The Eucalyptus has 8 exterior troop capacity partially for this reason. Well besides being a way to retain the Needlestorm's troop capability anyway.
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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
The exact quote is:
The part about how it is a modified Starlance means that the bit about "sacrificing the majority of its refire speed" is in relation to a SH Starlance. The fact that it only says "majority" means that it still retains a degree of the Starlance's refire speed advantage over a comparable system like the Turbolaser.
Your comment regarding how well a single SH Starlance performs also doesn't really support your argument for it being a good anti-titan weapon when the Starlance is only slightly cheaper (5SC 50EP) on an individual basis.
Knights are practically in the same weight class as Baneblades barring things like Acastus's and you yourself concede that the Starlance is a lot worse at killing Warhounds, which are the weakest Titans.
I am also confused at this part.
The Starblade easily overkills a Warhound given the description states that the Warhound gets treated like a guardsman eating a las-cannon shot but you imply that 2 Starlances can match one.
You then state that you would need 4 SH Starlances to guarantee a 1-shot which implies 2 would not be sufficient to do it regularly.
Either way, to get Starlances to perform was well as a Starblade against actual titans seems to require you to spend significantly more and sacrifices most of your vehicles smaller weapons slots.
On a related note, can you try testing what happens vs a Reaver or Warlord to simulate a hypothetical engagement Vs a Gargant or Great Gargant? I tried accessing the site again but I'm still getting the "This site can't be reached" message.
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I'm not comparing damage potential - just a turbolaser has enough damage potential to kill Warhound in one turn if it rolls well, I think. I tried to compare a probability of a kill in one turn, which is, roughly, # of hits to land * hit damage. SL has the first part a lot higher, SB has second. The exact ratio is very dependent on the exact numbers that I just pulled out of my head, so that's not really an argument I'm trying to make about how things really are. Just what I think they are based on what we've been told, inconsistent lore and what I know about tabletop.
That's weird, the link is right now. I tried multiple variants (vs Warlord too) and my version of starblade is consistently twice as good as my version of starlance at killing larger titans, but both of them are good ones. A lot better than e.g. Shadowsword's volcano cannon.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
The difference is that a Starblade is capable of one-shotting a Warhound titan "Like a Guardsman hit by a lascannon", which means that Warhound isn't able to react to the presence of our SH tank or attempt to shoot back.
In addition to being able to core fresh Warhounds, a starblade would be able to affect higher levels of titans (Reavers, Warlords etc) and still be capable of damaging them to a reasonable extent.
Sure, the SLs can hit almost as hard as whatever garbage the Imperials can scrape together as an anti-titan, but we sacrifice the ability to completely and totally kill a Warhound before they're able to fight back, as well as sacrificing our extra weaponry.
Lemme explain it like this:
Starblade Tank shoots a Warhound -> Warhound dies before it's able to shoot back -> Starblade moves on to the next Warhound, repeat ad nauseam until there's no titans left or something manages to kill it.
2SHSL shoots a Warhound -> Warhound is able to react to the attack and shoot back -> Risk of SH tank being destroyed by a lucky AOE weapon increases + takes longer to kill because you have to chew through the shields and hull to be able to drop it.
A 2SHSL setup is quite literally a downgrade in comparison to a Starblade's firepower and quickly plateaus in its efficacy when pitted against titans of a higher tonnage (Reavers and Warlords have significantly stronger shields and thicker armour, as well as more dangerous weaponry)
Also, if you're going to use the justification that this tank is "Free" because the starlances are free, we can then apply that same logic to being able to reclaim the starcrystals in those starlances and then build other weaponry using them, or even upgrade them INTO starblades with a minor resource expenditure.
This implies that it would require FOUR superheavy starlances (or two SH tanks in that plan) to be able to match the equivalent firepower of a SINGLE starblade, and even you yourself state that the SLs are inferior to dealing with titans (which is exactly what our SH is SUPPOSED to be doing) and is only slightly better at dealing with lesser superheavies like knights.
You have quite literally mathematically confirmed that our best, most cost-effective course of action for building an SH / Titan-killer is to use the Starblades.
To put it extremely bluntly, the 2SHSL plan is doomed to fail on a conceptual level, too lacking in supporting secondary and tertiary weapons to to be used as the lynchpin of an armoured assault, too weak to properly deal with titans unless deployed en-masse, incapable of dealing with Eldar / Holo-Fielded / Grav-Shielded SHs and far too reliant upon a limited pool of SH starlances (which will be consumed at a fast pace since we only have 108 of them and each one needs to be reclaimed from a ketch) to be worth the production, and the moment our stockpiles run out, the price tag will bite us hard.
As a titan killer? It is a conceptual failure. As the lynchpin of an armoured assault? It is a conceptual failure. As anything more than an expensive bullet sponge? It is a conceptual failure.
So what role is it supposed to play?
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I'm not too invested in my simulations because they reflect very little, but Iike I said the result was - both weapons are capable of killing a warhound in one turn, 2 sls do it roughly as good as one sb (so you need two to match, not four), and four devastate it with almost 100% probability, something that a single sl can't do. SL's weakness is that it has lower rate of fire, so while you worry less about damage dealt you have to worry more about actually hitting things.
We get 10 lances from refitting a single Ketch. We won't run out of these anytime soon.
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Don't know what to tell ya, tried multiple devices and have also tried my phone's mobile data. All lead to the same error message.
Anyways saw your edit from earlier, I apologize for the aggression.
That being said, while the SH Starlance is clearly a better generalist the Starblade isn't terrible either and more importantly is a better weapon against Gargants, which none of our other units can really handle.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I am honestly leaning towards starblade more now.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
Our crew would (most likely) be using VGA which has autotargeters in them, and the fact that a titan is... y'know, a titan, it shouldn't be too hard to hit most of them (Orks and Imperium at least) and if any of then somehow manage to miss anyway, the Starblade isn't THAT slow in an actual fight, it sacrifices the MAJORITY of a starlances' fire rate, not ALL of it, which means that a starblade will be able to shoot faster than you say it will (it'll shoot slower, but it won't be molasses level slow like the Imperium)
Suncleave is a good design, I like it. But if my numbers are right and we can reuse starlances, we can make 5 Suncleaves per one forge action, or 18 Anvils of Stars. You can't beat that difference short-term.
I'm not saying how fast it would be shooting, and in sumulations I used a conservative 2x difference in RoF. Just saying that "as fast as turbolaser" is not a fact, but a conjencture, and I think a wrong one.
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Wargear guesstimates based off of the written descriptions and 10th statlines. Some of those weren't... very helpful - almost as fast as a hellpistol sounds cool but they have 1 Attack.
| Name | Range | Attacks | Strength | AP | Damage | Qualities |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Starblaster Pistol | 12" | 1 | 8 | -2 | D3+1 | Assault, Pistol |
| Starblaster Carbine | 18" | 1 | 8 | -2 | D3+1 | Assault, Rapid Fire 1 |
| Starblaster Rifle | 24" | 1 | 8 | -2 | D3+1 | Rapid Fire 1 |
| Starcarver | 48" | 2 | 20 | -4 | D6+3 | Heavy, Rapid Fire 2 |
| Starlance | 72" | D3+4 | 24 | -5 | 2D6+2 | Blast, Heavy |
| Starblade | 120" | D3+1 | 28 | -6 | 14 | Blast, Heavy |
| Fatecutter Pistol | 12" | 1 | 6 | -3 | 1 | Assault, Pistol, improves BS of bearer by 1 |
| Fatesplitter Carbine | 18" | 2 | 6 | -3 | 1 | Assault, improves BS of bearer by 1 |
| Fatecaster Rifle | 24" | 3 | 6 | -3 | 1 | Heavy, Lethal Hits, improves BS of bearer by 1 |
| Fatesever Cannon | 30" | 3 | 12 | -3 | 3 | Heavy, Lethal Hits, improves BS of bearer by 1 |
| Fateshredder Cannon | 24" | D6+3 | 6 | -3 | 1 | Blast, Heavy, Lethal Hits, improves BS of bearer by 1 |
| Fatesheer Cannon | 48" | 1 | 24 | -5 | D6+3 | Heavy, Lethal Hits, improves BS of bearer by 1 |
| Needler Pistol | 12" | 1 | 4 | -1 | 1 | Assault, Pistol, Rapid Fire 1 |
| Needler Carbine | 18" | 1 | 4 | -1 | 1 | Assault, Rapid Fire 1 |
| Needler Rifle | 24" | 1 | 4 | -1 | 1 | Rapid Fire 1 |
| Heavy Needler | 30" | 3 | 6 | -3 | 2 | Heavy, Rapid Fire 2 |
| Spike Pistol | 12" | 1 | 6 | -2 | 2 | Assault, Pistol, Rapid Fire 1 |
| Spike Carbine | 18" | 1 | 6 | -2 | 2 | Assault, Rapid Fire 1 |
| Spike Rifle | 24" | 1 | 6 | -2 | 2 | Rapid Fire 1 |
| Spike Cannon | 30" | 3 | 8 | -4 | 4 | Heavy, Rapid Fire 2 |
| Laspistol | 12" | 1 | 3 | -1 | 1 | Assault, Pistol |
| Lascarbine | 18" | 1 | 3 | -1 | 1 | Assault |
| Lasrifle | 24" | 1 | 3 | -1 | 1 | Rapid Fire 1 |
| Lascannon | 48" | 1 | 12 | -3 | D6+3 | Heavy |
| Flamer Pistol | 12" | D6 | 4 | 0 | 1 | Assault, Ignores Cover, Pistol, Torrent |
| Flamer | 12" | D6 | 5 | 0 | 1 | Assault, Ignores Cover, Torrent |
| Heavy Flamer | 12" | D6 | 6 | -1 | 2 | Ignores Cover, Torrent |
| Screamer Grenade Launcher | 24" | 1 | - | - | - | Blast, Heavy, Indirect Fire, any unit hit at least once by this weapon must take a Leadership test or all friendly units targeting it improve their BS by 1 for the remainder of the shooting phase |
| Light Close Combat Weapon | - | 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | |
| Close Combat Weapon | - | 2 | 4 | -1 | 1 | |
| Light Power Sword | - | 4 | 4 | -2 | 1 | |
| Power Sword | - | 3 | 5 | -3 | 1 | |
| Power Maul | - | 2 | 6 | -4 | 2 | |
| Force Stave | - | 3 | 8 | -3 | D3 | Psychic |
| Force Sword | 4 | 8 | -4 | D3+1 | Psychic |
Heavy Weapons, c. 975.M29
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
The difference is that you're going to need those 18 Star Anvils since each one is significantly anemic in its armament than the 5 Suncleaves, or the 5 Vaul Anvils.
Quality over Quantity is something the Vulkhari should lean into.
While I'm detracting the SH tanks, I'd like to ask why exactly we're trying to create an artillery wagon when we don't have any form of actual artillery? And besides, we need a fast assault skimmer, not an artillery piece (that only has screamer grenades at the moment)
Let me borrow y'all's eyes real quick to yap about the designs I'm thinking and explain each one in detail.
[X] "Forgehammer" Main Battle Tank (Max slots)
-[X] Light Grav-Vehicle Chassis
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot)
-[X] 1x Spike Cannon, 1x Heavy Needler (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field
-[X] 2x Vehicle Grav-Shield
-[X] Convert 4 System Slots -> 1 Heavy + 1 Ranged Slot
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Needler Rifle (Regular Slot)
-[X] (Crew Equipment), Void Guard Armour, Spike Rifle, CCW Knife.
This is my plan for an MBT, a cheap and effective generalist tank that we can mass-produce at a low exotic cost and be able to deal with any other tanks or large groups of infantry that we might encounter in most battlefields, it'll become the backbone of our armoured forces and won't need a refit for at least a couple of turns (and even if it does, this is still a very nice tank in its current state)
I've already elaborated to great and enthusiastic lengths as to why the Anvil of Vaul would be an effective generalist / titan killer, but I'll put it here too for the sake of explaining it to folks.
[X] "Vaul's Anvil" Superheavy Grav-Tank (Revamped)
-[X] Heavy Grav-Vehicle Chassis.
-[X] 1x Starblade (Superheavy Slot)
-[X] 1x Starlance (Vehicle Slot) 1x Fatesever Cannon
-[X] 2x Fatecaster Rifles (Heavy Slot) 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot).
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field, 3x Grav-Shields
-[X] Trade in 2 Ranged Slots -> 1 System Slot.
-[X] Trade in 9 System Slots -> 1 Vehicle Slots + 1 Heavy Slot
-[X] 1x Fatesever Cannon (Vehicle Slot).
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Starblaster Rifles + CCW (Hammers)
With this layout, we get a generalist Superheavy tank that can kill / severely damage titans (Warhounds would get one-shot and Reavers+ would have to take it seriously) act as a lynchpin for an armoured assault (like a baneblade?) While also being able to dispatch most armoured vehicles, Marine and Guardsmen Equivalent infantry and even threatening Eldar superheavies thanks to the Fatesever cannon it has mounted.
Now I admit, this might not be the perfected version of the Anvil, the Vehicle Starcarver could be replaced with an extra Fatesever, we could substitute a fatecaster rifle with a Starcarver to replace the old vehicle version, so if anyone does want me to change them, let me know and I'll edit this to feature it.
Edit! I don't think we can add a vehicle Starcarver so I'll be removing it, if anyone wants to suggest what we can do with the extra vehicle slot, let me know and I'll change the vote.
Edit 2: Removed 1 starlance and replaced it with a cheaper fatesever, recalculated the vehicle slots to compensate for price.
[X] "Chisel" Fast Assault Jetbike (Bright Talon Refit)
-[X] Heavy Jetbike Chassis
-[X] 1x Starcarver (Heavy Slot),
-[X] 2x Needler Rifles (Ranged Slot)
-[X] 1x Vehicle Holo-Field,
-[X] (Crew Equipment) Void Guard Armour, Flamer Pistol + CCW
Now this will be our fast attack skimmer, featuring a starcarver and a fatecaster, any infantry it comes across is gonna be shredded and light vehicles are gonna be ruined because of it (and heavier ones might still be damaged), it'll be a pretty cheap-ish skimmer and what we get from the extra costs is gonna be worth it.
Edit: I admit, this one's a doozy and is probably the weakest out of the three in terms of how much effort I put into it, its new armament isn't as good as a bright-talon jetbike, but with a holo-field, it's survivability will be much higher.
Total costs for all of these are as follows:
Forgehammer: 208EP + 28SC (24 per VAP)
Vaul's Anvil: 803EP + 78SC + 6 Scopes (6.22 per VAP / 7 per VAP rounded up)
Chisel: 60 EP + 8SC (83.33 / 84 per VAP)
Edited the Vanvil to be 40EP cheaper by removing a starlance, and substituting it with an extra fatesever to make it even more of a counter towards Holo-Fields. and also edited the Chisel.
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- Location
- Pee Pee Poo Poo
Why have void guard armor for the crew over the brigandine one?
Might I sell you on the Suncleave instead? It's got a Starblade like the Anvil but instead of 2 Starlances and a Fatesever it's got 2 Fatesevers and 2 Starcarvers for anti-armor since I figured the additional Fatesever would be more useful against Biel Tan and costs less overall.
We've also got the same Fatecaster Rifle count but the Suncleave has a lot more rapid fire weapons with the inclusion of 4 Heavy and 3 regular Needlers for throwing up a storm suppressive fire.
The heavy tank we end up with will likely be the only heavy tank we design and build for the next while given our AP and resource constraints.
Since we don't yet have an answer to Ork Gargants I would like for whatever answer we come up with here to be a decisive one.
Agreed. Temporarily adding revamped Anvil to my vote, will remove one or the other as the consensus forms. Still prefer Sunclave, but I want a Starblade SH on our Titan killer.
Edit: might be a good idea to do a comparison post for all proposed designs in critical roles (MBT, Titan killer, fast tank, etc.) Too busy to do so myself, unfortunately.
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The cloudbursts designation as a mortar Skimmer is kinda wrong, Since its been given Dual Grenade launchers instead of Mortars, But that aside, I still thing its a worthwhile platform that will get a Literally free upgrae WHEN we pick up the grenade tech. It gives our fast attack Elelemnts some form of AOE, even if currently non-thal, and once we get the grenade tech, It will be a deadly little fast mover.
Dual grenade launchers are not Mortars, Those are actually different things, but Name aside Its a Great little platform that gives our fast attack elements something they want, supplementing Shock Tactics and AOE.
Dual grenade launchers are not Mortars, Those are actually different things, but Name aside Its a Great little platform that gives our fast attack elements something they want, supplementing Shock Tactics and AOE.
- Location
- United Kingdom
And there's nothing stopping us from designing and building some Suncleaves in the future when we've unfucked our military and production lines and can actually afford them without compromising something else, considering how much more EP they cost.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
I could either edit the VAnvil to include a similar arsenal to the Suncleave, or I can change my vote to it if needed?
I went with two Starlances to act as our primary anti-tank weaponry so we can conserve our starblade for beefier superheavies / titans, but I can definitely see the appeal of swapping over to the fatesevers considering Biel-Tan related fuckery, so I might change my selection to the Suncleave if it looks like the vote is about to swing towards a twin starlance option.
VGA is for crew survivability (so anything that hits the tanks doesn't kill them / knock them out cold) and because I'm hoping the autotargeters will mesh well with our tank's ability to aim and the Spike rifles are for an emergency weapon incase they need to evac the tanks and make their way back to safety (experienced tank crews with a higher likelihood of survival is always preferred if we can help it)
We still don't actually have confirmation from @Mechanis on whether or not refitting an Assault Ketch will give us a bunch of complete SH Starlances or if we just get refunded the Starcrystal and EP cost of the entire CIWB system.
Because if it's the latter than the Suncleave becomes much cheaper since we aren't locked into needing to spend two SH Starlances worth of SC instead of just a bit over one SH Starlance's worth.
Besides that, a single Starblade isn't significantly worse against the lowest rung of superheavy vehicles compared to two SH Starlances and becomes significantly better as we run into bigger and bigger enemies.
Meanwhile, the area where the SH Starlances excels at the most overlaps with what a regular vehicle grade Starlance and Fatesevers should be able to handle since Starlances as a rule are going to be much better then generic las-cannons of a similar size while the Fatesever's ability to always target weak spots should let it hit above what it's weight class would suggest.
Maybe do both and see which way the wind blows?
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Dude, again, double starlance tank damage output is like 4xWarhound titans. A single starlance is lower damage compared to what pre-fall eldar considered the right gun for a fun gargant safari. But six of them are going to outgun a single starblade a lot. This design, if you take quantities into account, is low on defense and versatility, not on damage output.
It might be fun to do a comparison with the craftworld canon equivalent as well just to see how well they do.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Why doesn't this anvil have a grav shield or a holo shield?
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
Oops the vote swallowed up the defences, gimme a second
DarkLight140
Credit to Team
- Location
- Lost in my thoughts
Can you explain how you see the Bright Talon heavy jetbike, which also uses a starcarver and fatecaster, relating to this skimmer design? Because as far as I can tell this is literally just a Bright Talon on a larger chassis with a holofield. The non-exotics have nearly irrelevant levels of firepower in comparison to the exotics so they don't really matter.
If you are going to suggest a Bright Talon with a holofield, just suggest a Bright Talon with a holofield. The heavy jetbike chassis has the slots and refits will be cheaper than new builds. A second design with practically identical weaponry and movement profile does not serve our larger military's needs well.
Any speeder concept should bring something to the table that our existing forces don't. That means either a bigger gun than jetbikes can carry, troop transport faster than the Mirage, or a very different weapon loadout than anything currently fielded.
- Location
- Somewhere Beyond the Sea
Fair point, I'll edit the Chisel to reflect this point, I was also on the verge of losing consciousness when I was drafting up the skimmer so I'll change it to something else soon.
Edit, fixed, truthfully speaking I only used the skimmer chassis because of the extra slots, so we could keep the arsenal of the bright talon while also slapping a holo field onto the hull, drastically improving the survivability without comrpomising on the weaponry, but now I realise that it just isn't feasible, I could give the crew a Fatecaster carbine to use but idk on if people would vote for that.
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