I misread that as Ogryn at first and my mind went to silly places.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Speaking of descriptions, how many system slots does our vehicle scale conversion field generators take up?
Well, a super heavy slot does take 30 system slots, so I could see one basically being built around a single super-heavy weapon and still having space for two grav fields and a holo-field.
A super heavy singularity projector could be a very potent direct fire artillery, a gravity sheer bombard might be a comedically good tank and heavy infantry killer at close-ish range, and, as you say, a fusion bombard could work very nicely.
You'd basically be building the vehicle around the gun, as I say above, but that's not unusual for a tank.
You'd probably need to hope it could have three extra engines to buy a heavy weapon to shoot at infantry though
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Just going pure slots wise you could put a superheavy weapon slot, and have just enough system slots for a holofield and two grav shields. With the light grav vehicle iteration having the options for two grav engine enhancements giving + 2 system slots, we then should be able to get at least that many on a heavy Chasis. Ideally we could get three grav enhancements and have enough for a non-bulky conversion shield, hypothetical third grav shield, or a heavy weapon turret.
Not sure a heavy is worth it for a superheavy weapon armed SPG.
We've got a couple of superheavy design proposals floating around with twin superheavy Fusion Mortars and I'm pretty sure a single superheavy with two Fusion Mortar's would cost less than 2 heavies with a superheavy Fusion Mortar each.
That said, not sure how a superheavy chassis can only have 60 System Slots when our existing superheavy chassis has 80 System Slots divided into 30 spare System Slots, 1 Superheavy Weapon Slot (30 System Slots), 2 Vehicle Weapon Slots (12 System Slots), 2 Heavy Weapon Slots (6 System Slots), and 2 Ranged Weapon Slots (2 System Slots).
@Mechanis was 60 System Slots a typo or are Superheavy Weapon Slots cheaper when they come prepackaged into the chassis?
Edit:
Assuming Superheavy Weapon Slots aren't cheaper when prepackaged the heavy chassis come out even worse.
A heavy chassis would use up the vast majority of it's 38 System slots (30/38) just for the one Superheavy Weapon Slot and would have far fewer system slots left for self defense weapons and active protection (8 vs 20) compared to a superheavy chassis with 2 Superheavy Weapon Slots (60/80).
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I think it's worth trying to design a heavy vehicle chassis because of the potential this works alone.
It would make a much better SPG and better MBT if it could, and even if we can't an extra couple of vehicle weapon slots would also help a lot.
It's not just for a super-heavy SPG. It would also make a much better MBT with a super-heavy gun. Or even a set of vehicle guns like the Kratos.
Eh, it's an SPG. Needing support for everything it's not meant to handle (dropping very big booms at long range) isn't exactly inappropriate.
I'd bet on our existing chassis having multiple copies of Enhanced Grav-Engines, the same way our Air Racer does. The listed slots are the minimum.
It is after all supposed to be based on the equivalent of a tractor trailer.
The same hull could probably be used for an MBT. They'd also be well served by having a powerful direct fire weapon.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
values for the Novel design is just the base slots for the platform size; there's options for fiddling with those deliberately and as side effects of certain integrated equipment.
Considerably more than there is for just iteration, in fact.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Yeah, that was part of the reason why I felt it was important to do at least one completely novel design in this run, so we could see how the two compared.
Question @Mechanis , are you going to be slow rolling the Novel Vehicle Design over the course of other projects this turn? Or is the next step going to lock it in?
Question @Mechanis , are you going to be slow rolling the Novel Vehicle Design over the course of other projects this turn? Or is the next step going to lock it in?
With the extra options that the novel design has, I think that incentivises getting the larger base unit even more, as we'll probably have more scope to play around with the design.
We should get the medium armour upgrade to the Light Grav tank, so it can be used in the light tank and light artillery role like the falcon variants, and have a heavier chassis that can be tailored more tightly in fighting.
We should get the medium armour upgrade to the Light Grav tank, so it can be used in the light tank and light artillery role like the falcon variants, and have a heavier chassis that can be tailored more tightly in fighting.
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- Location
- Seattle, Washington
I disagree, I want to make an affordable highly focused tank to be our "Leman Russ but Better" tank that we can build in reasonable numbers.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
I will likely break it down to, at the very minimum, one vote for the Mechanical Things and one for the Fluffy Things, if only to give me some time to trawl for example images when aesthetics comes up.
(Mechanics probably needs to be done in one chunk, because a lot of things feed into each-other in design and need to be considered holistically.)
See my edit, a single Superheavy Weapon Slot eats up 30/38 of the base System slots, any heavy chassis using a Superheavy weapon is going to have a pittance of System Slots remaining for everything else unless we spend more EP to expand it.
Even if we assume we can get an increase in System Slots comparable to what our current superheavy chassis got (the superheavy got 1/3 more so ~16 more System Slots for a heavy) 64 System slots isn't enough to allow for a second Superheavy Weapon Slot while retaining a reasonable amount of other equipment.
Regardless, I doubt you can get the cost of a heavy chassis down enough for you to be able to field 2 for the cost of a single superheavy and when it comes to an SPG with superheavy Fusion Mortars.
A naked light grav-tank chassis is around 180EP, our superheavy chassis is ~422EP (lot of system slot fudging from our current design so exact number is hard to pin down).
Star Anvil: 1300EP
1x Starblade: 400EP
1x Starlance: 100EP
1x Starcarver: 30EP
2x Fatesever: 120EP
2x Fatecaster Rifles: 50EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x Holo-Field: 18EP
10x System Slots Fudged: ~70EP
Chassis: 1300-400-100-30-120-50-90-18-70=422EP
1x Starblade: 400EP
1x Starlance: 100EP
1x Starcarver: 30EP
2x Fatesever: 120EP
2x Fatecaster Rifles: 50EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x Holo-Field: 18EP
10x System Slots Fudged: ~70EP
Chassis: 1300-400-100-30-120-50-90-18-70=422EP
Starfall SH SPG
2x Fusion Mortars: 220EP
1x Heavy Needler: 10EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x HoloField: 18EP
19x System Slots Fudged: ~133EP
Chassis: 422EP
Total: 422+133+220+10+90+18=893EP
2x Fusion Mortars: 220EP
1x Heavy Needler: 10EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x HoloField: 18EP
19x System Slots Fudged: ~133EP
Chassis: 422EP
Total: 422+133+220+10+90+18=893EP
Starfall SPG
1x Fusion Mortars: 110EP
1x Heavy Needler: 10EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x HoloField: 18EP
Chassis: 260EP
Total: 260+110+10+90+18=488EP
1x Fusion Mortars: 110EP
1x Heavy Needler: 10EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x HoloField: 18EP
Chassis: 260EP
Total: 260+110+10+90+18=488EP
Similarly, you're also paying more for crew equipment with 2 heavies vs 1 superheavy chassis.
These are of course all hypotheticals but it does show why I think going for a heavy chassis isn't really worth it if you're doing it in order to mount a SH Weapon onto a vehicle.
I think given the nature of Eldar vehicles as being aircraft/helicopter like in terms of speed and maneuverability a heavy design would make more sense as a heavy troop carrier since you'd be able to fit two 12 man squads into one without much issue and anything more than that would probably be putting too many eggs into one basket unless it's got an obscene level of protection.
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Interesting.
You're assuming a superheavy chassis has twice the effective HP as a heavy chassis, though. If it has less, it is, as you say, putting a lot more eggs in one basket.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
a naked light grav tank is 126 EP, based on the cost of the Blazestar light tank (Blazestar costs 257 EP, -100 for starlance, -25 for fatecaster rifle, -6 for heavy lascannon. No slots are changed, so thats base cost of 126 EP)
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Not sure how much we can or should rely on estimates for the EP cost of a military chassis based on... extrapolating out the cost for the bare frame after taking away how much the guns cost from the overall cost to us to churn out a civilian vehicle with guns bolted on it.
I mean, work with the information we have, sure, but personally I'm expecting the finished product to be pretty damn different.
I mean, work with the information we have, sure, but personally I'm expecting the finished product to be pretty damn different.
- Pronouns
- Reader
I think the super heavy chassis likely has better and more numerous armor and defensive options than a heavy chassis, for a more customized defensive package.
My bet would be "better defensive multipliers, much less than double raw HP," yes. How that works out in effective HP depends on what's shooting you.
Especially since EP isn't actually our limiting factor. It's how many vehicles a single Foundry can produce per turn, a statistic that is apparently only loosely correlated with EP.
So, I'm going to be sleeping through the end of the moratorium. Putting up what's likely to be my final vote when that time comes.
[ ] Plan: Crystalline Constructs
-[ ][Jetbike] Basic Refractor Field Generator
-[ ][Jetbike] Suit-Link System
-[ ][Jetbike] Improved Armor
-[ ][Jetbike] 1x Heavy Weapon slot, 2x System Slots
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Basic Refractor Field Generator
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Smoke Grenade Pods
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Light Armor
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Medium Armor
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Fighting Compartment
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Armored Engine Cowlings
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] 1x Heavy Weapon Slot, 21 System Slots
-[ ][Air Racer] Chameleoline Plating
-[ ][Air Racer] Basic Refractor Field Generator
-[ ][Air Racer] 2x Further Improve Engine Size
-[ ][Air Racer] 3x Vehicle Slots, 9x System Slots
-[ ][Novel Chassis] Heavy
[ ] Plan: Crystalline Constructs
-[ ][Jetbike] Basic Refractor Field Generator
-[ ][Jetbike] Suit-Link System
-[ ][Jetbike] Improved Armor
-[ ][Jetbike] 1x Heavy Weapon slot, 2x System Slots
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Basic Refractor Field Generator
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Smoke Grenade Pods
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Light Armor
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Medium Armor
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Fighting Compartment
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] Armored Engine Cowlings
-[ ][Light Grav-Vehicle] 1x Heavy Weapon Slot, 21 System Slots
-[ ][Air Racer] Chameleoline Plating
-[ ][Air Racer] Basic Refractor Field Generator
-[ ][Air Racer] 2x Further Improve Engine Size
-[ ][Air Racer] 3x Vehicle Slots, 9x System Slots
-[ ][Novel Chassis] Heavy
While our estimates are rarely on target having a basic idea definitely helps since it lets us figure out where hidden costs exist.
Take the Razorwind for example, despite using the same chassis as the naked Militia Jetbike which explicitly costs 21EP the Razorwind is more than 3 times as expensive (21EP vs 66EP) despite only having 24EP's worth of extra stuff added to it.
This was all because we didn't know that fudging with System Slots costs EP and now we know that in the case of the Razorwind each one of those fudged System Slots costed us around 7EP (66-21-24=21, 21/3=7).
This is very helpful here since instead of just going for the bare minimum number of Weapon Slots that would be no-brainers and leaving the rest as System Slots for maximum flexibility we're investing all the non-essential System Slots into Weapon Slots that we know that we'll use so that we save on the System Slot to Weapon Slot conversion costs when we do get around to designing new vehicles.
You're right, was using some really old Starhammer numbers from before we knew fudging with System Slots costed EP (that math also somehow missed the Starcarver that was included in it).
That number makes a lot more sense, the Star Anvil using the ~422EP figure is around 5.275EP per System Slot while the Starhammer with the 180EP figure was 7.5EP which felt really weird.
The 126EP figure brings it down to a much more reasonable 5.25EP per System Slot which is almost the same ratio as the Star Anvil.
Using that 5.25EP/System Slot formula to get the bare minimum for the heavy SPG design I designed would require 44 System Slots (30 for the SH Weapon, 3 for the H Weapon, 11 for the 3 Grav-Shields and 1 Holo-Field).
Starfall SPG
1x Fusion Mortars: 110EP
1x Heavy Needler: 10EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x HoloField: 18EP
Chassis: 231EP
Total: 231+110+10+90+18=459EP
1x Fusion Mortars: 110EP
1x Heavy Needler: 10EP
3x Grav-Shields: 90EP
1x HoloField: 18EP
Chassis: 231EP
Total: 231+110+10+90+18=459EP
This is assuming that there is a set formula of some kind which might not be the case but regardless 231EP does seems reasonable for a heavy chassis if we compare it to the rough guesses for the costs of the medium (~126) and superheavy chassis (~422).
Edit:
Heavier vehicles generally have thicker armor which should both mitigate and outright reduce the number of weapons that can realistically harm it (on TT for example the while the Baneblade doesn't have twice the wounds of say a Rogal Dorn it does have a decent amount more wounds and a higher toughness score).
While from a raw "HP" perspective a single SH vehicle might not be as chunky as 2 H vehicles there should be fewer things that can actually hurt it.
Having fewer vehicles to defend also means you need fewer escorts to cover them all.
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I still prefer a medium tank chassis. If nothing else a smaller vehicle should be faster to get into production and significantly easier to produce. There's a reason why Leman Russ's are as common as Nico in 40k while Baneblades are rarer than hen's teeth. The sooner we can fill our tank needs, the sooner we will be able to supply them to our allies and potential allies.
