Prayer and sacrifice to a pantheon is split up along hierarchical lines according to previous agreement (even if that agreement is 'this is how much you can steal if you get away with it' as in the case of trickster gods.) Being part of a pantheon makes the gods resonate with each other, making it much easier for them t lean on each other, form and maintain common interests.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
-
- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
Prayer and sacrifice to a pantheon is split up along hierarchical lines according to previous agreement (even if that agreement is 'this is how much you can steal if you get away with it' as in the case of trickster gods.) Being part of a pantheon makes the gods resonate with each other, making it much easier for them t lean on each other, form and maintain common interests.
- Location
- Brazil
Really neat char sheet, I think I've said it before.
Could use something higher in terms of fire spells, for that sweet free empower, and some Knowledge Planes.
I just absolutely love the incredibly awesome bits of lore you come up with, DP.
And more importantly, everything is taxed.
I'm not so sure about a standalone Imperium Deity. Afaik, that's essentially our Mythic Path.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
As a fellow corporate drone, I share your pain, cube-brother....huh.
There really are parallels... does that make Mammon Hell's Baelish?
Edit: Oh wow... time flies by when you're a corporate slave.
Last update already came.
- Location
- Germany
No, our Mythic Path is "being the God-Emperor", not "being the Imperium". It's basically Mythic ranks for our polity.
- Location
- Argentina
Now, to turn every hanging into an empowering act towards our own deity...
Wait, no. it actually creates incentives to breed criminals. That's not the best way to do things.
Good night guys, see you tomorrow with more from everyone's favorite snake.
- Location
- Australia
And if we were to leverage Yss' contractual nature to force the original agreement into a form desirable to us then prayer and sacrifice to the Pantheon would enforce said agreement?
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
@DragonParadox How much will individual Warforged cost to craft?
Yes and no, you can certainly shape the agreement, though propaganda as much a direct appeals but a pantheon is not like a chain it's more like a common back account. A god can chose at any time to abandon it, but they loose the pool of shared power. You just have to make sure to pool of big enough that the various gods consider it worth the loss of independence.
I'll consider it in the morning, right now it is far too late to trust myself with numbers.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Sounds like the perfect time to decide...I'll consider it in the morning, right now it is far too late to trust myself with numbers.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Okay, it looks like base cost of each fighter craft increased a bit since the initial crafting schedule was drafted up for this month. We are doing 5,900 IM in enchanting for each fighter this month, so they'll need another 600 IM to bring them up to base model, before upgrades.
Ah, now I see where you got the 6,970 IM from; the remaining 600 plus the 6,370 IM for full upgrades.
I've already started to work on the preliminary crafting schedule for next month. The remainder of necessary enchanting has been added.
With a full crafting price of 12,870 IM, each of these things cost more than two Heralds. I think we can devote enough crafting capacity each month to add another one to our aerial fleet, but only after the Moonchaser is completed, which we are planning to start working on beginning in the 10th month.
- Location
- Australia
So can the original agreement include "do not compete" clauses etc?
Will the hypothetical created god of the Imperium be capable of "abandoning" either the Imperium or the duties it is seen to represent?
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
So for the moment, around a Squadron a year.
I expect to ramp that up to a full air-wing a year once we conquer the rest of Western Essos (and work out the rest of the provincial upgrades to really get the full mileage out of each one) and Westeros.
I.E around three fighter craft a month.
That would actually allow us to have a significant effect on the war effort against the Brazen Throne, for one thing, since we won't have enough magic to field an army in all but the most well prepared ground off the Material Plane, but can field large numbers of environmentally resilient attack craft in comparison. And I expect that to largely be where our allies will wind up relying upon us for (that and hopefully powerful special forces units).
- Location
- Brazil
It sounds like we'd be creating competition, tbh.
You are drawing a nearly invisible line between "God of Imperium" and "God-Ruler of Imperium". Especially when the later has themes like "not dying as long as the empire survives".
- Yes, it can, though whether you can sell them depends on how wide or narrow they are
- Technically yes but it would be committing suicide
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Gods are tenacious buggers who don't like to die. We have evidence.
@DragonParadox, Arena interlude tomorrow?
@DragonParadox, Arena interlude tomorrow?
- Location
- Australia
Fantastic, thankyou.
We can make 1 basically equivalent to 2 and we can sell seawater to Tritons so I'm liking the landscape ATM.
Goodnight DP
- Location
- Brazil
Seriously, this is sounding like an awful idea the more I think about it.
For one, our Mythic Path already is essentially becoming the God of the Imperium.
For two, we could trap ourselves with a God that might eventually turn on us, if not fully at least have serious disagreements, as we'd explicitly be making it so Viserys isn't the imperium. Said God is.
For one, our Mythic Path already is essentially becoming the God of the Imperium.
For two, we could trap ourselves with a God that might eventually turn on us, if not fully at least have serious disagreements, as we'd explicitly be making it so Viserys isn't the imperium. Said God is.
- Location
- washington
Eh I believe if we are going to get any divine ranks its not going to go beyond 0 which is basically just a hero god so not a real god at all. More like an especially divine empowered mortal like divine artifact empowered, an actual demi god, a construct made by a god and other cool stuff.
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God Crafting Proposal
- Location
- Germany
Alright, here is the idea how to cook us a sub-ordinate quasi-deity.
0. Why Should We Do This?
Pick one:
- POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!
- Become more like Greatest Uncle, though suffer none of the drawbacks.
- Wield the power of a true god without all the baggage of true divinity by being (by definition) in control of a non-sapient lesser deity.
- Because we can.
1. Preparations
To get Imperium Quasi-Deity going, we first need to prepare a "pond" to gather power in. Now, making a metaphysical bowl to gather power in would suffice, but ultimately, we want to make sure that it is a deity of the Imperium, not just of SD and we need to think long term. The deity will require a regular flow of power. One way to get this is sympathetic acts, but the Old Gods show us something else. Beside allowing the Old Gods to act near them and using them as eyes and ears, the Heart Trees are also power collectors. Beside the obvious sacrifices brought to them, they also allow them to sweep up some power from nearby.
So for the Imperium Deity, we should copy this concept. The best candidates for this are:
- Our highway network, which extends reach significantly and easily ties even large areas like the Disputed Lands together.
- Our braziers, which extend the reach nigh globally by now and can act as ears and mouths. Thanks to our off-plane activities, the reach is even extended to the elemental planes.
- Our mirrors, which allow the deity to see and show, again increasing the reach and especially allowing it to connect to a huge number of people at all times. This prevents the deity from growing detached from the common folk.
Now, to actually build that network, I would suggest Runecrafting and Dreamshaping. We already know that the highways have a noticeable footprint in the dreamlands, which is what prompted this whole idea. They are however just there right now and serve no deeper purpose. Since we know that space is very malleable in the dreamlands, we can turn the impression of a physical connection into a metaphysical one. Reshape the space around the roads to... contract, so that every stretch of road becomes every other stretch of road. In practice, that would mean that you walk on a dream-highway in dream-SD and take 5 steps. When you turn around, you have reached dream-Tyrosh. The same can be done to the Braziers and Mirrors, making them act as gates to each other in the metaphysical realm. This contracts the Imperium into a single, compact entity. On the physical side, we reinforce and anchor this by adding runes to the Braziers, Mirrors and highways, though in the latter case, setting up plinths with directions in regular intervals or on major intersections is definitely the better approach then engraving the whole length of them.
However, while this gives us a pool, it is a really large and unfocused one. For more controllable and desirable effects, we should add a mold. A seed around which the deity can crystallize.
2. The Imperial Palace
We had a debate about what domains would be neat for the pseudo-deity a while ago and ever since the talk about a Imperial Palace cam up, I've been mulling about layouts, symbolism and the like. The thing is, these concepts overlap greatly. We want something representative of the Imperium for either purpose and after putting some more thought into this right now, I've decided to add Artifice (Industry) to the list, since it rounds up the selection and allows to draw a neat Venn diagram. Physically, the Imperial Palace would have a central palace building, with the throne sitting directly in the center of it all, and 5 wings radiating outwards, each one dedicated to a specific purpose. This is reinforced in the dreamlands to provide mold for the deity and it's domains.
Liberation (Self-Realisation)
The first wing, pointing straight at the university / Scholarium district of the city, is kind of an extension of this area. It symbolizes the Imperiums dedication to knowledge, education and intellectual pursuit. The wing itself would house lecture halls, offices and the main campuses for the fine arts, law and economic courses. It would also get minor shrines for each imperial deity and the faiths are encouraged to educate priests and debate theology in these halls in recognition of religion being a valid way to pursue the betterment of the self. Lastly, it contains the administrative offices responsible for the imperial education system, governing everything from teachers in orphanages to the Scholarium branches.
It synergizes with the Law wing to the left, stressing the importance of skill and knowledge in the administration and law enforcement, and Artifice to the right, as the pursuit of excellence in a chosen craft is also an expression of knowledge and self-betterment.
Artifice (Industry)
To the right, we get the wing housing the Imperial Workshops. This includes everything from engineering to enchantment, both for theoretical and practical work. In addition, it offers space for workshops and offices of the engineering guild of SD, the Myrish Glassmakers Guild and any other such organization that has imperial favor and connections to get such prestigious rooms. Lastly, it contains offices of various other departments that are concerned with sponsoring their own research (such as better equipment for the military or trade ventures) and the practical application of the things done here in the field.
It synergizes with Liberation to the left, representing the physical expression of novel and exiting ideas, rooted in a well educated and capable mind, and with Travel to the right, as the work done here is done not just for scientific curiosity, but is meant to be carried to and change the world around it.
Travel (Trade)
Next comes the wing housing the main offices of the Administration branch of our government. All it does, from measuring the lands, bringing in taxes, to financing infrastructure has far reaching consequences and is either motivated by trade or meant to encourage it. Likewise, it will contain the imperial mint and the vaults where we store our cash reserves. In addition, it will contain the main offices of the embassies of our foreign allies.
It synergizes with Artifice on the left, as the creations of that wing and the Imperium at large are what fuels it's success in everything from infrastructure to commerce, and with War to the right, as protection of the lands and trade-routes is one of the most important aspects of the militaries future work.
War (Tactics)
Home to the high command of the three branches of our military, the Legion, the Imperial Fleet, and the Imperial Air-Fore. Here will be the main war-room of the realm, workplaces for high-ranking officers and of course the myriad of people needed for the supply train of a standing military. It will also house the barracks of the palace guard and training facilities for the education of high officer ranks.
It synergizes with Travel on the left, showing the importance of logistics and of course the traveling itself to any military operation, and with Law to the right, as the most vital difference between a military and a band of armed thugs is the laws that govern it and which are protected by it in turn.
Law (Legislation, Loyalty)
Last but certainly not least comes the wing housing the law enforcement agencies, from the Lawmen's main offices, to the main offices of the Inquisition, and the rooms for the highest courts of the realm. In addition, it will house archives for legal documents and a few holding cells for people facing judgement at one of those high courts. This is where laws are drafted, checked, re-drafted, double-checked and finally brought to the main palace to be passed. Afterwards, it will here be preserved and carried to the world to be enforced.
It synergizes with War on the left, as any law is worthless without enforcement and protection and the military is in any state the ultima ratio for this purpose, and with Liberation to the right, as a law has only value when it has been drafted, written, interpreted and enforcement with wisdom and forethought, requiring the highest dedication of those who wield this power at all times.
3. Starting It Up
Once all of this is in place, we can add the first sip of power to it. How this is done is ultimately of little concern, but a few options present themselves:
- Redirecting a Ley Line into the Imperial Palace. Pretty straightforward.
- Subverting divine champions to dedicate themselves to the Imperium above their (former) gods. Possible candidates for this are Brienne and Melisandre.
- Sacrificing stuff, preferably divine champions. Depending on the exact what and how, we might do rather grievous damage to an existing deity by this. Due to the number 5 being present, bleeding a high-level Avatar of Tiamat dry for this sounds very appropriate, doubly so since 4 out of 5 domains are opposed to her and it wouldn't it be funny as hell to steal her War domain, leaving her nothing but being a raging beast that can only destroy?
One way or another, once the seed is done, we enter a feedback loop. Thanks to sympathetic acts, the mold will fill all on it's own. Everything done in the wings of the palace are done by definition for the Imperium, so every stroke of the pen, every philosophical debate, every beat of the hammer and every account being balanced, all of it will fill the pool. And once we reach the tipping point, it will be no longer only the acts in the palace feeding it. Every criminal caught, every coin the tax-men collect, every Legionnaire on his patrol, they will all fill it further.
The best part about all of this is that the palace itself works as a stabilizer and anchor for the deity. No matter how many wars we have to fight and how many factories are created, the other branches are still there. They are a intrinsic part of the Imperium and nothing short of us declaring that the Liberation wing will be shut down to make room for the department of Evil Torture will change it. So we don't have to worry about a Burny scenario tilting the deity in a unpleasant direction.
So with this, we can effectively harvest energy from the whole realm and as the rightful ruler of the realm and thus the deity, use it as we deem fit. And the next time someone yells "For the Imperium! Charge!", it will mean something. And somewhere on the other end of the world, a lowly cleric will get his first 2nd level spell from that soldiers dedication.
0. Why Should We Do This?
Pick one:
- POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!
- Become more like Greatest Uncle, though suffer none of the drawbacks.
- Wield the power of a true god without all the baggage of true divinity by being (by definition) in control of a non-sapient lesser deity.
- Because we can.
1. Preparations
To get Imperium Quasi-Deity going, we first need to prepare a "pond" to gather power in. Now, making a metaphysical bowl to gather power in would suffice, but ultimately, we want to make sure that it is a deity of the Imperium, not just of SD and we need to think long term. The deity will require a regular flow of power. One way to get this is sympathetic acts, but the Old Gods show us something else. Beside allowing the Old Gods to act near them and using them as eyes and ears, the Heart Trees are also power collectors. Beside the obvious sacrifices brought to them, they also allow them to sweep up some power from nearby.
So for the Imperium Deity, we should copy this concept. The best candidates for this are:
- Our highway network, which extends reach significantly and easily ties even large areas like the Disputed Lands together.
- Our braziers, which extend the reach nigh globally by now and can act as ears and mouths. Thanks to our off-plane activities, the reach is even extended to the elemental planes.
- Our mirrors, which allow the deity to see and show, again increasing the reach and especially allowing it to connect to a huge number of people at all times. This prevents the deity from growing detached from the common folk.
Now, to actually build that network, I would suggest Runecrafting and Dreamshaping. We already know that the highways have a noticeable footprint in the dreamlands, which is what prompted this whole idea. They are however just there right now and serve no deeper purpose. Since we know that space is very malleable in the dreamlands, we can turn the impression of a physical connection into a metaphysical one. Reshape the space around the roads to... contract, so that every stretch of road becomes every other stretch of road. In practice, that would mean that you walk on a dream-highway in dream-SD and take 5 steps. When you turn around, you have reached dream-Tyrosh. The same can be done to the Braziers and Mirrors, making them act as gates to each other in the metaphysical realm. This contracts the Imperium into a single, compact entity. On the physical side, we reinforce and anchor this by adding runes to the Braziers, Mirrors and highways, though in the latter case, setting up plinths with directions in regular intervals or on major intersections is definitely the better approach then engraving the whole length of them.
However, while this gives us a pool, it is a really large and unfocused one. For more controllable and desirable effects, we should add a mold. A seed around which the deity can crystallize.
2. The Imperial Palace
We had a debate about what domains would be neat for the pseudo-deity a while ago and ever since the talk about a Imperial Palace cam up, I've been mulling about layouts, symbolism and the like. The thing is, these concepts overlap greatly. We want something representative of the Imperium for either purpose and after putting some more thought into this right now, I've decided to add Artifice (Industry) to the list, since it rounds up the selection and allows to draw a neat Venn diagram. Physically, the Imperial Palace would have a central palace building, with the throne sitting directly in the center of it all, and 5 wings radiating outwards, each one dedicated to a specific purpose. This is reinforced in the dreamlands to provide mold for the deity and it's domains.
Liberation (Self-Realisation)
The first wing, pointing straight at the university / Scholarium district of the city, is kind of an extension of this area. It symbolizes the Imperiums dedication to knowledge, education and intellectual pursuit. The wing itself would house lecture halls, offices and the main campuses for the fine arts, law and economic courses. It would also get minor shrines for each imperial deity and the faiths are encouraged to educate priests and debate theology in these halls in recognition of religion being a valid way to pursue the betterment of the self. Lastly, it contains the administrative offices responsible for the imperial education system, governing everything from teachers in orphanages to the Scholarium branches.
It synergizes with the Law wing to the left, stressing the importance of skill and knowledge in the administration and law enforcement, and Artifice to the right, as the pursuit of excellence in a chosen craft is also an expression of knowledge and self-betterment.
Artifice (Industry)
To the right, we get the wing housing the Imperial Workshops. This includes everything from engineering to enchantment, both for theoretical and practical work. In addition, it offers space for workshops and offices of the engineering guild of SD, the Myrish Glassmakers Guild and any other such organization that has imperial favor and connections to get such prestigious rooms. Lastly, it contains offices of various other departments that are concerned with sponsoring their own research (such as better equipment for the military or trade ventures) and the practical application of the things done here in the field.
It synergizes with Liberation to the left, representing the physical expression of novel and exiting ideas, rooted in a well educated and capable mind, and with Travel to the right, as the work done here is done not just for scientific curiosity, but is meant to be carried to and change the world around it.
Travel (Trade)
Next comes the wing housing the main offices of the Administration branch of our government. All it does, from measuring the lands, bringing in taxes, to financing infrastructure has far reaching consequences and is either motivated by trade or meant to encourage it. Likewise, it will contain the imperial mint and the vaults where we store our cash reserves. In addition, it will contain the main offices of the embassies of our foreign allies.
It synergizes with Artifice on the left, as the creations of that wing and the Imperium at large are what fuels it's success in everything from infrastructure to commerce, and with War to the right, as protection of the lands and trade-routes is one of the most important aspects of the militaries future work.
War (Tactics)
Home to the high command of the three branches of our military, the Legion, the Imperial Fleet, and the Imperial Air-Fore. Here will be the main war-room of the realm, workplaces for high-ranking officers and of course the myriad of people needed for the supply train of a standing military. It will also house the barracks of the palace guard and training facilities for the education of high officer ranks.
It synergizes with Travel on the left, showing the importance of logistics and of course the traveling itself to any military operation, and with Law to the right, as the most vital difference between a military and a band of armed thugs is the laws that govern it and which are protected by it in turn.
Law (Legislation, Loyalty)
Last but certainly not least comes the wing housing the law enforcement agencies, from the Lawmen's main offices, to the main offices of the Inquisition, and the rooms for the highest courts of the realm. In addition, it will house archives for legal documents and a few holding cells for people facing judgement at one of those high courts. This is where laws are drafted, checked, re-drafted, double-checked and finally brought to the main palace to be passed. Afterwards, it will here be preserved and carried to the world to be enforced.
It synergizes with War on the left, as any law is worthless without enforcement and protection and the military is in any state the ultima ratio for this purpose, and with Liberation to the right, as a law has only value when it has been drafted, written, interpreted and enforcement with wisdom and forethought, requiring the highest dedication of those who wield this power at all times.
3. Starting It Up
Once all of this is in place, we can add the first sip of power to it. How this is done is ultimately of little concern, but a few options present themselves:
- Redirecting a Ley Line into the Imperial Palace. Pretty straightforward.
- Subverting divine champions to dedicate themselves to the Imperium above their (former) gods. Possible candidates for this are Brienne and Melisandre.
- Sacrificing stuff, preferably divine champions. Depending on the exact what and how, we might do rather grievous damage to an existing deity by this. Due to the number 5 being present, bleeding a high-level Avatar of Tiamat dry for this sounds very appropriate, doubly so since 4 out of 5 domains are opposed to her and it wouldn't it be funny as hell to steal her War domain, leaving her nothing but being a raging beast that can only destroy?
One way or another, once the seed is done, we enter a feedback loop. Thanks to sympathetic acts, the mold will fill all on it's own. Everything done in the wings of the palace are done by definition for the Imperium, so every stroke of the pen, every philosophical debate, every beat of the hammer and every account being balanced, all of it will fill the pool. And once we reach the tipping point, it will be no longer only the acts in the palace feeding it. Every criminal caught, every coin the tax-men collect, every Legionnaire on his patrol, they will all fill it further.
The best part about all of this is that the palace itself works as a stabilizer and anchor for the deity. No matter how many wars we have to fight and how many factories are created, the other branches are still there. They are a intrinsic part of the Imperium and nothing short of us declaring that the Liberation wing will be shut down to make room for the department of Evil Torture will change it. So we don't have to worry about a Burny scenario tilting the deity in a unpleasant direction.
So with this, we can effectively harvest energy from the whole realm and as the rightful ruler of the realm and thus the deity, use it as we deem fit. And the next time someone yells "For the Imperium! Charge!", it will mean something. And somewhere on the other end of the world, a lowly cleric will get his first 2nd level spell from that soldiers dedication.
- Location
- washington
thanks azel. I'm really liking your thought process
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- Location
- Australia
I don't want to build a god, I want to manage a Pantheon. It's the logical conclusion of Viserys' relationship with divine beings.
- Location
- Brazil
Or it doesn't.
The entire thing relies on this gigantic assumption.
Also, for the why not: there's a ton of overlap with Viserys' own Ascension. It firmly places a deity above us.
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