Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

By the way, we should consider letting Ma Jun use the Tome on songwriting. We have no more use for it as it only benefits cultivation of music arts of yellow and below, and six dice could really help her out. We maybe might need it at some point again if we pick up another music art that starts at yellow, but right now it's not really doing us any good.
 
Dropping AC just isn't something we actually need to do at the moment though. Meridians aren't that scarce yet. Pushing it all the way to its 5th level is pretty iffy before the tournament though, yes. Even level 4 might not be in the cards.
I don't suggest dropping it at the moment, I object to Black Noise listing AC5 as a requirement and one of our core arts. Leaving as it is for now is my preferred choice.

If and only if someone considers the passives from AC to be truly core I suggest using the successes that would have been used leveling AC5 to instead level another art with the same passives, but with techniques we would actually use.

Suppose we picked up a hypothetical "Scouring Winds" AoE debuff art. It wears away at opponents, boosting armor damage and hampering them with wind. Between our Support and Wind bonuses we could easily blow through the first few levels, AND it would have useful techniques, probably soemthing like the offensive ZB successor.


Arts are basically purchased with successes and most of an art's "power" or "value" is tied up in it's techniques. When we talk about what our other arts do for us we barely even mention the passives because the techniques are so great. But when discussing why we want AC the techniques don't even get mentioned because we don't use them. Its techniques just aren't that great for us, so leveling it up is massively overpaying for the power we do get.
 
@ Plan Makers -

Would you consider adding to the SuMa action (assuming you have them)
-- [ ] Share Growing Cavern with the Ma Twins assuming Meizhen agrees

This one is a bit more (potentially) controversial but
-- [ ] Offer Argent Current to Li Suyin, Su Li, Ma Twins, and Bai Meizhen if they'd like to learn it

EDIT: One more thing! You all should restock our anti-divination. Buy 1x Misty Charm to replace the one we used on the Appease the Forest mission and if you're doing the wolf mission with Xiulan, (maybe) buy another for Xiulan.
 
Last edited:
Passive Effects
-User gains a two four die bonus to spiritual defences
-The user regains one qi per combat turn as long as an enemy has been wounded that turn
-The user gains a three four die bonus to perception against any target touching the ground
-The user gains a stacking one die bonus to offensive clashes each time the user damages an enemy. Stacks decay after one turn. (Max 5)
-Constructs created by Abyssal Exhalation are unaffected by the negative aspects of Abyssal Exhalation techniques

Breath of Stygian Depths: oo
Cost 6 qi
The user exhales, expelling the hunger that lies within their soul into their surroundings. This qi takes the form of poisonous purple mist and stretches to encompass twenty thirty meters around the user, reducing lighting to low. The user clashes with all targets within range with a two die bonus. On success, the target suffers a two die penalty to defenses for the turn and loses two qi. This effect repeats each turn for three turns after. In addition, all targets suffer one point of armor degradation per turn spent in the mist. The user may exclude a target from the mists effects for two additional qi per target.

Crawling Horror: ooo
Cost 10 Qi
Effect may only be used in low light or darkness. The user shapes their qi into the mold of the the things which crawl far below the earth. This wormlike creature forms within five meters of the user and acts last in the turn. The worm has three health boxes four health boxes and six qi. It uses the user's attributes for defense and offense, with a five seven die bonus to both pools, and use the techniques dots in place of a mastery. A worm's melee attacks are DV 4, with one point of armor penetration. Targets struck by the worm are grappled, suffering a four die penalty to defense in addition to being unable to move until they break free. Up to one additional worm may be summoned for 6 additional qi. Worms count as Early Yellow/Silver combatants and last three five turns, or until destroyed.
Updated the stats for Abyssal Exhalation.
BoSD gets +2 dice. Crawling Horror gives each worm +4HP and +6Qi, +2 dice to offense & defense, and +2 turns of duration.


~~~
Overall, it looks like it might have potential, as should be expected of a mid+ Yellow art. That doesn't change the fact that it remains subpar. It took us 120 successes to get this level of AE, and it is as far as we can get with 2 meridians. Compare this to some of our other arts. Look at AC2 (50xp), TRF2 (75xp), or FSA4 (125xp); all of which also cost 2 meridians. All of these have passives which are at least as good as AE2's. As for actives?
  • AC2 gives us Pressure Crack, an offensive Instant which gives allies +3 dice and possibly +1 damage for three turns.
  • TRF2 gives us Deepwood Vitality, a defensive Instant which gives us and allies +1HP, +2 Physical Defense for four turns, plus a dispel clash against negative effects.
  • FSA4 gives us Meteorite Strike, which gives us four attacks split any way we want, with +1 damage on each hit.
And what does AE give us? A mist that we aren't going to be willing to use at this level, and a Summon that costs 16 Qi to get us two Early-Yellow level combatants which don't have access to arts, and tiny health/qi pools. It doesn't compare to the above abilities at all.

Like, imagine a Ling Qi (AE) vs Ling Qi (FSA) matchup. AE lets us spend 16 Qi minus discounts to summon 2 worms. FSA lets us shoot four arrows for 7 Qi minus discounts. At two arrows an enemy, and with 2 Autosuccesses due to cultivation, odds are good that will kill the worms, for a net lead of ~9 Qi for the FSA attack. And that is assuming a pre-breakthrough Ling Qi; if we were playing at Early Green instead of Late Yellow, that would be 6 autosuccesses instead of 2, and you could probably get by at 1 arrow a worm and 2 arrows at the AE caster.
 
Last edited:
I don't suggest dropping it at the moment, I object to Black Noise listing AC5 as a requirement and one of our core arts. Leaving as it is for now is my preferred choice.

If and only if someone considers the passives from AC to be truly core I suggest using the successes that would have been used leveling AC5 to instead level another art with the same passives, but with techniques we would actually use.

Suppose we picked up a hypothetical "Scouring Winds" AoE debuff art. It wears away at opponents, boosting armor damage and hampering them with wind. Between our Support and Wind bonuses we could easily blow through the first few levels, AND it would have useful techniques, probably soemthing like the offensive ZB successor.


Arts are basically purchased with successes and most of an art's "power" or "value" is tied up in it's techniques. When we talk about what our other arts do for us we barely even mention the passives because the techniques are so great. But when discussing why we want AC the techniques don't even get mentioned because we don't use them. Its techniques just aren't that great for us, so leveling it up is massively overpaying for the power we do get.
ACs techniques are, at least currently and probably into the future, useful mainly for flute-based sound attacks when FVM is up. AC would have been a godsend for this reason during, say, Dark Dreams. But there have been no fights since then where we had FVM up and wanted to do damage ourselves - either we've been trying to run away or we've had lots of teammates who were doing the damage.

Now AC might not be the best art we could get to use for flute-based sound attacks when FVM is up. But to replace both this function AND the nice passives would certainly take two high level archive arts. Is that worth it? I kinda doubt it. While AC is not burst damage (at least currently - getting another arm meridian at 3 makes it likely that the next technique is another damage dealer) it does fit well as a situational damage dealer while also debuffing an enemy even further. And since it's used without FVM dropping it doesn't need to be have high burst damage to be useful - it fits rather well as part of a package to debuff enemies to death.

Updated the stats for Abyssal Exhalation.
BoSD gets +2 dice. Crawling Horror gives each worm +4HP and +6Qi, +2 dice to offense & defense, and +2 turns of duration.

Overall, it looks like it might have potential, as should be expected of a mid+ Yellow art. That doesn't change the fact that it remains subpar. It took us 120 successes to get this level of AE, and it is as far as we can get with 2 meridians. Compare this to some of our other arts. Look at AC2 (50xp), TRF2 (75xp), or FSA4 (125xp); all of which also cost 2 meridians. All of these have passives which are at least as good as AE2's. As for actives?
  • AC2 gives us Pressure Crack, an offensive Instant which gives allies +3 dice and possibly +1 damage for three turns.
  • TRF2 gives us Deepwood Vitality, a defensive Instant which gives us and allies +1HP, +2 Physical Defense for four turns, plus a dispel clash against negative effects.
  • FSA4 gives us Meteorite Strike, which gives us four attacks split any way we want, with +1 damage on each hit.
And what does AE give us? A mist that we aren't going to be willing to use at this level, and a Summon that costs 16 Qi to get us two Early-Yellow level combatants which don't have access to arts, and tiny health/qi pools. It doesn't compare to the above abilities at all.

Like, imagine a Ling Qi (AE) vs Ling Qi (FSA) matchup. AE lets us spend 16 Qi minus discounts to summon 2 worms. FSA lets us shoot four arrows for 7 Qi minus discounts. At two arrows an enemy, and with 2 Autosuccesses due to cultivation, odds are good that will kill the worms, for a net lead of ~9 Qi for the FSA attack. And that is assuming a pre-breakthrough Ling Qi; if we were playing at Early Green instead of Late Yellow, that would be 6 autosuccesses instead of 2, and you could probably get by at 1 arrow a worm and 2 arrows at the AE caster.

I agree that AE's usefulness is not as high as it's successes cost currently, at least compared to our other arts. I do think that will change when we get to Green however. I think it's quite likely it will be a staple of our build when we're in the Inner Sect. Whether it will be so in time for the tournament is where I am rather unsure. It will depend on AE 3 I think. If that makes the summoned worms mid-Yellow and increases their health boxes/qi/dice further, or gives another summon technique that has better survivability, I think that will be useful enough to push on to AE 4 and possibly AE 5 (depending on if we get Green Appraisal in time of course). But if it still seems like the summons will be total mooks to EVERYONE in the tournament still, it probably won't be worth the effort.
 
I think a better comparison would be FVM4, at 130xp

Mist of the Vale: o
Cost 3
The users melody causes a light mist to roll forth from their instrument. The mist is filled with deceptive shadows and sounds, and weakens the light within to low light. The mist can spread up to a thirty meter radius centered the user. All single target techniques targeted at the user suffer a two dice penalty. The user gains a two die bonus at stealth attempts within the mist. The user may spend an additional two qi for each of up to three allies one qi for each of up to three allies, and two each additional ally. This technique persists as long as the user continues to play and up to four turns afterward.

Breath of Stygian Depths: oo
Cost 6 qi
The user exhales, expelling the hunger that lies within their soul into their surroundings. This qi takes the form of poisonous purple mist and stretches to encompass twenty thirty meters around the user, reducing lighting to low. The user clashes with all targets within range with a two die bonus. On success, the target suffers a two die penalty to defenses for the turn and loses two qi. This effect repeats each turn for three turns after. In addition, all targets suffer one point of armor degradation per turn spent in the mist. The user may exclude a target from the mists effects for two additional qi per target.

If we didn't have FVM this would be more impressive and it doesn't combo as well with SCS, but the art itself seems fine, if not as good for our build.
 
FSA4 cost 15+30+40+60=145. TRF3 30+55+95=180. FZ4 10+20+40+20+40+65+85= 280. Let's be honest a minute.

Also, comparing mid yellow arts by having a cage match between a damage dealer art and a control art with autos? What's next, FSA1 showing its superiority to AM5?
 
If that makes the summoned worms mid-Yellow and increases their health boxes/qi/dice further, or gives another summon technique that has better survivability, I think that will be useful enough to push on to AE 4 and possibly AE 5 (depending on if we get Green Appraisal in time of course). But if it still seems like the summons will be total mooks to EVERYONE in the tournament still, it probably won't be worth the effort.
Even if the summons make Mid Yellow, they would still be total mooks to anyone in the tournament who is at green, which is the vast majority of our competition.

I agree that AE's usefulness is not as high as it's successes cost currently, at least compared to our other arts. I do think that will change when we get to Green however.
Oh, sure - if it gets significantly better. SIGNIFICANTLY better.
 
[X] Plan: Flaming Fire + Woodworking

I sure end up switching a lot with the way these votes work.
Adhoc vote count started by Absum on Dec 23, 2017 at 2:23 PM, finished with 43827 posts and 73 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Flaming Fire + Woodworking
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill; 3 RSS; 1 Yellow stone
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 2 + 10 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6 + 2 + 6+ 4 + 10 + 6 + 8 + 18 + 3= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Work to Unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    [X] Plan: The Final Countdown
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Physical Cultivation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling (Arm Meridian)
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields (Thousand Ring Fortress)
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own (Argent Current)
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Favor for Fu Xiang (2)
    -[X] Minor: Work to Unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan Steady as a Turtle
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Grinning Moon Bonus -> Physical
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Use from inventory: 3 RSS (3), 1 YSS (10), Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] (minor) You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    --[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[X] Do a favor for Fu Xiang
    --[X] Try for x2 Favors, but stop at 1 if the first heist doesn't go too well (i.e. we have used up our reroll)
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Work to unlock the Puzzle Box
    [x] Plan Let's Try This Out
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    ---[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    ---[x] (minor) Work to unlock the Puzzle Box
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[x] Take a job
    -[x] Wolfpack Hunt
    --[x] Invite Xiulan
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[x] You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan Favorless
    -[X] Argent Vent Bonus -> Argent Current
    -[X] Grinning Moon Bonus -> Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Use from inventory: 3 RSS (3), 1 YSS (10), Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18=95RSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Cultivate Argent Current
    -[X] Train at the vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Open Arm Meridian
    --[X] (minor) Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Cultivate Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] (minor) Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Research Dragons, and how one might be appeased
    -[x] Take a job
    --[X] Passion Fruit Collection
    -[X] Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
    -[X] You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[x] You've learned what you can from simply observing Cai Renxiang. Ask her about the capital and about herself
    [X] Plan TOKEN DOOMED RESISTANCE
    -[X] Use: Highsun Pill
    -[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
    -[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
    -[X] EPC Bonus: Abyssal Exhalation
    -[X] Overflow -> Physical
    -[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
    --[X] Arm Meridian
    --[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
    -[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
    --[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
    --[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
    -[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
    --[X] Argent Current
    -[X] Major: Research Dragons, and how they might be appeased
    -[X] Major: Do a Job
    --[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
    --[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
    -[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
    -[X] Minor: Speak with Han Jian, about Argent Storm and the Golden Fields. What is his home like?
    -[X] Minor: Your feelings regarding Gu Tai are... conflicted, maybe you should speak with him a bit. You know where he is staying.
 
And what does AE give us? A mist that we aren't going to be willing to use at this level, and a Summon that costs 16 Qi to get us two Early-Yellow level combatants which don't have access to arts, and tiny health/qi pools. It doesn't compare to the above abilities at all.

Like, imagine a Ling Qi (AE) vs Ling Qi (FSA) matchup. AE lets us spend 16 Qi minus discounts to summon 2 worms. FSA lets us shoot four arrows for 7 Qi minus discounts. At two arrows an enemy, and with 2 Autosuccesses due to cultivation, odds are good that will kill the worms, for a net lead of ~9 Qi for the FSA attack. And that is assuming a pre-breakthrough Ling Qi; if we were playing at Early Green instead of Late Yellow, that would be 6 autosuccesses instead of 2, and you could probably get by at 1 arrow a worm and 2 arrows at the AE caster.
A pure stat matchup between FSA and AE is going to be in AE's favor.

With no other arts, FSA's Meteoric shower (cost 7) allows us to throw out four arrows that are Dex + Archery + FSA passive + Tech dots + bonus dice= 6 + 5 + 3 + 3 + -4 = 13 dice
With no other arts, AE's Crawling horror's allows us to summon 2 minions (cost 16) that are Dex+ tech dots + bonus = 6 + 3 + 7 = 16 dice.

Fighting as a mid yellow against another mid yellow, that would be +1 auto success for them, and that won't be enough damage to kill a worm with 2 shots focused on it. There is a decent chance that the arrow will miss entirely and not do any damage. If we are a late yellow facing a late yellow, that would be +2 autosuccesses, and at that point you could consistently do damage, but I don't think you would be able to do 3 damage a shot to the worms, which you would need to do in order to kill the worms in two shots.

The argument against this is that we need to consider everything about our skills and character in order to see if the worms could survive against us. However, at that point, we would be using other arts to debuff the heck out of the opponent before we bring the worms out, we would have passives to increase the worms durability and damage, we would use TRF to buff up Zhengui and ourselves with Deepwood Vitality, and the worms provide an easy target to fill out the other 2 allies to make the most of the art, especially in a 1 v. 1 tournament.

These worms are too costly to just fling wily nily at monsters like Sun Liling and Meizhen, but they are potent force multipliers for a buff/debuff style build and are worth the continual investment.
 
FSA4 cost 15+30+40+60=145.
It was 15+20+30+60=125. Check the numbers if you want.
I said TR2. 30+55=85.
FZ4 10+20+40+20+40+65+85= 280. Let's be honest a minute.
Clearly, then, FZ4 is an unfair comparison to AE2. On the other hand, FZ2 costs 10+20+40+20+40 = 130, which is about as much as AE's 120. Now look at what FZ2 accomplishes. AE2 doesn't come close to comparing.

Also, comparing mid yellow arts by having a cage match between a damage dealer art and a control art with autos? What's next, FSA1 showing its superiority to AM5?
Well, what comparison do you want to use, then? I showed how Ling Qi would deal with someone using the AE worm summons; would you like to talk about someone else? Sun Liling would blow the whole field up with Red Thorn Death Flight. Meizhen could just ignore the worms, until they attack her and die to her counterattack. Ji Rong is specced for one-vs-many fighting; I'm not sure what he would do, but I suspect that he could take care of it. Xiulan should be able to burn them down in 1-2 AoE attacks. Chu Song would be able to use her flying sword to take care of the worms while she kept fighting us.

Now, all of these are pretty vague, because we don't know the exact numbers for anyone except ourselves, but we should be able to tell more or less how things would go in these matchups, and the answer is that they wouldn't go well.
 
Well, what comparison do you want to use, then? I showed how Ling Qi would deal with someone using the AE worm summons; would you like to talk about someone else? Sun Liling would blow the whole field up with Red Thorn Death Flight. Meizhen could just ignore the worms, until they attack her and die to her counterattack. Ji Rong is specced for one-vs-many fighting; I'm not sure what he would do, but I suspect that he could take care of it. Xiulan should be able to burn them down in 1-2 AoE attacks. Chu Song would be able to use her flying sword to take care of the worms while she kept fighting us.

Now, all of these are pretty vague, because we don't know the exact numbers for anyone except ourselves, but we should be able to tell more or less how things would go in these matchups, and the answer is that they wouldn't go well.

The first levels of any art of looked pretty underwhelming. We have had the same arguments with FVM SCS, and FSA. All of these arts have shown how great they are when we invested in them. Your arguments that looking at the second level of an art to decide it's value have not convinced me. No art is going to be worth much at the starting levels.

The fact is that we will need to start leveling power anyway because WOG is that power can effect dispel techs. The more power we have the better we can keep our arts up and running. Since our stat right now is to create a field of death with FVM and tick them down it is imperative that we keep the field up. Anything that does not attack us or tries to take down the field we made is an action we are closer to winning.

Your arguments about the summons seem flimsy to me. Sun Liling's attack pattern seems to spend large amounts of Qi and then regain some of it through arts like AE or sunflowers. If that is true then the Qi cost of her red thorn death flight would be greater then the cost we spent to create the summons. In that case we win because she spent more qi then us in an action. Ji Rong is good for that one vs many fight but again any action that is taken that is not taking us or the field we made down means we are closing to winning. Xiulan burning them down in an AOE is fine because of how expensive the Qi costs for that is also doesn't take down the field. The Chu Song argument is pointless because we will also have a flying sword so they would fight each other.

One point everyone arguing about AE seems to forget is the absurd amounts of Qi we have. We will likely have Qi amounts that are far beyond anyone else will have plus an instant +25 qi with out pills. It doesn't matter that much if it takes more Qi to make the summons then they spend to kill them because the amount of Qi we spend will be a smaller percentage of our total Qi then the percentage of Qi the opponent spends to kill them.

TL;DR
It doesn't matter that we spend Qi summoning then the opponent does killing because we have so much more Qi. It becomes quantity over quality.
 
A pure stat matchup between FSA and AE is going to be in AE's favor.

With no other arts, FSA's Meteoric shower (cost 7) allows us to throw out four arrows that are Dex + Archery + FSA passive + Tech dots + bonus dice= 6 + 5 + 3 + 3 + -4 = 13 dice
With no other arts, AE's Crawling horror's allows us to summon 2 minions (cost 16) that are Dex+ tech dots + bonus = 6 + 3 + 7 = 16 dice.

Fighting as a mid yellow against another mid yellow, that would be +1 auto success for them, and that won't be enough damage to kill a worm with 2 shots focused on it. There is a decent chance that the arrow will miss entirely and not do any damage. If we are a late yellow facing a late yellow, that would be +2 autosuccesses, and at that point you could consistently do damage, but I don't think you would be able to do 3 damage a shot to the worms, which you would need to do in order to kill the worms in two shots.

The argument against this is that we need to consider everything about our skills and character in order to see if the worms could survive against us. However, at that point, we would be using other arts to debuff the heck out of the opponent before we bring the worms out, we would have passives to increase the worms durability and damage, we would use TRF to buff up Zhengui and ourselves with Deepwood Vitality, and the worms provide an easy target to fill out the other 2 allies to make the most of the art, especially in a 1 v. 1 tournament.

These worms are too costly to just fling wily nily at monsters like Sun Liling and Meizhen, but they are potent force multipliers for a buff/debuff style build and are worth the continual investment.
Okay, lets not count other arts, then.
At the very least, you need to count weapon and talisman bonuses. Between the Blizzard Pin and our Bow, we have +4 to our Archery - and I expect anyone using any sort of offensive art to have bonuses roughly on par with this. In contrast, bonuses to minions or to allies are both something we've never seen on a talisman, and in general would expect NOT to see - so that is a 0 there. Now we are at 17 dice from Meteoric shower to 16 dice for the Worms. With two autos, that gives a 75% chance to hit with each attack. If we count on having the armband and up our qi cost from 7 to 10, the that gives and 4 points of bonus, that gives an 88% chance of hitting. Pretty good chances of a kill too, though it isn't guaranteed; I'm not going to post numbers because I can't get anydice to do the calculations.

I admit that these numbers are a bit smaller than I expected, and the extra survivability REALLY helps the Worms. At AE1, they were made of wet paper; now they are made of dry cardboard. Still something you can punch through, but not something you can punch through trivally. Well, unless you are Sun Liling or something.
 
The first levels of any art of looked pretty underwhelming. We have had the same arguments with FVM SCS, and FSA. All of these arts have shown how great they are when we invested in them. Your arguments that looking at the second level of an art to decide it's value have not convinced me. No art is going to be worth much at the starting levels.
AC2 is worth lots. AM2 is worth lots. TRF2 is worth lots. FZ2 is worth lots (even if you don't count the techs it inherits from ZB). And AE2 is higher level and costs more than any of those.

If that is true then the Qi cost of her red thorn death flight would be greater then the cost we spent to create the summons.
You think Red thorn flight costs more than SIXTEEN Qi before discounts? That seems hard to believe, given the costs for things we've seen ourselves.

One point everyone arguing about AE seems to forget is the absurd amounts of Qi we have. We will likely have Qi amounts that are far beyond anyone else will have plus an instant +25 qi with out pills. It doesn't matter that much if it takes more Qi to make the summons then they spend to kill them because the amount of Qi we spend will be a smaller percentage of our total Qi then the percentage of Qi the opponent spends to kill them.
Our competitors will have as much Qi as we do. E.g. look at Ji Rong, and how he apparently just had 60 Qi in the latest update.

And everyone has the same pills we do, if not better. Or "instant +25" is from from EPC, and that isn't instant; it takes 5min. So we can't use it in the course of a combat.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan TOKEN DOOMED RESISTANCE
-[X] Use: Highsun Pill
-[X] Purchase: Channel Cleansing Pill (2) + Heavy Rains Pill (10) + Gushing Spring Pill (2) + Flowing Rivers Pill (6) + Both Fire Pills (2+6) + Vigorous Sapling Pill (2) + Second Wood Pill (6) + Bear Marrow Elixir (4) + Bear's Heartsblood Elixir (10) + White Hart Elixir (6) + Steady Growth Pill (8) + Sturdy Oak Pill (18)
-[X] Total resources consumed: 3+10+2+10+2+6+2+6+2+6+4+10+6+8+18= 85RSS, 1 YSS, 1 Highsun Pill
-[X] EPC Bonus:
Abyssal Exhalation
-[X] Overflow -> Physical
-[X] Major: Train at the Vent with Su Ling
--[X] Arm Meridian
--[X] Attached Minor: Invite Su Ling to join in and spar with the Ma Sisters. She could use some partners closer to her level, and more friends besides
-[X] Major: Explore and Train with Golden Fields
--[X] Thousand Ring Fortress
--[X] Attached Minor: You never did get to go out have a night on the proverbial town with Xiulan, see if she's still up for that
-[X] Major: Cultivate on your Own
--[X] Argent Current
-[X] Major: Cultivate on your own
--[X] Abyssal Exhalation
-[X] Major: Do a Job
--[X] Wolfpack Hunt: A group of rinefur wolves have moved into the wilderness at the base of the mountains. Numbering nearly a score, with an alpha at the first stages of grade three, they cannot be allowed to remain. Eliminate the pack. 3 points for each slain wolf. 15 for the alpha.
--[X] Invite Gu Xiulan
-[X] Minor: Zhengui's pyre had begun to dim, shrinking no matter how much fuel you add. You should be there when he emerges
-[X] Minor: Meizhen has been disappearing more often, she's even too busy to train this week. What is she up too?
-[X] Minor: Your feelings regarding Gu Tai are... conflicted, maybe you should speak with him a bit. You know where he is staying.

there is now one change to TDR's majors, which is the training of AE, and one change to the minors (HJ changed to Meizhen). TDR as a vanity project of mine expects no votes and is subject entirely to my whims
 
With no other arts, FSA's Meteoric shower (cost 7) allows us to throw out four arrows that are Dex + Archery + FSA passive + Tech dots + bonus dice= 6 + 5 + 3 + 3 + -4 = 13 dice
With no other arts, AE's Crawling horror's allows us to summon 2 minions (cost 16) that are Dex+ tech dots + bonus = 6 + 3 + 7 = 16 dice.
There's also the fact that MS is the 3rd tech of the Art, unlocked when we reached 3rd step of FSA, while the Worms are "only" the 2nd skill of AE unlocked at entry level.
 
BTW, do we still have that first realm Qi Foundation Pill from Elder Su burning a hole in our pocket? Why do we still have it? Everyone worth knowing has been second realm for months, the thing's useless for anything except selling at a mark down now.

The fact is that we will need to start leveling power anyway because WOG is that power can effect dispel techs. The more power we have the better we can keep our arts up and running. Since our stat right now is to create a field of death with FVM and tick them down it is imperative that we keep the field up. Anything that does not attack us or tries to take down the field we made is an action we are closer to winning.
FYI, Power has nothing to do with resisting dispels, that's Resolve and Resilience. Power is meant for casting dispels, and offensive Spiritual techs.

You think Red thorn flight costs more than SIXTEEN Qi before discounts? That seems hard to believe, given the costs for things we've seen ourselves.
We don't know what Red Thorn Death Flight's Qi cost is, but we do know it has another esoteric cost by preventing Sun Liling from acting to defend herself after using it, hence why Cai got a massive free shot in right afterwards.

And we know that a big part of her strategy is to recoup all her expended Qi with her spirit's Qi absorbing sunflower field, so her techniques are probably quite Qi expensive. That's why she was doomed in that fight as soon as we stopped the Qi absorption.
 
Last edited:
I'm gonna say @PrimalShadow has a point; at it's current level AE's techs are basically useless to us; FVM does the breath part better (and has better dice[1]) and Minions are only useful in situations we don't really need them anyway.

That said, AE isn't bad for its level for someone who doesn't have FVM, and it's passives are kinda very nice:
  • +4 to sp.def (better than all our def techs, and sp.def is supposed to be harder than p.def)
  • +4 to perception is comparable if slightly worse than FVM (3+darkvision neutralizing low-light)
  • stacking +1 general offense per enemy wounded, up to +5 (great synergy with basically any offensive arts)
  • qi regen +1/turn max if enemy wounded (fairly limited atm but it's something new which is good for our combat stamina)

AM arguably has passives about as useful in terms of utility and SCS is all kinds of bullshit, but in terms of combat usefulness I think AE is very strong there, especially with how broadly-applicable these passives are.

Now, are the passives enough to justify the +120 success so far investment?

Honestly? No. And if we'd known in advance we might've considered putting it off or forgetting about it entirely. That's not the issue however, sunk costs and all, not like we can un-train it and get those actions back.

What we should be doing is looking at the future and deciding whether further investment is worth the marginal return. Next level is an effective 60 successes away if Thor's plan wins[2], which (with the more significant cost of a new Meridian) will get us AE3.

What can we expect from AE3? A new tech for one; I haven't checked extensively but it seems like every time an art needs a new meridian it also gets a new tech, usually a very useful tech. Lung = constructs, so I'm guessing either something new to do with the Breath, or a stronger Minion variant.

If it's a Breath related, it might make it competitive with FVM mist and thus worth layering on top (provided dice issues are addressed). Probably the less useful option unless it's a qi-steal effect that amps the regen, in which case it's very useful. If it's a new minion, I expect something more useful than Worms currently are. Maybe even a Late Yellow minion?

Besides those, we can expect assorted tech and passive improvements, which would be nice since they're all very useful to have in combat.

Overall, it's most likely worth spending the 2-3 actions to get AE3 and the meridian for it. Anything further than that will require a long and hard look at just how useful the breath and minions look like they'll be for our tournament-time combat strategy, and how much we even want to train Power.

[1] an aside on AE vs FVM dice:
We're all vaguely aware our FVM dice are shit, and AE dice are even worse, but here's how much:
AE Breath: Int 5 + Power 2 + Equip 0 + Passives 0 + buffs 0 + tech 2 + activation 2 = 11, subsequent turns lose the activation 2 for 9 total
FVM: Manip 5 + Expr 6 + Equip 4 (pin 2, flute 2) + buffs 0 + tech 0 + activation 2 = 17
Most notably, FVM currently enjoys 4 dice in equipment, and 4 point difference in mastery.

Equipment: we probably won't replace or modify Pin to also boost Darkness, but there's no reason we can't pick up weapon compatible with AE, and +dice to Power test is nice if we ever want strong dispels, still; equipment goes in FVM's favor by at least +2.

Tech+passives: FVM of the future might (finally) allows it's passive +2 expr to affect itself, but then AE's breath might (and probably will) gain more dice, so the theoretical dice advantage kinda goes to AE, if we had the Power for it. In practice AE's dice advantage covers for its comparatively lower mastery dots.

Conditional passives like SCS and (ironically) AE's own ramping buff apply in equal measure to both. Though 1st turn FVM mist doesn't actually damage anyone so AE gets +1 point earlier.

Further Music techs might have passives that further help FVM.

Buffs: currently we've got nothing, and together with the lack of passives it's the reason our dice are so bad. We've been relying on conditional stuff to get by, but it's no longer cutting it. A general spiritual buff (which seems to be the direction we're going?) helps AE and FVM in equal measure, both with passives and techs.

Conclusion: With a good weapon, a buff art and another 2-3 dots of power (should be doable if we vote to train it, which is a good idea in any case for the Dispel stat), AE will have comparable dice to FVM and both will be in a serviceable 25-30 range. We don't really need much more with our conditionals and subsequent -def debuffs allowing for an easier debuff layering. If we'll get more music arts FVM's might even be respectably high.
[2] not like we have a better place to put EPC successes this turn.
 
And we know that a big part of her strategy is to recoup all her expended Qi with her spirit's Qi absorbing sunflower field, so her techniques are probably quite Qi expensive. That's why she was doomed in that fight as soon as we stopped the Qi absorption.
We do not know that this is "a big part of her strategy". We know it is a thing she has done. Once.

What can we expect from AE3? A new tech for one; I haven't checked extensively but it seems like every time an art needs a new meridian it also gets a new tech, usually a very useful tech. Lung = constructs, so I'm guessing either something new to do with the Breath, or a stronger Minion variant.

If it's a Breath related, it might make it competitive with FVM mist and thus worth layering on top (provided dice issues are addressed). Probably the less useful option unless it's a qi-steal effect that amps the regen, in which case it's very useful. If it's a new minion, I expect something more useful than Worms currently are. Maybe even a Late Yellow minion?

Besides those, we can expect assorted tech and passive improvements, which would be nice since they're all very useful to have in combat.

Overall, it's most likely worth spending the 2-3 actions to get AE3 and the meridian for it. Anything further than that will require a long and hard look at just how useful the breath and minions look like they'll be for our tournament-time combat strategy, and how much we even want to train Power.
A few notes on this. AE3 requires an additional meridian, and meridians are already very much a non-trivial cost. If we were just keeping AE for the passives, we would want to stop at AE2, or push ahead to AE4 to fill up what we can do in 3 meridians. Honestly, I strongly doubt that the difference between AE4 and AE2's passives is worth 200+ successes plus a meridian.

Furthermore. Breath is problematic because it requires us to pay for excluding all of our allies from it, after we've pay for that with FVM already. And lining up the ranges is going to be a major pain. Honestly, I find it hard to imagine a situation where I would want to use Breath after we have FVM up. If we haven't used Elegy, I would do that first. If we have, I'd probably start using AC+FZ or TRF or something. If we are sticking with having AE, we might even summon the worms there. But doing Breath at that point doesn't seem like it would be our best call. So basically, when we develop AE, we are more-or-less writing its first tech off entirely.
 
Back
Top