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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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w34v3r said:
Not really. I mean out psykered yeah, but everything else no. Pre-fall humans had tech and infrastructure well on par or even surpassing the aeldari in every other category. It's just that the Eldar built from that assumption of baseline psykic ability and thus could use similar or even lesser mastery over the materium to get better results thanks to their mastery of the immaterium.

As far as out lasting them... Do you mean in total duration? Sure but like that's not really important here.
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I'm not convinced. I think there's a quote somewhere (2E Eldar Codex?) saying that part of the reason the Eldar fell because they had run out of things to learn (that weren't abhorrent). They'd reached the point in the civ game where you've completed the tech tree and there's nothing to spend your research points on. If that's the case, humnaity can't have higher trchnology in any category, the best it's possible to do is equal the Eldar tech, as there is nothing better.

In terms of Infrastructure, there are (now empty) Eldar Webway realms where the radius of the Wraithbone sphere forming the walls is 1 AU, and that surface is a city, with towers so tall that they cross to the other side of the sphere.

That's a city with the surface area of six hundred million Earths, and the floor space of those towers will only make that go up.

And that's just one Webway junction realm amongst many.

There were apparently one tredecillion (10^42) Eldar Pre-Fall, although it's unclear how many were incarnate at any one time.
 
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w34v3r said:
Unlikely, Necron-tech is blatantly better than Aeldari. Aeldari clearly not at the tech cap.
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We don't actually know that's true.

The Haemonculi's technology is non-psyker and seems on a par with Necron-tech. They had to strip out the psyker parts, but they clearly understand the base principles required to make 'conventional' gear of the same grade (person portable black hole containers, etc).

We don't really have much in the way of examples of Pre-Fall Eldar peak tech. Particularly non warp-tech, because why bother even if you know how, when you're already an immensely powerful psyker.
 
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Alratan said:
We don't actually know that's true.

The Haemonculi's technology is non-psyker and seems on a par with Necron-tech. They had to strip out the psyker parts, but they clearly understand the base principles required to make 'conventional' gear of the same grade (person portable black hole containers, etc).

We don't really have much in the way of examples of Pre-Fall Eldar peak tech. Particularly non warp-tech, because why bother even if you know how, when you're already an immensely powerful psyker.
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Well, regardless of how it was in canon, in this quest Mechanis has stated that Peak Humanity was at least in the same ballpark as the Dominion and Necrons, with their own specialties.
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
Well, regardless of how it was in canon, in this quest Mechanis has stated that Peak Humanity was at least in the same ballpark as the Dominion and Necrons, with their own specialties.
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I've always liked the idea that Necrons and the Old Ones were peak Materium and Immaterium mastery respectively, with little direct cross into the other territory.

Dominion and Dark Age Humanity were more of a mix, with Dominion specced towards Immaterium and Humanity specced towards Materium.
 
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Random tangent, but I had an idea that might work at for shoring up our weaknesses, helping humanity, exploiting humanity and guiding humanity away from xenophobia all at once:

Forge a Machine God.

Now, hear me out: A lot of the issues with Ynnead was that she was directly contesting Slaanesh, and as such needed to be really powerful, basically the same mix of Natural and Constructed God as the Phoenix Court and Slaanesh, plus enough raw power to match up to a full Chaos God. A Machine God would, at most, have to contest Vashtorr and could potentially help us make our lower-tier blessing tech work better/not be immediately possessed. And, since Constructed Gods can't gain domains that aren't closely in-line with their existing ones, Mechanicus worship should empower it without giving it Xenophobia issues, with its revelations and blessings to them possibly tempering those already present. If the Mechanicus are already forming a nascent Natural God, we might even be able to get some of that hybrid vigor, if at the risk of it getting out of control without sufficient god-wrangling.

Plus, making it a multi-species god of knowledge and technology should also protect it from Slaanesh's claim to the Phoenix Throne, since it wouldn't be a member of the Phoenix Court.
 
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JevvyPython said:
Wouldn't the best solution to the Emperor forming a shitty Pan-Human empire be to form the rudiments of a restored Human society ourselves? He broke type to become the direct ruler out of a lack of other options. If his MO is to support from the shadows giving him something to work with that's already shaped in a more benign direction is one solution. Hell if we were able to improve things a little to give his new incarnation a less terrible childhood than a Terran in the Age of Strife he would probably be less inclined to default to behaving like a warlord.
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That's an undertaking way beyond us. The Diaspora Eldar are numbered in the low tens of billions IIRC. Humanity is large in numbers across many worlds throughout the galaxy.

You'd need a powerful, fast, and large operation spreading across the galaxy to reunite them and get them up to speed, and that requires something like the Great Crusade in scope and backing.

The Great Crusade or its equivalent will be taking place in the near future regardless, so why devote so much effort and resources to doing it ourselves a little bit sooner, assuming we even could? It's easy for humanity's homeworld and industrial core to assert geopolitical hegemony, especially when you're mostly alone in a big scary galaxy and the new Imperium or whatever has great fleets backing it. Not so much when you're an alien species that, at best, shows up when needed and almost never otherwise. We would need to be directly and heavily and constantly involved to get a new galactic human polity off the ground and heading in the right direction without it being corrupted or falling into dysfunction.

Realistically speaking, it'd be far easier and more practical to just give some help and advice to the Big A when the time comes. Him breaking type wasn't the problem; as we saw, Dark Age humanity managed to collapse all on its own. It had a lot more to do with being a really shitty parent and careless leader in his canon incarnation. Give him better options and some good counsel, and he'd probably be a lot less reckless.
 
It also may serve to limit the impact the Dragon of Mars has on them as well. Or at least blunt it.
 
Couple things:

A machine god is a nifty idea, the problem is that active god crafting is a long game for Eldar. Unless we can dig up some Tuatha, we're probably better off trying to create a narrative of gods escaping from Slaanesh's guts.

Next, not sure we can do hybrid gods, I mean no reason not to try in this case, just ... You know ... We're not exactly normal mortals, our relationship with the warp is a bit different.

We don't have to do a huge Imperium style thing, we could aim for a series of smaller more well run polities in and around areas of interest, less pet empire, more good neighbors kind of deal. They'd be friendly ports in real space, possible trade partners for bulk goods, and a trip wire for disruptive elements like Drukhari, Orks, and other such rabble.

If we wanna get on big A's good side we've missed the obvious approach: give him dinosaurs. That should solve most diplomatic blockades with humans.
 
Sure. Like I said, once we have a way to the appropriate area of space
The Froggy Ninja said:
Forge a Machine God.
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I'm not sure that would work given Slaanesh's claim is through the Phoenix throne via the fact that Aeldari aree the Deva's of their gods and just worshipping something outside the Phoenix throne doesn't refute that claim.

In addition I think we are far more likely to either soul forge a denial of Slaanesh's claim or assist Eldrad in raising Cegorach as Lord of Misrule well ahead of stumbling upon machine gods and figuring out how to forge one in a way that doesn't leave it vulnerable to Slaanesh.
Mechanis said:
[ ] A Shield of Spirit (-1 point)
The first to reject Excess, the Exodites show a path, for their world-spirits guard them against the Dark Prince's predations. Could one then, cultivate such a spirit on a Craftworld? A single Starship? Or even perhaps a suit of armor? Smaller spirits would likely be weaker, true, yet could you not craft them in ironic mirror to the Ruinous Ones; many parts of a greater whole, more than the mere sum of its constituents? And even if not, many small things working in concert can shift mountains, even without such connection—Isha's domain provides more than enough examples of this principle to all with eyes to see!
Develop Spiritcrafting, imbuing everything you make with world-spirit analogs that guard against Chaos. Alone, the Spirit of a sword or breastplate might fall to even the least Deamon, yet such spirits will never be alone, and with the might of hundreds of fellows in a Warhost behind them, even the greatest of Neverborn will learn to fear their bite.
(Obviously, this is not a perfect solution, since it's very much reliant on having lots of spirit imbued stuff on all the time, and even then they can get overpowered, but it does make your stuff even more possession-resistant as a happy side effect!)
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it also reads fairly similar to a shield of Spirits, which while not bad, was only a partial protection. afterall, Mechanus can still be corrupted by Chaos and Daemons can usurp Machine spirits under the right circumstances.

to be honest I'm not sure why we would even bother reconsidering our method of rejecting Slaanesh. we know for a fact we have completed the preliminary steps unimaginably ahead of schedule(1 in 8 billion chance) and have narrative indication of installing Cegorach being plausible. two acknowledged courses of action with a confirmed chance of success. why gamble on a machine god, if we can even do that in a practical amount of time?
 
w34v3r said:
We don't have to do a huge Imperium style thing, we could aim for a series of smaller more well run polities in and around areas of interest, less pet empire, more good neighbors kind of deal. They'd be friendly ports in real space, possible trade partners for bulk goods, and a trip wire for disruptive elements like Drukhari, Orks, and other such rabble.
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yeah. this is what I was talking about earlier. this is just going to naturally happen. it's already happening with the various factions collecting followers, and forming a sort of Aeldari Crusade to collect Soul Stones around Beil-Tan's punishment, and setting factional goals their all working towards within their main region. Saimhann is already a sort of head of a multi regional Oligarchy of exodite worlds, they just need to have some of the Exodites bad ruling habits corrected. the Asuryani and Iyanden are both headed in this direction as well as Ulthwe.

the galaxy of tomorrow is home not to a bunch of individual craft & exodite worlds which by the sound of things still managed to be a serious obstacle to Humanity becoming a galactic hegemon, but at least 4 Aeldari regional or multi regional federations of worlds each with effectively more firepower than current major craftworlds between technological advanced and eventual curse nullification. it's very much a galaxy in which a Human Galactic Hegemon can only exist at the Aeldari's tolerance.
The Froggy Ninja said:
Forge a Machine God.
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I'm not sure that would work given Slaanesh's claim is through the Phoenix throne via the fact that Aeldari aree the Deva's of their gods and just worshipping something outside the Phoenix throne doesn't refute that claim.

In addition I think we are far more likely to either soul forge a denial of Slaanesh's claim or assist Eldrad in raising Cegorach as Lord of Misrule well ahead of stumbling upon machine gods and figuring out how to forge one in a way that doesn't leave it vulnerable to Slaanesh.
Mechanis said:
[ ] A Shield of Spirit (-1 point)
The first to reject Excess, the Exodites show a path, for their world-spirits guard them against the Dark Prince's predations. Could one then, cultivate such a spirit on a Craftworld? A single Starship? Or even perhaps a suit of armor? Smaller spirits would likely be weaker, true, yet could you not craft them in ironic mirror to the Ruinous Ones; many parts of a greater whole, more than the mere sum of its constituents? And even if not, many small things working in concert can shift mountains, even without such connection—Isha's domain provides more than enough examples of this principle to all with eyes to see!
Develop Spiritcrafting, imbuing everything you make with world-spirit analogs that guard against Chaos. Alone, the Spirit of a sword or breastplate might fall to even the least Deamon, yet such spirits will never be alone, and with the might of hundreds of fellows in a Warhost behind them, even the greatest of Neverborn will learn to fear their bite.
(Obviously, this is not a perfect solution, since it's very much reliant on having lots of spirit imbued stuff on all the time, and even then they can get overpowered, but it does make your stuff even more possession-resistant as a happy side effect!)
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it also reads fairly similar to a shield of Spirits, which while not bad, was only a partial protection. afterall, Mechanus can still be corrupted by Chaos and Daemons can usurp Machine spirits under the right circumstances.

to be honest I'm not sure why we would even bother reconsidering our method of rejecting Slaanesh. we know for a fact we have completed the preliminary steps unimaginably ahead of schedule(1 in 8 billion chance) and have narrative indication of installing Cegorach being plausible. two acknowledged courses of action with a confirmed chance of success. why gamble on a machine god, if we can even do that in a practical amount of time?
 
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I'd like to see some focus on dealing with the Kairos mark. That thing is a running pain in the ass and it's never going to be more vulnerable to disruption than right the hell now.

Edit: Also this way Tzeentch can't tattle on us when we're about to kick nurgle or slaanesh in the junk.
 
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w34v3r said:
I'd like to see some focus on dealing with the Kairos mark. That thing is a running pain in the ass and it's never going to be more vulnerable to disruption than right the hell now.

Edit: Also this way Tzeentch can't tattle on us when we're about to kick nurgle or slaanesh in the junk.
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It actually might. Specialized Wards have some effect, and it's possible that with prolonged use it might lose its grip. But yeah, killing Kairos or designing perfect wards or something would probably be a good thing to work towards.
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
It actually might. Specialized Wards have some effect, and it's possible that with prolonged use it might lose its grip. But yeah, killing Kairos or designing perfect wards or something would probably be a good thing to work towards.
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the post in question is referring to the fact that the eye of Tzeench is designed to grow stronger over time, so it's the one curse where focusing on it while it's still fairly unstable should be priority.
 
Randino Treviani said:
the post in question is referring to the fact that the eye of Tzeench is designed to grow stronger over time, so it's the one curse where focusing on it while it's still fairly unstable should be priority.
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That's true, but it's supposed to get stronger over time by slowly digging its hooks in. It may be possible to effectively starve it if digging in costs more energy than it provides. I still think that we should be more proactive in giving it that "significant disruption", just playing devils advocate that its instability means preventative action may prevent it from getting stronger in the first place.
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
That's true, but it's supposed to get stronger over time by slowly digging its hooks in. It may be possible to effectively starve it if digging in costs more energy than it provides. I still think that we should be more proactive in giving it that "significant disruption", just playing devils advocate that its instability means preventative action may prevent it from getting stronger in the first place.
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this is not the way it works. it can be disrupted deliberately, be it through some manner of warp casting, or by vanishing fateweaver. it's not an animal we can starve to death. Kaeros is perfectly capable of feeding it power to allow it to keep stabilizing.
 
How are we supposed to break the Eye of Tzeench curse if it requires killing Kairos? The guy's abilities and nature mean that even getting him to do battle with us is basically impossible, and he'd almost certainly never even risk it even if his precognition told him it was safe because even Cegorach would intervene heavily if given the opportunity.

Like, at least rescuing Isha is theoretically feasible if extremely difficult. Killing Kairos when he would actively avoid battle and has every interest and characteristic to avoid battle at every turn is fundamentally unfeasible.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
How are we supposed to break the Eye of Tzeench curse if it requires killing Kairos? The guy's abilities and nature mean that even getting him to do battle with us is basically impossible, and he'd almost certainly never even risk it even if his precognition told him it was safe because even Cegorach would intervene heavily if given the opportunity.

Like, at least rescuing Isha is theoretically feasible if extremely difficult. Killing Kairos when he would actively avoid battle and has every interest and characteristic to avoid battle at every turn is fundamentally unfeasible.
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Technically killing Kairos isn't required it's just the most straightforward solution. Plus, it's possible to summon Daemons against their will. It would require, at minimum, access to the Black Library to get enough lore on him to construct such a ritual, but it's possible. Another relatively brute-force answer would be to use our knowledge of the Curse, Draylin's lore and Eldrad's talent with anti-chaos techniques to craft a specific counter-ritual and attack the curse directly.

I'm sure there are other ways to cause a "significant disruption" too, but part of the great thing about the Moot was that this is Eldrad"s problem now. I mean, we'll obviously help, but the people actually specialized in spellcraft and divination have our data on the Eye and have more incentive to blind it than we do, since divination specialists probably spend a bigger chunk of their Seer AP on scrying.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
How are we supposed to break the Eye of Tzeench curse if it requires killing Kairos? The guy's abilities and nature mean that even getting him to do battle with us is basically impossible, and he'd almost certainly never even risk it even if his precognition told him it was safe because even Cegorach would intervene heavily if given the opportunity.

Like, at least rescuing Isha is theoretically feasible if extremely difficult. Killing Kairos when he would actively avoid battle and has every interest and characteristic to avoid battle at every turn is fundamentally unfeasible.
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we don't have to permanently kill him. just force him to manifest in the Materium so Draylin can do his infinite light needles impalation spell, which is just a solution.
Mechanis said:
"Fortunately, this is perhaps the weakest of that which is arrayed against us. I would not doubt, lord Farseer," Aresh-Vul nodded at the leader of Ulthwe in respect "that a method of shattering it entirely could be found, should one seek it. Even if that was simply to drag a certain Daemon screaming from the Warp and forcibly banish him again."
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other methods of shattering it are feasible, forcibly banishing Kaeros just the most obvious. our one in eight billion success put us at least half a century ahead of schedule in terms of breaking the curse.

The Froggy Ninja said:
It would require, at minimum, access to the Black Library to get enough lore on him to construct such a ritual, but it's possible.
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there is no black library and won't be for centuries at least, possibly not existing in it's original form at all if the abandoned craft world it was constructed inside of is never abandoned. a better avenue of cooperative research would be Ulthwe, we are on very good terms with after the Aeldmoot, but even that isn't strictly necessary while draylin lives.
The Froggy Ninja said:
I'm sure there are other ways to cause a "significant disruption" too, but part of the great thing about the Moot was that this is Eldrad"s problem now. I mean, we'll obviously help, but the people actually specialized in spellcraft and divination have our data on the Eye and have more incentive to blind it than we do, since divination specialists probably spend a bigger chunk of their Seer AP on scrying.
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based on what we've seen narratively Eldrad is a bit distracted between survivalist faction agenda's, his intrigue over Cegorach as Lord of Misrule, and his personal Rune magic project. between our focus on the problem and Draylin's superior experience we'll likely happen on a solution first and nearly turn to Eldrad for aid in executing it. they are probably spending AP on it, but it's not a creation centric goal for them the way it is for us, and once we have diplomacy up we can probably get our allies to chip in with their seer AP as well.
 
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