A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[Azel]

Then please stop whining every time I disagree, however slightly, to anything you say.

Deal?

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No deal. If you want a productive discussion, don't open it by screeching at me that all my assumptions are totally wrong, that everything I propose is totally overpowered and that everything is totally underpriced.

I have argued long enough with you over the years to notice when you are trying to sink an idea by any means available and I reserve the right to call you on this.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

, due to your diametrically opposed opinions on yet another subject

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I don't see how you got there.

I merely have objections.

Pretty sure it was because once becoming a God, you cannot ever act outside of your intrinsic nature. You don't have the option. It removes agency, and also we have found that in some ways you cannot even act unless you have been given casus belli in a very literal sense.

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Yeah, and we've been warned that, well, it's a matter of carefully building up your legend and identity.

If your boundaries are "what you'd have done anyway", then, well, there are remarkably few cons.

2) So the disagreement comes from the competing ideas that "The Empire is Beholden to the Emperor" vs "The Emperor is Beholden to the Empire." I can't comment on that beyond "We must do research to determine if the latter is metaphorically true, and what would need to be done to make sure the former is true instead."

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See, my fear is of an incredibly powerful, smart and knowledgeable being getting resentful or simply greedy in one way or another. Gods aren't really tame.

The Big Evil himself got duped by the 15th, whom he had thought pretty damn snared.

Perhaps we can create a being that's naturally inclined to heed us, the logic in "the empire obeys the emperor" isn't flawed.

But it isn't absolute. And when talking about making this sort of leap, then we want to deal like Siths.

Hell, Viserys himself is an paragon of a ruler serving the people.

Furthermore, there's also the position of the followers changing it subtly, overtime, to the point when we come to but heads. That's sounds like a real issue with a god like that.

Your proposal of a quasi-sentient mechanism to collect and use god-juice is fantastic, and empowering it through the bureocracis of our realm is something I've always been on-board with.

But making an out-and-out "god of the empire"? A very dangerous proposition.

 

[Goldfish]

Seriously, @Azel, @TotallyNotEvil, can you two please shelve this argument for now? Maybe a gentlemen's agreement to wait until we have more information? With research and investigation among allied deities we should be able to work out whether TNE's concerns are valid, whether Azel's proposal is even feasible, etc.

Right now, though, you're the equivalent of 19th centuries philosophers arguing over whether its possible for humans to reach the moon.

 

[Azel]

But making an out-and-out "god of the empire"? A very dangerous proposition.

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That's not quite what I wrote...

- Wield the power of a true god without all the baggage of true divinity by being (by definition) in control of a non-sapient lesser deity.

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[Crake]

No deal. If you want a productive discussion, don't open it by screeching at me that all my assumptions are totally wrong, that everything I propose is totally overpowered and that everything is totally underpriced.

I have argued long enough with you over the years to notice when you are trying to sink an idea by any means available and I reserve the right to call you on this.

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Thing is, neither side is usually willing to accept that "I am doing what you are accusing me of doing" when you describe things like that, so couldn't it just be a little bit defensive knee-jerk causing both sides to take the most extreme perspective of the other side's opinions?

For one thing your big defensive thrust behind the idea is "I of course meant to devote significant amounts of resources and research to ensuring that this actually works out in the way I expect, and I am greatly offended you would accuse me of doing otherwise" but your initial idea post does not go to any length to make this clear. You either save it for a rejoinder (possibly with the best intentions of calming fears rather than weaponizing them and casting down the opposition's arguments against it) or omit it until someone points it out.

TotallyNotEvil on the other hand categorically has refused to actually commiserate on any feelings directed towards him on what he's doing.

I have noticed that if you even so much as mention him as doing something, he doesn't describe his actual intentions when prompted in this manner, he says "no you are actually in fact incorrect, I am confused as to how you came upon this misapprehension"... and that's it.

You both almost seem to relish in starting and throwing kindling onto arguments despite claiming you are both open to debate.

This is mainly why arguments between me and you end up in private conversation where we both lay out what we're really thinking about and the endpoint of the discussion is "wow, that makes a lot of sense, I appreciate you telling me that, now I can actually constructively respond to you in a way that doesn't just create more conflict".

Only I don't often see that happen with you two?

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

That's not quite what I wrote...

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Then it's my bad, because that's what I got from it.

Because as I said:

Your proposal of a quasi-sentient mechanism to collect and use god-juice is fantastic, and empowering it through the bureocracis of our realm is something I've always been on-board with.

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But because I can't just let this slide:

don't open it by screeching at me that all my assumptions are totally wrong

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Pointing out the plan relies on an assumption is not pointing out that they are wrong.

Is that they could very well be wrong, and the entire thing was depending on that not being the case.

How is this not valid criticism? At this point you are reading far too much into it every time I have any objection.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Only I don't often see that happen with you two?

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Because we've got used to arguing and anything immediately gets escalated?

 

[Walliseatscheese]

Motion for @Azel and @TotallyNotEvil to take it to PMs because the argument at this point is "I think you are arguing in bad faith, as per usual" or such is my understanding of it.

All in favor?

 

[Crake]

There is no way I didn't admit repeatedly in private to multiple people here that miscommunication was caused by something one person said. I usually start off with something I failed to clarify, because it makes the other side more willing to commiserate, that deescalates the conflict almost immediately, and then constructive conversation can occur.

This is admittedly harder to do in a public format. I encourage serious debate be taken to PMs, with public conversation as alternative always starting with "this is somewhat confusing to me, could you clarify a few points?" followed by itemized list in the most neutral and understated/non-reactionary language possible, because anything else often causes the "he wants to kill my idea" reaction which is (apparently) patently untrue?

 

[Azel]

But because I can't just let this slide:

Pointing out the plan relies on an assumption is not pointing out that they are wrong.

Is that they could very well be wrong, and the entire thing was depending on that not being the case.

How is this not valid criticism? At this point you are reading far too much into it every time I have any objection.

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Look. You are quoting 6 words out of context and put extra emphasis on you could be totally wrong.

Right after posting that you don't like the idea at all.

What am I supposed to read from this? I've already stated what my impression was.

 

[Goldfish]

@Artemis1992 @TalonofAnathrax I think ya'll were the ones who came up with Saenena's character sheet? I'm figuring up what gear we are going to craft for her.

If you had to pick some lower level PoSK for her, what would they be? Maybe one 3rd level, two or three 2nd level, and three or four 1st level?

@Everyone Your thoughts are welcome, too.

 

[Azel]

For one thing your big defensive thrust behind the idea is "I of course meant to devote significant amounts of resources and research to ensuring that this actually works out in the way I expect, and I am greatly offended you would accuse me of doing otherwise" but your initial idea post does not go to any length to make this clear. You either save it for a rejoinder (possibly with the best intentions of calming fears rather than weaponizing them and casting down the opposition's arguments against it) or omit it until someone points it out.

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This is an unstated assumption about everything I post in regards to long-term plans. I've gotten a lot of flak for pushing for preliminary research without a complete write-up of the end-goal, so it's either or. I can try sneaking in baseline research and get criticized for "pushing pet projects" or I post huge tracts about my goals and get criticized for "making wild assumptions".

I've had this very idea for quite a while now and waited until now, since now we got the answers from Yss that prove the feasibility of the basic concept. Of course there are still things we don't know and I've even stated this fact before even posting the wall of text.

Well, given what we just learned about the divine power cycle, I think we got the theoretical grounding to make our own god. Next month, we get the stuff from Bloodraven on how the Old Gods came to be, so we should have at least a good starting point for the practical side of things.

And it incidentally neatly aligns with my ideas so far, so I think we are on a good way towards that Imperium Pseudo-Deity.

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I honestly don't know what else is expected of me.

 

[Crake]

This is an unstated assumption about everything I post in regards to long-term plans. I've gotten a lot of flak for pushing for preliminary research without a complete write-up of the end-goal, so it's either or. I can try sneaking in baseline research and get criticized for "pushing pet projects" or I post huge tracts about my goals and get criticized for "making wild assumptions".

I've had this very idea for quite a while now and waited until now, since now we got the answers from Yss that prove the feasibility of the basic concept. Of course there are still things we don't know and I've even stated this fact before even posting the wall of text.

I honestly don't know what else is expected of me.

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With no horse in this race, and no overwhelming impression that anyone here minds people pursuing their own interests to some degree when it comes to proposals, I can only shake my head and hope the two of you reach your intended audiences rather than continuing to talk past each other.

Because after a certain point "I must slay the dragon that is the opposition" becomes "engender toxicity that makes the uninvested feel unwelcome".

This is a serious part of my complaints that it is difficult enough as it is to encourage new posters to take an active part in driving discussion, and I am not even asking them to write up plans.

Not gonna dredge up past instances where this has been the case, seeing as how it is largely unproductive. And I don't feel like being on the receiving end of anymore vitriol because I am fully willing to admit I am sensitive and it's just refraining from speaking half of my mind on things that come up around here that keeps most of what I post consumable by the average reader.

See Egoo who has very niche interests when sometimes I get out of hand. His eyes glaze over a bit and he asks if he's the only one.

That's what happens with probably every non-regular poster whenever these 'debates' come up. They don't generally seem inviting to other opinions, just grasping onto the first dissenting one in hopes of having a solid base when the vote arrives.

I saw several people comment on your idea and the majority of your posts over the last few pages were addressed to TNE.

 

[Goldfish]

This is an unstated assumption about everything I post in regards to long-term plans. I've gotten a lot of flak for pushing for preliminary research without a complete write-up of the end-goal, so it's either or. I can try sneaking in baseline research and get criticized for "pushing pet projects" or I post huge tracts about my goals and get criticized for "making wild assumptions".

I've had this very idea for quite a while now and waited until now, since now we got the answers from Yss that prove the feasibility of the basic concept. Of course there are still things we don't know and I've even stated this fact before even posting the wall of text.

I honestly don't know what else is expected of me.

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Biggest thing you can do is just let the research take it where DP wills it. Your ideas in this instance got a lot of positive responses. Don't sour that by arguing incessantly with @TotallyNotEvil.

The idea is out there now. We'll probably talk about it multiple times in the coming months.

We have plenty of researchers and we are training more of them every month. We can put time and resources into the question of what is divinity and how to spark it, nurture it, and shape it. That's going to take a long time, though.

And to be blunt, if you want to argue with TNE over this, take it to PMs. None of us want to see it.

 

[Crake]

And to be blunt, if you want to argue with TNE over this, take it to PMs. None of us want to see it.

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Even Goldfish was less polite than I was about it. That's saying something.

 

[Azel]

Biggest thing you can do is just let the research take it where DP wills it. Your ideas in this instance got a lot of positive responses. Don't sour that by arguing incessantly with @TotallyNotEvil.

The idea is out there now. We'll probably talk about it multiple times in the coming months.

We have plenty of researchers and we are training more of them every month. We can put time and resources into the question of what is divinity and how to spark it, nurture it, and shape it. That's going to take a long time, though.

And to be blunt, if you want to argue with TNE over this, take it to PMs. None of us want to see it.

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The issue is the amount of research time required for all the other stuff. We already have calls to free the blue wyrmling (something I'm extremely meh about), you inquired about warforged, we got magic items, Scholarium courses...

The research slots are hugely contested already, so I'm quite definitely feeling the pressure to make a strong case here or see the idea languish in between 20 research actions until forever.

This is especially petinent since I actually wanted to push to build the Imperial Palace next month and since this is tangentially related to the layout and design...

 

[Sqweaktoy]

So two entirely separate things.
1. I fully lean further towards 'The Emperor serves the Empire" as an ideal state, and I think Viserys wants what's best for his people. Having said that we are an absolute autocrat and our whole government is designed to reinforce that status. Basically our whole realms culture and laws scream "all legitimacy comes from the Imperium, and all the Imperium's Authority comes directly from The Imperitor." I find it hard to believe that we would end up dealing with a rebellious teenage highway diety in a few hundred years going "whatever Dad, I'm the empire, I don't have to listen to you!" With the structure we have in place. The idea of making a bank of divine energy we can use just like any other bank (that is, use the currency contained therein to make more of itself and improve our stuff) fits really well.
2. I am not terribly Personally fond of the idea itself.

 

[Azel]

2. I am not terribly Personally fond of the idea itself.

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Well, it's the best we got if we ever want to wield any divine power ourselves. Accumulating it directly in Viserys is a big no-no for the anti-divinite faction out of fear that it might spontaneously trigger ascension and foisting of the whole power to Yss or some other deity is a much worse option in my opinion.

 

[Goldfish]

The issue is the amount of research time required for all the other stuff. We already have calls to free the blue wyrmling (something I'm extremely meh about), you inquired about warforged, we got magic items, Scholarium courses...

The research slots are hugely contested already, so I'm quite definitely feeling the pressure to make a strong case here or see the idea languish in between 20 research actions until forever.

This is especially petinent since I actually wanted to push to build the Imperial Palace next month and since this is tangentially related to the layout and design...

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There are a lot of things that only certain people are capable of researching to any useful degree.

Your interest in the divine? We can put Dany and/or Malarys on it. An Arcanum can assist them.

Warforged? That's an Anu project.

Scholarium courses? Not really anything on the horizon for that once the current projects finish, but we have multiple instructors and Scholarium graduates capable of working on that.

Blue Wyrmling? I could care less about it, too, but it's a long standing desire for a lot of people, so we can put Naria on it. Or Mercy or Valeria. They all have the necessary skills.

And honestly, next month is probably too soon to start working on the Imperial Palace. We'll have a lot of irons in the fire, with developing Westeros issues, consolidating power in Essos, infrastructure upgrades across the Imperium, construction of the Moonchaser (which is going to be a huge effort all on its own), etc. We also need to start putting serious effort into the infiltration of the City of Brass. That's not going to be a minor background action done by Inquisition mooks.

Personally, I would be more comfortable waiting to begin construction on the palace until after we finish sabotaging the Soul Forge or whatever it's called in the City of Brass. We can put a suitable person on the task, perhaps Beryl, to begin conducting land surveys, mapping potentially beneficial ley lines, beginning to develop a list of necessary building materials, preliminary blue prints, etc., in the mean time.

 

[Sqweaktoy]

Well, it's the best we got if we ever want to wield any divine power ourselves. Accumulating it directly in Viserys is a big no-no for the anti-divinite faction out of fear that it might spontaneously trigger ascension and foisting of the whole power to Yss or some other deity is a much worse option in my opinion.

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I unfortunately have to agree with this. The whole 'Cap'n Crunch's: Whoops all Dieties!' Aspect of D&D metaphysics along with the fact that I feel like Viserys as he is would not tolerate the kind of restrictions on his actions a diety must have means that while it doesn't exactly fit my preference, this is the best of a bad lot for me. You got my backing about it, however reluctant.

 

[Crake]

The issue is the amount of research time required for all the other stuff. We already have calls to free the blue wyrmling (something I'm extremely meh about), you inquired about warforged, we got magic items, Scholarium courses...

The research slots are hugely contested already, so I'm quite definitely feeling the pressure to make a strong case here or see the idea languish in between 20 research actions until forever.

This is especially petinent since I actually wanted to push to build the Imperial Palace next month and since this is tangentially related to the layout and design...

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This entire post is what I don't like about the thread, but I think I've said enough times I don't really think it's anyone's fault.

Until it starts actually making the atmosphere in-thread toxic, anyway.

I will say this much, getting things voted on shouldn't literally come down to "every man for himself" and the equivalent of tossing a proverbial anthropomorphic idea into a ring with a knife taped to its head until everything else in there is dead.

 

[Snowfire]

tossing a proverbial anthropomorphic idea into a ring with a knife taped to its head until everything else in there is dead.

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Crake, I know this is going to sound really strange (for me, even) but thank you.

I desperately needed the laughter this image gave me.

 

[Crake]

I'm just trying to lighten things up.

 

[Azel]

There are a lot of things that only certain people are capable of researching to any useful degree.

Your interest in the divine? We can put Dany and/or Malarys on it. An Arcanum can assist them.

Warforged? That's an Anu project.

Scholarium courses? Not really anything on the horizon for that once the current projects finish, but we have multiple instructors and Scholarium graduates capable of working on that.

Blue Wyrmling? I could care less about it, too, but it's a long standing desire for a lot of people, so we can put Naria on it. Or Mercy or Valeria. They all have the necessary skills.

And honestly, next month is probably too soon to start working on the Imperial Palace. We'll have a lot of irons in the fire, with developing Westeros issues, consolidating power in Essos, infrastructure upgrades across the Imperium, construction of the Moonchaser (which is going to be a huge effort all on its own), etc. We also need to start putting serious effort into the infiltration of the City of Brass. That's not going to be a minor background action done by Inquisition mooks.

Personally, I would be more comfortable waiting to begin construction on the palace until after we finish sabotaging the Soul Forge or whatever it's called in the City of Brass. We can put a suitable person on the task, perhaps Beryl, to begin conducting land surveys, mapping potentially beneficial ley lines, beginning to develop a list of necessary building materials, preliminary blue prints, etc., in the mean time.

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I would rather not spread out the research actions over half a dozen projects. That just means everything moves at a glacial pace instead of finishing a few things quickly and reaping the rewards before moving on to other stuff.

As for the palace, I would like to have it ready in time for our coronation, which was tacitly planned post-Volantis. And since things are moving there, we might want to get things moving on the construction site.

 

[Duesal]

I would rather not spread out the research actions over half a dozen projects. That just means everything moves at a glacial pace instead of finishing a few things quickly and reaping the rewards before moving on to other stuff.

As for the palace, I would like to have it ready in time for our coronation, which was tacitly planned post-Volantis. And since things are moving there, we might want to get things moving on the construction site.

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We should fast-track Lya's research on Runic lore, then. Can we finish Dark Sister after we make the Harbinger?