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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Ehhh, we already turned SD from a place whose only value was a defensible harbor into a booming trade town that's on the cusp of becoming a minor city. If Westhaven, a minor enemy military base we've attacked, has problems, it isn't that much egg on our face given our other territories.

We really do need a Hand of the King type though.

Deliste said:
Dracolich does not require Viserys, Dany, Lya and Xor are available.Next.

Code of Laws is nice but not time crunch and it became necessary BECAUSE we are taking Westhaven, losing Westhaven and gaining laws is a huge step backward. Next.

Braavos will be nice for funds but I also care very little about gold and a diplomatic mission to Braavos will fail worse than not turning up if there is news about our newest holding failing while we flit around our old haunts. The Sealord won't put his appreciation of a friendly visit over the mark on our competence if shit goes down. Next.

Dorne is fair but same argument for Sealord, even if we do well while there if news comes that while we were being a charming young lad our people were dying to ghouls and ghasts then it's worse than never having turned up.
"He smiled and drank wine while they feasted on the flesh of their brothers, he told them that might happen you know".
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We're at the point where we need to personally diplomance the dracolich. So it does need Viserys. Next.

Code of Laws is needed if we want things to run when we are not here. Since we're planning trips to places where we are not going to be in the stepstones, we need to get those up and running. Next.

Westhaven isn't that important to be spoken about wide and far. Next.

Ignoring our ability to teleport and intervene in truly serious problems. Next.
 
Why are we not going be here Next month again?
This is time sensitive, the xorn are time sensitive.
Doing Salladhor personally is as important as doinh this personally.
The dracolich is important, but we can push eveything else back until its done with.
Braavos is just something we want to do, i see the importance, but its not something with a time stamp.
Dorne we can just teleport there after scrying on whoever we end Up sending there.
The code of law, again, Will just be a cruel joke if we Skip on the actual ruling.
 
Honestly--what you're saying, the uh, the intent, I agree with it in practice. But your priorities are skewed. If the prospect of governing Westhaven personally involved numbers in the untold thousands, like say we captured a Free City, yes, we should absolutely devote our full attention to something like that.

Westhaven is receiving much support even via delegation, we are literally a step away should anything occur, and at the end of the day it is a backwater and we have shit to do.
 
Diomedon said:
Ehhh, we already turned SD from a place whose only value was a defensible harbor into a booming trade town that's on the cusp of becoming a minor city. If Westhaven, a minor enemy military base we've attacked, has problems, it isn't that much egg on our face given our other territories.

We really do need a Hand of the King type though.



We're at the point where we need to personally diplomance the dracolich. So it does need Viserys. Next.

Code of Laws is needed if we want things to run when we are not here. Since we're planning trips to places where we are not going to be in the stepstones, we need to get those up and running. Next.

Westhaven isn't that important to be spoken about wide and far. Next.

Ignoring our ability to teleport and intervene in truly serious problems. Next.
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Why are we diplomancing a CE dracolich? We sacrifice the CR 13 and use the power to obtain it's phylactery and dominion, I hope we don't go the diplo route regardless of how this vote goes.

I don't disagree they are important but a man who writes laws and fails to enforce them justly is a shit king and I'd hope that Viserys wake up quick or go the way of canon.

Westaheven IS that important to be spoken about wide and far. It's the first time anyone has taken it in hundreds of years, it's a subsidiary military outpost of a world power that was just overthrown in a night.

Ignoring our ability to teleport and intervene in truly serious problems from Westhaven.
 
Deliste said:
Dracolich does not require Viserys, Dany, Lya and Xor are available.Next.
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Communing with the dracolich requires Viserys' social buffs. I'd much rather have him on the task.
Deliste said:
Code of Laws is nice but not time crunch and it became necessary BECAUSE we are taking Westhaven, losing Westhaven and gaining laws is a huge step backward. Next.
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This won't lose us Westhaven. Handing the reigns over to our party members doesn't mean we suddenly lose the island. They're competent and know what they're doing.
Deliste said:
Braavos will be nice for funds but I also care very little about gold and a diplomatic mission to Braavos will fail worse than not turning up if there is news about our newest holding failing while we flit around our old haunts. The Sealord won't put his appreciation of a friendly visit over the mark on our competence if shit goes down. Next.
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We plan to imbue Garin with a Sending so he can contact us if he needs us. Teleporting back to Westhaven is trivial.
Deliste said:
Dorne is fair but same argument for Sealord, even if we do well while there if news comes that while we were being a charming young lad our people were dying to ghouls and ghasts then it's worse than never having turned up.
"He smiled and drank wine while they feasted on the flesh of their brothers, he told them that might happen you know".
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Except that we're leaving mid-level party members in charge of Westhaven? They can easily put down a bunch of ghouls and ghasts if they decide to pop up. Oh, and if anyone gets bitten Tyene can heal them. Westhaven will not fall apart in our absence, and even if things get dangerous we can be called over by our party members. Also, I can almost guarantee the Sealord wouldn't give a damn about how we manage Westhaven beyond the fact that we wrested it away from Tyrosh.
Deliste said:
Underlings which DP dropped hints about until it hurt. They hate everything and everyone except us right now and need to be weaned off that viewpoint.
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Point. However, it's not so bad as "we'll rebel and society will fall apart if Viserys isn't there". The bulk of their respect is for Viserys, yes, but that's not to say they won't have a healthy amount of respect for the party members who helped us defeat the Maenads and saved the island.
Deliste said:
Why are we diplomancing a CE dracolich? We sacrifice the CR 13 and use the power to obtain it's phylactery and dominion, I hope we don't go the diplo route regardless of how this vote goes.
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We're communing if the sacrifice turns out not to work and we end up not getting the phylactery. I don't want to try to diplomance either, I'm just preparing for the worst.
 
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Crake said:
Honestly--what you're saying, the uh, the intent, I agree with it in practice. But your priorities are skewed. If the prospect of governing Westhaven personally involved numbers in the untold thousands, like say we captured a Free City, yes, we should absolutely devote our full attention to something like that.

Westhaven is receiving much support even via delegation, we are literally a step away should anything occur, and at the end of the day it is a backwater and we have shit to do.
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It's not about Westhaven the city and it's inhabitants and it's resources.

It's Westhaven the symbol. It's our first real conquest and everyone will be watching to see how we do. Nobody could see how things went down in SD so it didn't count even if they cared to look at a pirate den. Westhaven is infinitely more important in the eyes of established powers because it was held by an established power.
 
@Deliste
Nobody will see dracolich plan suceed. I rather imagine failue runs a chance of being noticed, insane angry dracolich is not likely to be sutble if it comes out in SD. Although if it is insane, the thought of it being sutble is a lot more scarey. :S

Also, arriane is a) not deserving to be in the political limbo
B) is growing more and more likely to do something dumb.

We also need to get Waymars sister out of that UNSPECIFIED FAVOR OWED FOR THE EQUIVELENT OF A BLOODY MESSAGE SPELL.

We can offer many things from that, ranging from proving the spirit with a sacrafice all the way to not sacrafing 100 demons to the OG so that they band together and evict it from the hivemind so it can be our plaything*

*Plaything is a bit OOC, but I'm not happy about that deal. Fuel is more likely. Harming something without a good feason is a poor use of time.
 
das_slash said:
Why are we not going be here Next month again?
This is time sensitive, the xorn are time sensitive.
Doing Salladhor personally is as important as doinh this personally.
The dracolich is important, but we can push eveything else back until its done with.
Braavos is just something we want to do, i see the importance, but its not something with a time stamp.
Dorne we can just teleport there after scrying on whoever we end Up sending there.
The code of law, again, Will just be a cruel joke if we Skip on the actual ruling.
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It might not be all in two months, precisely, but we need to visit Dorne (that'll be a few days), visit Runestone to knight Waymar and resolve the thing with his sister (a few more days), Travel to Winterfell to nab Asha and talk to our cousin (more days), travel north of the wall to finally resurrect Elia Martell and our Mother (even more days).

We have a lot of stuff that requires us to spend time away from the Stepstones.

That's why we're delegating Westhaven, because we have so much other time sensitive stuff. We cannot afford to spend 10 days smoothing things over, because NPCs will not wait.
 
Duesal said:
Communing with the dracolich requires Viserys' social buffs. I'd much rather have him on the task.

1. This won't lose us Westhaven. Handing the reigns over to our party members doesn't mean we suddenly lose the island. They're competent and know what they're doing.

2. We plan to imbue Garin with a Sending so he can contact us if he needs us. Teleporting back to Westhaven is trivial.

3. Except that we're leaving mid-level party members in charge of Westhaven? They can easily put down a bunch of ghouls and ghasts if they decide to pop up. Oh, and if anyone gets bitten Tyene can heal them. Westhaven will not fall apart in our absence, and even if things get dangerous we can be called over by our party members. Also, I can almost guarantee the Sealord wouldn't give a damn about how we manage Westhaven beyond the fact that we wrested it away from Tyrosh.

4. Point. However, it's not so bad as "we'll rebel and society will fall apart if Viserys isn't there". The bulk of their respect is for Viserys, yes, but that's not to say they won't have a healthy amount of respect for the party members who helped us defeat the Maenads and saved the island.

5. We're communing if the sacrifice turns out not to work and we end up not getting the phylactery. I don't want to try to diplomance either, I'm just preparing for the worst.
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1. Lose in the sense of control, the good will of the people, the narrative we want to send etc. not the physical ownership of the island.

2. So why can't we go with Crakes plan to have someone doing that but still be on the island so people behave themselves? This is about abusing our cult of personality to keep things calm, that doesn't require intervention it requires presence.

3. Maybe true but a huge investment of PC time, instead of 5 to ten days you want to x3 it to 15-30 days of Garin, Waymar and Tyene time? Why?

5. If we aren't diplomancing then we don't need Viserys and if we can't do it the right way now I don't want to do it the wrong way, we can just get another sacrifice.

As for next months trip, I can't argue about that because I don't care for it in the slightest. Waymar's sister is on his father and I also don't like acting on OOC knowledge.

Did we have an accounting of the PC days breakdown because this doesn't seem right.

@DragonParadox how much time would another PC have to spend out of the month looking after Westhaven? Why is it potentially a full third of the month requiring personal attention of it's overlord? If this time is spent putting things back into order after it falling to pieces would that not be part of Law Making?
 
Something to keep in mind; once the Dracolich is removed from the Tower, the Plinth can be safely Teleported or Plane Shifted.
 
Diomedon said:
It might not be all in two months, precisely, but we need to visit Dorne (that'll be a few days), visit Runestone to knight Waymar and resolve the thing with his sister (a few more days), Travel to Winterfell to nab Asha and talk to our cousin (more days), travel north of the wall to finally resurrect Elia Martell and our Mother (even more days).

We have a lot of stuff that requires us to spend time away from the Stepstones.

That's why we're delegating Westhaven, because we have so much other time sensitive stuff. We cannot afford to spend 10 days smoothing things over, because NPCs will not wait.
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but we are not pushing those things back into the timeless void, just moving them back 10 days, they can all stay put for 10 days.
this is something that bothers me a lot about the turn system, we feel an artificial pressure about completing actions, when no such pressure exists. lets do things properly.
dammit people you are pushing my alignment to lawful! just let viserys do his duty to his kingdom.
 
Deliste said:
2. So why can't we go with Crakes plan to have someone doing that but still be on the island so people behave themselves? This is about abusing our cult of personality to keep things calm, that doesn't require intervention it requires presence.
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I'd actually be completely fine with staying on the island itself while having someone else do the work for us. My personal objection was for Viserys himself taking the reigns. Sorry @Crake if that was your original intent. It's just that your original vote looked like you wanted Viserys to be the one doing it.

But anyway, this could work out.

We could stick on the island and do our own thing (writing the Code of Laws) while our party members do the grunt work. It's 5-10 days for this and 10 days for Code of Laws. Perfect fit. And Viserys would get exposure to legal problems on a new island, thus helping with the Code of Laws.

@Goldfish, what do you think?
 
@DragonParadox can we please have the Westhaven vote in the context of turn planning because that is literally the only consideration it is being given.

Duesal said:
I'd actually be completely fine with staying on the island itself while having someone else do the work for us. My personal objection was for Viserys himself taking the reigns. Sorry @Crake if that was your original intent. It's just that your original vote looked like you wanted Viserys to be the one doing it.

But anyway, this could work out.

We could stick on the island and do our own thing (writing the Code of Laws) while our party members do the grunt work. It's 5-10 days for this and 10 days for Code of Laws. Perfect fit. And Viserys would get exposure to legal problems on a new island, thus helping with the Code of Laws.

@Goldfish, what do you think?
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Crake said:
Keep in mind DP, under my plan, I fully intend on us bringing some people to do all the "running stuff" portion of things. We're literally just showing the flag by being present whenever we're not out doing PC stuff.
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...are you kidding me? I all but spelled out that my plan involved explicitly not getting involved in any administration and letting our directly appointed people handle it. I only withdrew my plan in the first place because I recognized the necessity of certain actions and thought you meant we'd be losing time just by being there anyway.

@DragonParadox Consider this motherfucker contested again.
 
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Crake said:
...are you kidding me? I all but spelled out that my plan involved explicitly not getting involved in any administration and letting our directly appointed people handle it. I only withdrew my plan in the first place because I recognized the necessity of certain actions and thought you meant we'd be losing time just by being there anyway.

@DragonParadox Consider this motherfucker contested again.
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i am sorry, but i do feel this is important to do, and i dislike the general idea of not doing things because theres other stuff we need to complete "this turn".
 
Crake said:
...are you kidding me? I all but spelled out that my plan involved explicitly not getting involved in any administration and letting our directly appointed people handle it. I only withdrew my plan in the first place because I recognized the necessity of certain actions and thought you meant we'd be losing time just by being there anyway.
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Almost all our actions require us to be there in person, thus taking us away from Westhaven. Code of Laws is the only action this could work on that we could still do effectively in Westhaven itself. That didn't occur to me at the time, my apologies. :oops:
 
Reorder the plan. If you include being present in Westhaven while the drafting occurs, I'll still support Goldfish.
 
Can someone please post the current action plan with days required etc? That will resolve this either way very quickly.
 
@Duesal I'm in the middle of stuff at work and can't devote the time needed at the moment to argue against wasting time on this shit hole or putting together an acceptable plan.

[X] Duesal
 
[X] Set some of your companions to rule it
-[X] While you stay in Westhaven to keep morale up, finish writing your Code of Laws as your companions rule and organize in your stead.
-[X] Request that Garin take temporary governance of Westhaven for the next month or so, with the assistance of Waymar and Vee, to get the place settled and functional. Selyse would be welcome to join him.
-[X] Bring over a few of Alinor's people and some guards and get them working with whatever locals step up to the task
-[X] Ask Vee to try to make Westhaven self-sufficient. If necessary, she can gain assistance from the Lampad, plus Dany casting a Womb of the Earth spell.
 
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Inserted tally.

I'm frustrated too. Sorry this was so pointlessly difficult to wrangle, @Goldfish
Adhoc vote count started by Crake on Sep 19, 2017 at 10:27 AM, finished with 101945 posts and 15 votes.
  • [X] Set some of your companions to rule it
    -[X] While you stay in Westhaven to keep morale up, finish writing your Code of Laws as your companions rule and organize in your stead.
    -[X] Request that Garin take temporary governance of Westhaven for the next month or so, with the assistance of Waymar and Vee, to get the place settled and functional. Selyse would be welcome to join him.
    -[X] Ask Vee to try to make Westhaven self-sufficient. If necessary, she can gain assistance from the Lampad, plus Dany casting a Womb of the Earth spell.
    [X] Stay here and untangle it yourself
    -[X] Some capable administrators and guards will be placed in control of the town and get comfortable carrying out daily tasks, to which we expect them to continue these duties when we finally leave.
    -[X] Call a meeting with all the who's whos and busybodies, the important people of Westhaven who haven't been killed off, and display our ability to come and go at any time via teleportation. Make no secret that those who attempt to sow discontent between the people living here and our subordinates will experience our displeasure without delay.
    -[X] Ask Vee how long she thinks it would take for her to make Westhaven self-sufficient if she had assistance from the Lampad.
    [X] Set one of your companions to rule it
    -[X] Request that Garin take temporary governance of Westhaven for the next month or so, to get the place settled and functional. Selyse would be welcome to join him. We could also detach a dozen trained Minotaurs as additional muscle and Imbue him with a Sending spell in order to contact us if
    -[X] Ask Vee how long she thinks it would take for her to make Westhaven self-sufficient if she had assistance from the Lampad.
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