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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Alectai said:
Huh, so reaching Major status is just a matter of time, effort, and playing our cards right, not a matter of needing to overhaul our entire Craftworld since our base chassis is already big enough?
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To me that sounds like deal with the nurgle curse and then step on the button for boosting the pop. growth as hard as we can.
 
What we, personally, could offer is something like:

"Vau-Vulkesh is willing to take on and educate craftsmen from each of the major and large craftworlds, as well as smaller craftworlds in good standing with us, in a rotation up to our instruction capacity, on how to create all our current known exotic technologies. Yes, including Biel-Tan, but they'll go last among the majors for the first tour due to their misconduct, and we reserve the rights to exclude them or any other craftworld from this agreement should we be shown compelling evidence of such perfidy going forward."

"Further, with the understanding that any technology so recovered will be shared further under those same conditions, Vau-Vulkesh will offer its bonesingers, its Forge of Vaul, and its seekers and Vaulic academy as material assistance to any other effort to recover or reconstruct critical knowledge - including Kher-Ys effort to construct new soulstones, Muirgaythh's efforts to reverse-engineer Tesseract Arcs, and any effort to recover the secrets of blackstone."
 
The likely solution is that Biel tan has to return whatever they Yoinked.

The ideal one (for the Eldar as a whole) is that the relics get distributed to the craftworlds that have vaulish academies for reverse engineering with a promise to share the results.
 
In theory, what we could do, is open our own relic vaults, and once we've figured out some of those relics, come up with a deal where we swap relics. We get one of theirs to study, they get to hold ours for a bit as insurance.
 
We are likely going to be tightrope-walking with BT for awhile, because, frankly, no trade deal alone gonna be sufficient to leash a major star-faring power. Which Biel Tan is. Especially when ideology is involved. (It is involved.)

They are also not gonna want an all out war with everyone or total isolation, but there are a lot of space for fuck-fuck games beneath those thresholds.

Just get used to the idea of troublesome neighbors. If Vau-V + friendlies grow sufficiently strong over time, the issues gonna diminish. Gonna take awhile, tho.

EDITED - a dumb typo at the start of the post
 
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Mechanis said:
"Solve your population growth problem" is the primary requirement there, at least to a degree. Craftworlds generally have significantly less population than they can theoretically support, though Majors are generally closer to actually significant fractions of their theoretical capacity. Even a small Craftworld generally has an internal floor space well in excess of the total surface area of an Earth-sized planet, after all.
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The most important metric.

How big is our craftworld compared to Biel-Tan and the other majors? We need to measure... our ship size.
 
Redshirt Army said:
"We" as in Vau-Vaulkesh aren't going to get anything directly from them.

And the stick of war against them isn't going to have much bite, since they have a massively oversized military, such that while they'd still lose if the rest of the diaspora jumped them, it would be a phyrric victory at best, and they know it.

So that leaves the carrot - we want to set up significant technology and resource trading amongst the various craftworlds, with the tacit understanding that if we see signs of Biel-Tan doing that kind of fuckery again, we (and everyone else in the trade agreement) are cutting them off.

If we make it clear that being murderous dickbaskets is likely to reduce Biel-Tan's capabilities in the long run instead of increasing them, then they're a lot less likely to do that shit out of pure self-interest.
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tech and other goodies should be offered to Iyanden to make them want us as an ally. my one problem with the current plan is the complete lack of attempting to establishing any kind of common interest or desire to have us as allies in favor of just going all out on warning them about Beil-tan's misdeeds, which is just going to earn us a favor at best.
 
I really get the impression that people aren't grasping the scale of even a small craftworld. I'll try to think of a visualization or metaphor for it, but stacking things on top of each other is an incredibly efficient way to way to get a ton of volume. The only useful parts of the Earth are the surface area, we get to use internal area.
 
I mean we as in the currently aggrieved craftworlds. We could probably lean on Biel-Tan to return *some* of their stolen goodies to those they have taken them from at gun point. We are unlikely to get all of them back for the simple fact that I am not sure if those craftworlds exist anymore.

The important question to ask is: Whose stuff do we want to see returned, and for those who we cannot make whole, what are we willing to get from Biel-Tan in exchange, and what would we be willing to do to help those craftworlds be made whole/buy new allies.

grimely said:
I really get the impression that people aren't grasping the scale of even a small craftworld. I'll try to think of a visualization or metaphor for it, but stacking things on top of each other is an incredibly efficient way to way to get a ton of volume. The only useful parts of the Earth are the surface area, we get to use internal area.
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Here is the moon next to the earth, to scale.


Imagine this but with our craftworld superimposed.

We are longer than north and south america combined. Our rear-half could contain the whole of the continent of Africa with room to spare.
 
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grimely said:
I really get the impression that people aren't grasping the scale of even a small craftworld. I'll try to think of a visualization or metaphor for it, but stacking things on top of each other is an incredibly efficient way to way to get a ton of volume. The only useful parts of the Earth are the surface area, we get to use internal area.
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I think it is just "Majors must be even bigger" sort of thing. Media threadmark where Vau-V dwarfs the moon should be clear enough.
 
Professor Vesca said:
I mean we as in the currently aggrieved craftworlds. We could probably lean on Biel-Tan to return *some* of their stolen goodies to those they have taken them from at gun point. We are unlikely to get all of them back for the simple fact that I am not sure if those craftworlds exist anymore.

The important question to ask is: Whose stuff do we want to see returned, and for those who we cannot make whole, what are we willing to get from Biel-Tan in exchange, and what would we be willing to do to help those craftworlds be made whole/buy new allies.
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Once again we don't have wishes, only proposals and mediations.

As of now we even with prestige of revealing the curses are non factor here and those that can want something are other major Craftworld's. We can give proposal to these Majors, we can influence them but we cannot want anything as we aren't even damaged party.
 
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Star said:
Once again we don't have wishes, only proposals and mediations.

As of now we even with prestige of revealing the curses are non factor here and those that can want something are other major Craftworld's. We can give proposal to these Majors, we can influence them but we cannot want anything as we aren't even damaged party.
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No, but we could potentially offer our services to make the aggrieved parties whole, so instead of the rest of the craftworlds demanding Biel-Tan give back their goodies, and Biel-Tan stubbornly shrieking "No!" we can offer an alternative to the deadlock, where Biel-Tan is allowed to keep the things we stole (mostly because we might not be able to MAKE them give it back without a war) and we get to further increase our standing by being magnanimous and generous to those who have been unjustly wronged, drawing them into our sphere of influence and closer to our faction.

Thus increasing its size, prestige, and more importantly, the things it can accomplish. Depending on how closely our new friends draw to us.
 
Alectai said:
3 isn't going to happen, even if we could get the mandate to do it, Biel-Tan is probably strong enough to have an appreciable chance of taking on the entire diaspora and--if not winning--at least making it a pyrrhic victory on our part that sets us up for extinction. They specced for early game military rush, which means they're probably the most well prepared to fight and win a battle for supremacy if push comes to shove.

2 is reasonably likely though if things go over well.
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That assumes a fair fight. We'd already be at a significant advantage by taking their Autarch here (which I feel very confident in being able to do considering how outnumbered he is and the fact that we're not assailing his established defenses) plus divine support from a trickster god with a Key of Asuryan and the two greatest living seers in terms of strength and lore. The point isn't to do a head on attack of the strongest military power, it's to infiltrate and take out enough of their leadership that we can pull a "by consensus of the Aeldmoot and order of the Phoenix Flame, stand down" on the rest of them.
Zoolimar said:
Ulthwe is outright out due to their position and problems.
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Again, the idea isn't to do a full frontal charge, it's to take advantage of the Elites and Hero Units to cut things off before they can escalate to that point. Eldrad is a significant military contribution on his own in this kind of op.
Zoolimar said:
Iyanden won't be hitting Biel-Tan due to being their long term allies even if they abstain from giving them actual help.
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Did you miss the part where these guys committed what is in most nations considered a capital crime of the highest proportion and treason against the species? I don't think they're going to go "well, considering these guys we were friends with were slaving pirates, we're not going to help them but we're not going to punish them for their crimes against the governing body we're desperately trying to pretend we still represent either".
Zoolimar said:
And while Alaitoc most likely would support spanking of Biel-Tan politically I doubt they would move against them militarily short of Biel-Tan going the Drukhari route.
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They've already gone the Drukhari route. They're effectively feeding their fellow Eldar to She Who Thirsts in exchange for survival and power. This is a big fucking deal that we've stumbled across. This isn't an overzealous but arguably well intentioned military power jumping the gun on perceived threats. This is a group of slavers and pirates who are actively and premeditatedly shooting our whole species in the foot so they can rule the top of the shit pile. They may have put a prettier bow on it, but the utilitarian outcome is very similar.
 
And if we run out of space, we can enlarge the ship, or build a new one.

It's probably wiser to build a daughter ship, as getting much bigger will prevent us from using more of the webway.
 
If we have enough population that we don't have enough space on our ship any more.
Then settling down and going nuts with orbital infrastructure starts to make a lot of sense.
 
Yeah, nothing about military confrontation with BT is going to be that easy, but given that we are prolly not going to do it, no need to get in-depth. Anyway.
IronFist said:
And if we run out of space, we can enlarge the ship, or build a new one.

It's probably wiser to build a daughter ship, as getting much bigger will prevent us from using more of the webway.
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We could prolly just pick up an abandoned one.
 
Professor Vesca said:
No, but we could potentially offer our services to make the aggrieved parties whole, so instead of the rest of the craftworlds demanding Biel-Tan give back their goodies, and Biel-Tan stubbornly shrieking "No!" we can offer an alternative to the deadlock, where Biel-Tan is allowed to keep the things we stole (mostly because we might not be able to MAKE them give it back without a war) and we get to further increase our standing by being magnanimous and generous to those who have been unjustly wronged, drawing them into our sphere of influence and closer to our faction.

Thus increasing its size, prestige, and more importantly, the things it can accomplish. Depending on how closely our new friends draw to us.
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Yes we can mediate but we also need to be aware of our own limits and save some resources for our projects, also avoid to much dedications. We don't know what future holds and Chaos will respond to our reveal eventually so it's better for us to save some resources. Remember that Craftworld that got targeted by Slaanesh? Chaos will target us eventually.

The Froggy Ninja said:
That assumes a fair fight. We'd already be at a significant advantage by taking their Autarch here (which I feel very confident in being able to do considering how outnumbered he is and the fact that we're not assailing his established defenses) plus divine support from a trickster god with a Key of Asuryan and the two greatest living seers in terms of strength and lore. The point isn't to do a head on attack of the strongest military power, it's to infiltrate and take out enough of their leadership that we can pull a "by consensus of the Aeldmoot and order of the Phoenix Flame, stand down" on the rest of them.
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Aldemot isn't about Biel-Tan, it's about Chaos and their curses. Last thing we need is a war between the Eldar. Also you are kinda assuming that other Craftworld's will be on board with this move? We on our own cannot do nothing besides provoke Biel-Tan and actually give them justification to wipe us out in self defense and Eldar are hardly united as you believe them to be.

The Froggy Ninja said:
Again, the idea isn't to do a full frontal charge, it's to take advantage of the Elites and Hero Units to cut things off before they can escalate to that point. Eldrad is a significant military contribution on his own in this kind of op.
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And Eldard will follow this course of action exactly why? Ulthwe will act on the future it sees and not all of them include Biel-Tan being a threat. If anything they aren't threat to Ulthwe, nor are few destroyed minor Craftworld's worthy of Ulthwe expending its own military power on this. Their main concern is Chaos and Biel-Tan may be potential ally for them.


The Froggy Ninja said:
Did you miss the part where these guys committed what is in most nations considered a capital crime of the highest proportion and treason against the species? I don't think they're going to go "well, considering these guys we were friends with were slaving pirates, we're not going to help them but we're not going to punish them for their crimes against the governing body we're desperately trying to pretend we still represent either".
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There's no governing body here, there's no guarantee that there will be another Aeldmoot.

The Froggy Ninja said:
They've already gone the Drukhari route. They're effectively feeding their fellow Eldar to She Who Thirsts in exchange for survival and power. This is a big fucking deal that we've stumbled across. This isn't an overzealous but arguably well intentioned military power jumping the gun on perceived threats. This is a group of slavers and pirates who are actively and premeditatedly shooting our whole species in the foot so they can rule the top of the shit pile. They may have put a prettier bow on it, but the utilitarian outcome is very similar.
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This group of slaver pirates are major Craftworld capable of fighting entire diaspora and are a major galactic power. In Warhammer these power's tend to act like assholes. We need to get used to it and not make rash moves that will fuck our species as a whole.

Answer to theoretical kinslaying and feeding souls to Slaanesh cannot be feeding more souls to Slaanesh. We need to ignore emotions and think rationally here and at the end of the day Biel-Tan is something we need to live with and thus we need to learn how to control it to our own ends.
 
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Somewhat off-topic, but I am greatly spooked by the "we are in room full of ghosts" list that shows that pretty much all adaptationist craftworlds get destroyed in canon.
 
Prospalz said:
Somewhat off-topic, but I am greatly spooked by the "we are in room full of ghosts" list that shows that pretty much all adaptationist craftworlds get destroyed in canon.
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Generally it's quite likely that these are the ones that will get targeted by Chaos due to them potentially having ideas that could break status quo.
 
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