Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Okay, lets not count other arts, then.
At the very least, you need to count weapon and talisman bonuses. Between the Blizzard Pin and our Bow, we have +4 to our Archery - and I expect anyone using any sort of offensive art to have bonuses roughly on par with this. In contrast, bonuses to minions or to allies are both something we've never seen on a talisman, and in general would expect NOT to see - so that is a 0 there. Now we are at 17 dice from Meteoric shower to 16 dice for the Worms. With two autos, that gives a 75% chance to hit with each attack. If we count on having the armband and up our qi cost from 7 to 10, the that gives and 4 points of bonus, that gives an 88% chance of hitting. Pretty good chances of a kill too, though it isn't guaranteed; I'm not going to post numbers because I can't get anydice to do the calculations.

I admit that these numbers are a bit smaller than I expected, and the extra survivability REALLY helps the Worms. At AE1, they were made of wet paper; now they are made of dry cardboard. Still something you can punch through, but not something you can punch through trivally. Well, unless you are Sun Liling or something.
If we are doing a pure art stat comparison, then the talisman additions are not needed. Talismans are used for battle or utility, they are not indicative of an art's stat line up and how it compares to other arts.

If we want to do a usability in battle though, then we need to consider everything that will help us in a battle. Talismans, extra arts, synergies between arts, passives, strategy, etc. And in that vein, the dice still seem to favor AE minions over FSA, but more importantly, the dice seem to favor AE over our competitor's AoE attacks.

A full on battle between two Ling Qi's would have us not using FVM, as we would just tranquil rebuke each other and AE's spiritual defense passives would reck attempts to stick FVM. We would instead focus on FZ + FSA or FZ and AE along with our defense buffs. So I'm just going to assume those numbers because it makes it a lot easier than trying to figure out how a full-on battle between two Ling Qi's would go.

The first thing that we would attempt to do to each other would be AtW. That debuff will make or break a fight as it is a huge dice changer for both offense and defense. So I can see a use of Encircling winds on each other, with AtW being the follow-up. Assuming that we both get each other with AtW, and then AE Ling Qi summons the minions and FSA Ling Qi uses the Meteoric shower to clear them, we can see the dice result.

FSA Meteoric Shower = Dex + Archery + Tech dots + Pin + Bow + Passives (FSA + FZ + AC) + bonus + AtW = 6 + 5 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 5 + -4 + -4 = 20 dice.
AE Crawling Horrors = Dex + Tech dots + Bonus + TRF passive = 6 + 3 + 7 + 3 = 19 dice.

If both of our Zhenguis are fighting at the moment, and we both decide that Deepwood vitality would be helpful then both FSA Ling Qi and AE Ling Qi would use Deepwood vitality as an instant. AE Ling Qi would target herself, Zhengui, and the two minions. That puts the AE crawling horror defensive dice at

AE Crawling Horrors = Dex + Tech dots + Bonus + TRF passive + Deepwood vitality = 6 + 3 + 7 + 3 + 3 = 22 dice.

The FSA Meteoric shower will probably still land 1 or 2 dice more than the worms defense (because of the auto's) but that's not enough to kill them at this point. The worms would have 4 health and 6 qi, meaning each shot against them would have to do consistently 3 and 4 damage, when the probability would be for only 2 or 3 damage per shot. The worms would then move and be able to attack, and another Meteoric shower would be needed to clear them off putting the score at

FSA Ling Qi: 2 actions 14 qi
AE Ling Qi : 1 action 16 qi.

The more appropriate match-up, however, would be Ling Qi versus Chu Song.

Chu Song's AoE used these dice:
Strength+Greatsword+Passives+Equipment-Art Penalty. 19 dice

If we were able to tag her with AtW and Elegy (which would be possible given her dice for her defenses that we saw) then her AoE goes down to 13 dice. Crawling horror's, on the other hand, would have 22 dice if we used Deepwood vitality to buff up Zhengui and ourselves after we summoned them.

We can expect Chu Song's AoE to have about 9.25 successes against our Crawling horrors ((13 x .25) + 6) while our Crawling horrors would have 5.5 success against her (22 x .25). The difference is about 3.75 dice in favor of Chu Song, but that's not enough to outright kill the summons. That is enough to get rid of the qi and the bonus health box, maybe. Either way, these minions would be able to survive the AoE by Chu Song, and then attack her drastically weakened defenses (from FVM) and probably deal damage to her. Given her defenses.

Chu Song Defenses
Stamina+Toughness+Passives+Equip. 20 dice +6 autos against our minions.

If we have Diaspon, Dissonance, Elegy, and Against the Wind up and running against her, then that would be a -4, -6 + (-3 multi-attacker), -2, -4 = -19. Chu Song's physical defense would be at 1 dice + 6 auto's.

Crawling horror's would have 18 with the addition of AC passives. Chu Song's defense against the minions would be about 6.25 dice ((1 x .25) + 6 autos) while our minions would have an attack of about 4.5 (18 x .25). Not enough to deal damage, but exceedingly close. Especially if we were to have attacked previously with Scalding Stream lowering her defensive dice pool by another 6. Or used encircling wind against her that still had a couple of turns left on it. At that point, the reduced defenses would be eating into her auto-successes, and the summoned minions would be able to deal damage to her.

We can set the field up so that a low yellow minion can reliably hit an early green combatant. As well as survive an AoE attack by her. And we wouldn't be doing anything different than what we would normally do when trying to set the field up either, there is no deviation from techniques that we commonly use in order to win a fight by ourselves.

Chu Song will be growing in power, this we know, but so will we. Our minions can grow in power, or debuffs can grow in power, and our buffs can grow in power. However, using the dice that we have right now, we can set up our minions to deal damage to Chu Song when they are at low yellow and she is at early green.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Dec 23, 2017 at 4:20 PM, finished with 43843 posts and 75 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Flaming Fire + Woodworking
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill; 3 RSS; 1 Yellow stone
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 2 + 10 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6+ 4 + 10 + 6 + 8 + 18 + 3= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Work to Unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    [X] Plan: The Final Countdown
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Physical Cultivation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling (Arm Meridian)
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields (Thousand Ring Fortress)
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own (Argent Current)
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Favor for Fu Xiang (2)
    -[X] Minor: Work to Unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan Steady as a Turtle
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Grinning Moon Bonus -> Physical
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Use from inventory: 3 RSS (3), 1 YSS (10), Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] (minor) You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    --[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[X] Do a favor for Fu Xiang
    --[X] Try for x2 Favors, but stop at 1 if the first heist doesn't go too well (i.e. we have used up our reroll)
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Work to unlock the Puzzle Box
    [x] Plan Let's Try This Out
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    ---[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    ---[x] (minor) Work to unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[x] Take a job
    -[x] Wolfpack Hunt
    --[x] Invite Xiulan
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[x] You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan Favorless
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Grinning Moon Bonus -> Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Use from inventory: 3 RSS (3), 1 YSS (10), Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    --[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] (minor) Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[x] Take a job
    --[X] Passion Fruit Collection
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[x] You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan TOKEN DOOMED RESISTANCE
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Speak with Han Jian, about Argent Storm and the Golden Fields. What is his home like?
    -[X] Minor: Your feelings regarding Gu Tai are... conflicted, maybe you should speak with him a bit. You know where he is staying.
    [X] Plan TOKEN DOOMED RESISTANCE
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    --[X] Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Minor: Your feelings regarding Gu Tai are... conflicted, maybe you should speak with him a bit. You know where he is staying.
 
AE Crawling Horrors = Dex + Tech dots + Bonus + TRF passive = 6 + 3 + 7 + 3 = 19 dice.
...
AE Crawling Horrors = Dex + Tech dots + Bonus + TRF passive + Deepwood vitality = 6 + 3 + 7 + 3 + 3 = 22 dice.
You're leaving out the -4 for AtW. That's enough for one success, which changes your projected damage from 2-3 to 3-4 per arrow.
 
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You're leaving out the -4 for AtW. That's enough for one success, which changes your projected damage from 2-3 to 3-4 per arrow.
I mean, when AtW was used, the minions weren't summoned, so they wouldn't have been affected by it. If FSA Ling Qi wants to do a second cast of AtW she could, and it would probably be cheaper than 2 Meteoric showers, but it would still take up a total of 2 actions.
 
Hey guys, every single plan opens an Arm Meridian, but yrsilarr said that we already opened it, he had just forgotten to add it. Shouldn't we adjust the plans to take this into account? Or are we still lacking that meridian for some other technique?
 
FSA Meteoric Shower = Dex + Archery + Tech dots + Pin + Bow + Passives (FSA + FZ + AC) + bonus + AtW = 6 + 5 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 5 + -4 + -4 = 20 dice.
Also, you can't inflict the multiattacker penalty because FSA Ling Qi goes first. At least, I'm assuming the AC/ -4 is multiattacker instead of a typo.
 
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We do not know that this is "a big part of her strategy". We know it is a thing she has done. Once.
And I was talking about the context of that one big fight, since it's the only conflict we've seen her in besides when she chased us, which was a completely different scenario.

Considering the circumstances: Sun was matching Cai plus Gan for a large portion of the fight while doing Qi intensive flight and big attacks like RTDF, she activated the sunflower field at the twilight of the battle when everyone was wounded and exhausted, we immediately felt the flowers sucking in Qi from the surroundings while Meizhen shouted to stop them ASAP, we stopped the Qi drain with Elegy, and Sun immediately focused on dropping us despite being attacked by the three strongest opponents at once, but lost regardless when our mist didn't dissipate.

It's not an unreasonable deduction that Sun's Blitzkrieg style uses Qi intensive attacks, and the sunflowers are meant to help her last in larger scale battles without burning herself out is it? Seems like a rather important solution to a logical weakness in her aggressive build.
 
Also, you can't inflict the multiattacker penalty because FSA Ling Qi goes first. At least, I'm assuming the AC/ -4 is multiattacker instead of a typo.
It is neither a typo or a multiattacker debuff. There are two -4's in the list, one is because Meteoric shower has a -4 to use it and the other -4 is because of AtW. The multi-attacker debuff can't be used to debuff a person's attack.

I suppose you could spend an additional 3 qi for the armband use which would, as you pointed out, bring the damage to 3 or 4 per shot, which is just enough to maybe use one action to take out both of the minions, unless FSA Ling Qi goes first in which case the minions wouldn't have been summoned at that point. It's about a 50/50 at that point to take one action or two actions. If the gamble fails, however, and it takes two actions, then you are looking at spending even more qi then the cost of the AE summons, by one (14 + 3 = 17).

But that is assuming that FSA Ling Qi goes first, but trying to determine who goes first between two combatants with the same arts, the same skills, and the same initiative and speed is way too much work for a fictional battle between ourselves. I was figuring that every action happened at the same time and left it at that.
 
A few notes on this. AE3 requires an additional meridian, and meridians are already very much a non-trivial cost. If we were just keeping AE for the passives, we would want to stop at AE2, or push ahead to AE4 to fill up what we can do in 3 meridians. Honestly, I strongly doubt that the difference between AE4 and AE2's passives is worth 200+ successes plus a meridian.

Furthermore. Breath is problematic because it requires us to pay for excluding all of our allies from it, after we've pay for that with FVM already. And lining up the ranges is going to be a major pain. Honestly, I find it hard to imagine a situation where I would want to use Breath after we have FVM up. If we haven't used Elegy, I would do that first. If we have, I'd probably start using AC+FZ or TRF or something. If we are sticking with having AE, we might even summon the worms there. But doing Breath at that point doesn't seem like it would be our best call. So basically, when we develop AE, we are more-or-less writing its first tech off entirely.
As we currently are, there shouldn't be any meridian-related issues at all. Once we're appraisal we can safely open like 30 meridians (and can even try 1-action 2 meridian opening), and even in Early we're ok for the first ~10 easy. The cost here is +1 action, and nobody is forcing us to further invest to get to AE4 and maximize meridian efficiency.

As for Breath use in combat, if we spend 2 turns on mist followed by Elegy, then Breath is another fairly powerful reapplying debuff and recurring source of attacks (for the penalty) we can drop on a fairly big AoE.

FVM alone is nice, but the point where further debuffs stop being useful is a lot further than what just FVM can provide (especially with dispels for DP which we're not re-casting mist for cheaply).

Strength-wise if it's action-efficient to use Elegy then it's also efficient to use Breath. Up to melody holding and ally inclusion cost (which is an issue, but FVM used to suck for allies too), which means not really atm but I kinda hope we'll get regen eventually from it.

As for lining up the AoE's... the trend for these techs is bigger area anyway, and unless we deploy max-range FVM we can fairly easily herd enemies into the other mist (if it's a stay-in-place with no option of following us like MoTV).
 
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AM arguably has passives about as useful in terms of utility and SCS is all kinds of bullshit, but in terms of combat usefulness I think AE is very strong there, especially with how broadly-applicable these passives are.

Now, are the passives enough to justify the +120 success so far investment?

Honestly? No. And if we'd known in advance we might've considered putting it off or forgetting about it entirely. That's not the issue however, sunk costs and all, not like we can un-train it and get those actions back.

What we should be doing is looking at the future and deciding whether further investment is worth the marginal return. Next level is an effective 60 successes away if Thor's plan wins[2], which (with the more significant cost of a new Meridian) will get us AE3.

What can we expect from AE3? A new tech for one; I haven't checked extensively but it seems like every time an art needs a new meridian it also gets a new tech, usually a very useful tech. Lung = constructs, so I'm guessing either something new to do with the Breath, or a stronger Minion variant.

If it's a Breath related, it might make it competitive with FVM mist and thus worth layering on top (provided dice issues are addressed). Probably the less useful option unless it's a qi-steal effect that amps the regen, in which case it's very useful. If it's a new minion, I expect something more useful than Worms currently are. Maybe even a Late Yellow minion?

Besides those, we can expect assorted tech and passive improvements, which would be nice since they're all very useful to have in combat.

Overall, it's most likely worth spending the 2-3 actions to get AE3 and the meridian for it. Anything further than that will require a long and hard look at just how useful the breath and minions look like they'll be for our tournament-time combat strategy, and how much we even want to train Power.
A few notes on this. AE3 requires an additional meridian, and meridians are already very much a non-trivial cost. If we were just keeping AE for the passives, we would want to stop at AE2, or push ahead to AE4 to fill up what we can do in 3 meridians. Honestly, I strongly doubt that the difference between AE4 and AE2's passives is worth 200+ successes plus a meridian.

Furthermore. Breath is problematic because it requires us to pay for excluding all of our allies from it, after we've pay for that with FVM already. And lining up the ranges is going to be a major pain. Honestly, I find it hard to imagine a situation where I would want to use Breath after we have FVM up. If we haven't used Elegy, I would do that first. If we have, I'd probably start using AC+FZ or TRF or something. If we are sticking with having AE, we might even summon the worms there. But doing Breath at that point doesn't seem like it would be our best call. So basically, when we develop AE, we are more-or-less writing its first tech off entirely.

We don't need 3 rd meridian to know what AE3 look like. We can simply unequipp it, and use meridians for something else.

After the breakthrough Ling Qi will get new music art to stack Expression(or spiritual attack) for FVM.
Probably one more before tournament.
Hopefully this arts will have better synergy with particular fighting style.

I'M not really attached to any archery/summon/melee/spiritual fighting style.
I simply want strong fighting style.

Ling Qi is attached to music, therefore it must be something with strong synergy with music.
And after we decide, unneeded arts may be unnequipped and Meridians used for something else.
Rather than keep them for sunk cost fallacy.
 
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It's not an unreasonable deduction that Sun's Blitzkrieg style uses Qi intensive attacks, and the sunflowers are meant to help her last in larger scale battles without burning herself out is it? Seems like a rather important solution to a logical weakness in her aggressive build.
Everyone uses lots of qi in a fight like that. Everyone would love to have a way to recover it. There's nothing special there.
 
And after we decide, unneeded arts may be unnequipped and Meridians used for something else.
Rather than keep them for sunk cost fallacy.

The basic question we have to ask there is whether or not spending 3 actions to open more meridians is worth keeping the passives of an art we otherwise don't really use. And that may be pretty reasonable a lot of the time.
 
The multi-attacker debuff can't be used to debuff a person's attack.
Yeah, I was just really confused about where that mysterious extra penalty was coming from.
Given you said this:
If we want to do a usability in battle though, then we need to consider everything that will help us in a battle. Talismans, extra arts, synergies between arts, passives, strategy, etc.
I was assuming you used the armband.

We know from our last combat encounter that our MS archery gets:
Dex 6 + Archery 5 + Bow 2 + Pin 2 +FSA 3 + FZ 5 + AC 2 +tech/activation 3 = 28 dice
-4 for AtW is 24 dice.

So, most likely a oneshot, at 10 qi, assuming FSA uses her instant on Deepwood Vitality instead of an offensive tech.

If we have Diaspon, Dissonance, Elegy, and Against the Wind up and running against her, then that would be a -4, -6 + (-3 multi-attacker), -2, -4 = -19. Chu Song's physical defense would be at 1 dice + 6 auto's.

Crawling horror's would have 18 with the addition of AC passives. Chu Song's defense against the minions would be about 6.25 dice ((1 x .25) + 6 autos) while our minions would have an attack of about 4.5 (18 x .25). Not enough to deal damage, but exceedingly close. Especially if we were to have attacked previously with Scalding Stream lowering her defensive dice pool by another 6. Or used encircling wind against her that still had a couple of turns left on it. At that point, the reduced defenses would be eating into her auto-successes, and the summoned minions would be able to deal damage to her.
At that point, we could MS her for full damage and deal 28+4 unblockable, for less qi. As opposed to "maybe hit her with minions."

AE2 is a late yellow art at best. It should not be surprising that the worms amount to chump change in a hypothetical green level fight. Especially since AE, like FVM, looks like a technique that is great for punching down. Wait till AE3 if you want to use them like that.


The worms are stronger, and there are situations where we can use them, I'm not saying it's useless. We just need to be aware of their strengths and limitations. For example, instant techs like Thunderous Retort exist, and are really effective at dealing with things like this.
 
It was 15+20+30+60=125. Check the numbers if you want.

I said TR2. 30+55=85.

Clearly, then, FZ4 is an unfair comparison to AE2. On the other hand, FZ2 costs 10+20+40+20+40 = 130, which is about as much as AE's 120. Now look at what FZ2 accomplishes. AE2 doesn't come close to comparing.
I was comparing successes of mid yellow arts, and I consider AE2 to be better than FZ2 tbh.

If you count the successes Ling Qi needed for FSA4, it's 15+20+30+50, but the actual success needed for the art are 15+30+40+60. If we count specific stuff like reductions, we then need to talk about action spent, rather than successes needed, because successes are relative to how much efforts is needed to get them for ling qi.

If we are talking about the power of an art for successes needed, then we need to talk about successes pre-reductions.

I'm gonna say @PrimalShadow has a point; at it's current level AE's techs are basically useless to us; FVM does the breath part better (and has better dice[1]) and Minions are only useful in situations we don't really need them anyway.
Minions would have been really useful in situations like we just did against Ji Rong, except alone. The breath actually can work if we use it on turn three after our FVM techs, considering the kind of debuff we can land... and it stacks with FVM.

Also, your dice for FVM are a bit off (we have 19 +1 cultivation level).
Crawling horror's would have 18 with the addition of AC passives. Chu Song's defense against the minions would be about 6.25 dice ((1 x .25) + 6 autos) while our minions would have an attack of about 4.5 (18 x .25). Not enough to deal damage, but exceedingly close. Especially if we were to have attacked previously with Scalding Stream lowering her defensive dice pool by another 6. Or used encircling wind against her that still had a couple of turns left on it. At that point, the reduced defenses would be eating into her auto-successes, and the summoned minions would be able to deal damage to her.
Keep in mind that the minions attack one after the other, so the second one will have another multi attack penalty... which will means Chu Song would lose 2 auto success. It's even possible we could do PC to buff this up, too.
 
[X] Plan: The Final Countdown
Adhoc vote count started by OneArmedYeti on Dec 23, 2017 at 6:47 PM, finished with 43861 posts and 78 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Flaming Fire + Woodworking
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill; 3 RSS; 1 Yellow stone
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 2 + 10 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6+ 4 + 10 + 6 + 8 + 18 + 3= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Work to Unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    [X] Plan: The Final Countdown
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Physical Cultivation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling (Arm Meridian)
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields (Thousand Ring Fortress)
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own (Argent Current)
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Favor for Fu Xiang (2)
    -[X] Minor: Work to Unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan Steady as a Turtle
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Grinning Moon Bonus -> Physical
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Use from inventory: 3 RSS (3), 1 YSS (10), Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] (minor) You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    --[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[X] Do a favor for Fu Xiang
    --[X] Try for x2 Favors, but stop at 1 if the first heist doesn't go too well (i.e. we have used up our reroll)
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Work to unlock the Puzzle Box
    [x] Plan Let's Try This Out
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    ---[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    ---[x] (minor) Work to unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[x] Take a job
    -[x] Wolfpack Hunt
    --[x] Invite Xiulan
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[x] You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan Favorless
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Grinning Moon Bonus -> Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Use from inventory: 3 RSS (3), 1 YSS (10), Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    --[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] (minor) Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[x] Take a job
    --[X] Passion Fruit Collection
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[x] You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan TOKEN DOOMED RESISTANCE
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Speak with Han Jian, about Argent Storm and the Golden Fields. What is his home like?
    -[X] Minor: Your feelings regarding Gu Tai are... conflicted, maybe you should speak with him a bit. You know where he is staying.
    [X] Plan TOKEN DOOMED RESISTANCE
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    --[X] Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Minor: Your feelings regarding Gu Tai are... conflicted, maybe you should speak with him a bit. You know where he is staying.
 
So, an interesting thing about the Ji Rong ambush is that it shows us how vulnerable Ling Qi is to being ambushed. Or rather, that in order to win fights we rely a lot on our ability to act first. While we are not completely useless without being able to act first, it means having only 28 p.defence if we use GC (robe is 2 because of full light) and not having the -3 from mist. Which, while fairly good, is not so good when we are being ambushed by many enemies, especially if they have a support.

Still, the good news is we wouldn't be in Ji Rong's position: I highly doubt that Ling Qi would not run, and OtW means being able to do so safely once it's our turn. Hell, Mist+OtW means being able to try to lock our enemies in place while we run the fuck away.
 
[X] Plan: The Final Countdown

Voting for this because it does not have the stupid dragon vote.
[] Plan: The Final Countdown
-[] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
-[] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
-[] EPC Bonus:
Physical Cultivation
-[] Overflow -> Physical
-[] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling (Arm Meridian)
--[] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
-[] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields (Thousand Ring Fortress)
--[] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
-[] Major: Cultivate on your Own (Argent Current)
-[] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
-[] Major: Do a Favor for Fu Xiang (2)
-[] Minor:
Work to Unlock the Puzzle Box
-[] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
-[] Minor: You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
That stupid dragon vote? Pretty sure they all have it...
 
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