its gold reserves (roughly 700 tons) to purchase.
More direct assistance was also provided, with Soviet 'volunteer' units amounting to two divisions with modern equipment arriving in Spain to battle against the spread of Fascism, and to commit field testing on new equipment designs made as part of the Red Army's modernization program. Several thousand more personnel arrived to serve as pilots, instructors, and political commissars for the Republicans, while others under Alexander Orlov were assigned to creating partisan units within Nationalist territory. While much of the Soviet contribution was welcomed, the political and intelligence assets committed were noted to have caused a degree of friction, often more focused on rooting out elements of the Popular Front that would be opposed to a more Stalinist government than the cause of achieving victory over the Nationalists.
The USSR volunteer divisions soon gained a fearsome reputation, sporting equipment like the SVT-34 (and later SVT-36) semi-automatic rifle, along with powerful armored vehicles such as the T-28 Medium tank and BT-5 (later replaced by the BT-7) Light Tanks. This high quality equipment combined with competent training soon saw them considered as some of the most powerful units fighting for the Republicans. In return, the USSR gained gold to finance its industrial buildup, and a vital supply of experience on developing weapons and doctrine from feedback gained from their volunteer units.
International Brigades
Formed by the Communist International, the International Brigades were volunteer units assembled to assist the Popular Front in the Spanish Civil War, with an estimated over 60,000 assembled in total (though the number fighting in Spain at any one time was somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000.) The origins of these volunteers range across all of Europe and beyond, with the largest initial contributions coming from France and Italy.
The quality of the International Brigades varied. Many were formed out of former Great War veterans, and thus were battle-hardened, experienced fighters that became some of the better units available to the Popular Front, with one of the most famous being the XI International Brigade, famed for its fighting in Madrid and Guadalajara. Others, however, were largely untrained volunteers with more enthusiasm than skill. In particular, the American units of the Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, and Thomas Paine Battalions were generally looked down upon as useful idiots at best, and an active hazard at worst by their Republican and Soviet allies. Despite this, by and large the International Brigades provided an infusion of manpower to the Spanish Republic at a time when it desperately needed aid, and the units composed of former veterans would often become some of its elite formations until the end of the civil war.
Others
Left-aligned volunteers which opposed Stalinism generally did not join the International Brigades, instead joining the Anarchist National Confederation of Labour(CNT) or the Trotskyist Workers' Party of Marxist Unification(POUM). These volunteers, numbering around 3,000 in total, primarily fought in the northern front, where they received little support and a great deal of suspicion from the Popular Front's USSR attaches. Despite this lack of support, the northern front would continue to fight well against the Nationalists across 1937 and into 1938.
Pro Nationalist
Italy
Fascist Italy would quickly become the most heavily involved of any foreign power fighting in the Spanish Civil War. Viewing the war as a chance to secure an ally in the Mediterranean and show the world his nation's military might, Benito Mussolini would support the Nationalists first with shipments of equipment, and soon afterwards direct military support. At its peak, the Corpo Truppe Volontarie (Corps of Volunteer Troops) consisted of 60,000 soldiers from the Royal Italian Army and Blackshirt paramilitary units fighting on the ground alongside the Spanish Nationalists, with personnel and aircraft from the Italian Royal Air Force forming the Aviazione Legionaria (Legionary Air Force.)
Despite the tremendous contributions Italy was making to the Nationalist cause, the Italian volunteer units began to pick up a largely negative reputation over the course of the Civil War after a humiliating defeat at the Battle of Guadalajara in March, 1937. Later that same year, the CTV would be defeated by Soviet volunteer units and American International Brigades in the Battle of Toledo Heights, forcing the commitment of the German Condor Legion and the Army of Africa to retake the critical location, which in turn left them out of position to redeploy against the renewed Republican offensive in the Merida Campaign. These twin defeats were humiliating losses of prestige for Italy's fascist regime, which would only motivate Mussolini to contributing yet more resources and personnel to Spain to avenge them and efface the humiliation.
Italy's massive contributions would not be without consequences. With close to 75,000 Italians directly supporting the Nationalist cause at its height and large arms shipments to supply them, Italy was spending around 4% of the nation's entire GDP supporting Mussolini's Spanish adventure. This would prove to be a tremendous drain on the economy of a relatively unindustrialized and resource-poor nation, particularly one that would find itself involved in war on a much larger scale just a few years later.
Germany
Compared to Italy, Nazi Germany was more reluctant to provide large-scale direct assistance to the Spanish Nationalists, fearing an escalation into a Europe-wide war that they were not yet prepared for. Despite this, the assistance Germany gave the Nationalist cause was still significant. German aircraft helped transport Franco's Army of Africa from Spanish Morocco to Spain itself at the start of the civil war, and this was only a prelude of what was to come.
Ironically, Germany's support for the Nationalists bore many similarities to that which its hated rival, the USSR, gave to the Republicans. Like the USSR, Germany saw the Spanish Civil War as a proving ground, where experimental tactics and equipment could be field-tested without the risks and costs that an open war would bring. The Condor Legion, consisting of German air and armored units, would be the main conductor of this experimentation, ranging from strategic bombing to armored assault to close air support, while other Germans served as instructors and trainers for Nationalist recruits.
The mobilization of USSR volunteer divisions saw the Condor Legion strengthened with the deployment of the 1st Light Brigade as the war continued. Overall, it is estimated that 20,000 German citizens fought, with never more than 14,000 being present in Spain at any one time.
Others
While the International Brigades fighting for the Republicans are more famous, a number of foreigners from across the globe came to fight for the Nationalist cause as well. Early in the war, the Nationalists received volunteers from far-right movements in Ireland and France, consisting of 700 and 500 men respectively, which were formed into units inside the Spanish Foreign Legion, the Irish Brigade and the Jeanne d'Arc Company.
Such contributions never came close to the organization, numbers, or effect that the Italian and German volunteer units had, or that of the International Brigades for the Republican cause, as these Nationalist volunteers came as individuals rather than organized units, and in vastly fewer numbers. As such, they had little impact on the course of the civil war, and are largely forgotten when one speaks of the major events taking place during the conflict.
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- Location
- his hidden lair
I'm really curious what we're going to see for our 45 ton tank. I don't particularly see the KVs as an '88 quality' design for the most part. Especially considering our General Staff does not seem overly fond of the 76.2mm cannon at the moment. Given that, a design using a 152mm or a 122mm seems a bit likelier- do we have the technology or the know how to stumble into an early IS?
I can't see us going with a 152mm KV2 or the like given it misses the entire point of being capable of using our infrastructure, and the KV1 is ultimately a rather uninspired design, even if we improve some of its larger flaws.
I can't see us going with a 152mm KV2 or the like given it misses the entire point of being capable of using our infrastructure, and the KV1 is ultimately a rather uninspired design, even if we improve some of its larger flaws.
It's traditional human method of innovation, cribbing someone else's stuff.
Right now, KV is something worthy of an 88 roll.
It has heavy armour and only one turret with a relatively big gun, something that wasn't a prevailing trend for heavy tanks in the 30s.
- Location
- his hidden lair
It has a 20 year old transmission, the T-34 it should be mostly contemporaneous with had the same amount of firepower, it's armor is impressive but that's essentially the only thing it's got going for it.
Yes our KVs would likely have a more robust transmission and ubiquitous radios than OTL's- but they likely would have had those features anyways given our emphasis on radios and better educated labor pool+preserved technical expertise. The KV wasn't a good design, and I'd argue it never particularly was. I'm not going to be grateful for it and assign it a higher value just because it's not a T-35 or T-39- especially because that design philosophy was discredited independently of the KV
Edit: I'll point out a roll of 92 got us the SVT-40 in 1934. A design substantially innovative even for the time is not that out there.
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Really sad about divisional guns.
And just scared of scout tank.
And just scared of scout tank.
- Location
- UK
As people have said, the military designs used will become obsolete over the course of the war. Just seems like some will become obsolete quicker than others.
On the other hand, OTL soviets held competitions for self-loading rifles from late 20s, and they had Fedorov to evaluate before.
Tokarev had time to iterate his design toward success; There we might assume that he stumbled upon the winning combination several years earlier.
With KV, on the other hand, there's a different situation, with both precursors (T-35 and T-28) having multiple turrets, and if I'm not mistaken, OTL KV was accepted in a competition where it was the only single-turret tank. In 1940.
And ITTL the heavy tank competition was held at least partly in response to german development of a multi-turreted heavy tank.
So, I wouldn't assume that we get anything substantially better than KV. IS series was half a decade and a good part of GPW later, right we don't have necessary experience in building and using tanks.
The ultimate tank destroyer.
By the way, what do we need to do to get torsion bar suspension to production? OTL soviets were testing it on T-28 sometime in late 30s, but it didn't make it's way into their WWII tanks. Leaving T-34 with Christie suspension that did take a part of internal volume...
By the way, what do we need to do to get torsion bar suspension to production? OTL soviets were testing it on T-28 sometime in late 30s, but it didn't make it's way into their WWII tanks. Leaving T-34 with Christie suspension that did take a part of internal volume...
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The other part of the equation — still writing midterms, don't have the time to properly write down the quotes — is that we're using diesel compared to Germany's gasoline. We can eke out a better fuel draw rate and unlike the actual Tigers, don't need such convoluted gearboxes — thus cheaper on the production side — to go to full power...
...and still likely to be lighter than a Panther. Add this with the fact that we're not so crippled with the machinegun situation, what with us having updated post-war MGs, Russischer Koloss is liable to a bane against Germany... provided we work on the kinks of the tank a bit more. More than makes up for our -8 Scout Tanks, really~
...and still likely to be lighter than a Panther. Add this with the fact that we're not so crippled with the machinegun situation, what with us having updated post-war MGs, Russischer Koloss is liable to a bane against Germany... provided we work on the kinks of the tank a bit more. More than makes up for our -8 Scout Tanks, really~
Repeatedly, Blackstar did mention that low Quality rolls now is fine. It just mean that we learn the
don'ts than the dos. Certainly, doing it now at 1938-1939 isn't going to be the killer it would be unlike say, we do it at 1940.
Guilliman
Lord Protector
- Location
- Jakarta
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yup, that's just the nature of military development. We'll have a series of failures before we have success.
Clearly, what happened is us getting a Steiner Scout Lance. This time they're riding tanks that failed the heavy tank competition, as it's a millennia before Atlas became available.
A bit more than 8 centuries, actually.
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
Have we obtained any weapons or materials from the Fascists that we can send back to the Union?
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
The main problem with not having at least an acceptable light tank chassis is that if we go by OTL that's also the chassis our SPGs, SPAAGs and TDs would be using. So we do need to unfuck that at some point rather than inventing the MBT concept early and calling it a day.
- Location
- his hidden lair
We could probably use the BT-7M as our base chassis instead of a T-70. It's weight is a few tons heavier but it could probably be modified for the role and it's a proven design by this point.
If we have to get a -8, I would much rather get it now so we can learn in Spain or whatever that this is a terrible idea and we should never do any of this again before the war. At least we didn't get it in, like, 1942.
- Location
- his hidden lair
It's probably going to be something stupid like 'We don't need a scout tank we have cavalry!'
The specters of the cavalry commanders are going to haunt the kremlin.