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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Arkeus said:
ZB+ being in the second floor archive pretty much means it's significantly higher quality than FSA. Think of it as slightly lower quality than AM or AC, both of which begin in late red and have 5 levels too.

That's the comparison you should be making.
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But anything we got from a general Wind art search would also be second floor. By definition. Telling me to compare arts by floor isn't helpful when I want an art on the same floor as ZB+, but with higher base cultivation.

COME ON. at least READ my complaints—which, again I'll admit, are belated because I forgot/didn't have the time until today.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Why can't it be an 8 level art? If you start low enough, it is easy enough to have lots of levels.
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Then the question becomes: "where does it end" Fleeting Zephyr most likely has an upgrade in the green level but is that going to be ZB 9-13? There have been clear times when the cost of training an art has doubled, and the longer the art chain is the higher than "jump" is going to be.

There is also the question of why is it called a different name. Fleeting Zephyr is not ZB. They are related, but only like a father and son are related, they are not the same continuation of the person. A clear example of this is what we are getting from Fleeting Zephyr. We are probably not going to be getting Shielding gale or against the wind. We might get a boost to Guiding Zypher, maybe.

Fleeting Zephyr is going to take over the meridians that ZB had, but if we wanted to, we could presumably open up two more meridians and equip ZB again, we wouldn't be able to do that if ZB became Fleeting Zephyr.

Another example is @yrsillar saying that we won't need to level up ZB again should we want Driving Zephyr or zephyr's heart. This indicates to me that ZB is not subsumed by FZ. If ZH can be learned without needing to level up ZB again, then why would FZ piggyback off of ZB?
 
Does one of our friends have Wind arts? We keep sharing our stuff, maybe we can ask them if they know of a good site.
 
Neshuakadal said:
We have qi sense now right? That is how we found Xiulian family training ground right? Could we not just look for a high amount of wind qi? We should do that.
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I mean, my suggestion was to take the "Capture Storm Spirits" mission next week (if we can) and find where the baby storm spirits congregate. That is almost guaranteed to be a strong wind qi site.
 
tricholysis said:
But anything we got from a general Wind art search would also be second floor. By definition. Telling me to compare arts by floor isn't helpful when I want an art on the same floor as ZB+, but with higher base cultivation.

COME ON. at least READ my complaints—which, again I'll admit, are belated because I forgot/didn't have the time until today.
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And what we're saying that an art that starts at late red compared to one that starts at early yellow is a bit nitpicky of a complaint, and you're clogging up the thread with your nuclear reactor levels of salt.
 
tryrar said:
And what we're saying that an art that starts at late red compared to one that starts at early yellow is a bit nitpicky of a complaint, and you're clogging up the thread with your nuclear reactor levels of salt.
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'shut up and do what I in particular want rather than be your own person' and 'it's fiiiiiiiiine your finger will grow back' isn't exactly convincing me here
 
tricholysis said:
But anything we got from a general Wind art search would also be second floor. By definition. Telling me to compare arts by floor isn't helpful when I want an art on the same floor as ZB+, but with higher base cultivation.

COME ON. at least READ my complaints—which, again I'll admit, are belated because I forgot/didn't have the time until today.
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Sure, but again second floor art begins at either late red/gold, or early yellow/silver, and there is no reason to think that the latter arts are 'better' than the formers. After all, Argent Mirror begins at late red and is definitely very good for us at level 3 or so.

This is why I said we should compare it to those arts.
 
tricholysis said:
'shut up and do what I in particular want rather than be your own person' and 'it's fiiiiiiiiine your finger will grow back' isn't exactly convincing me here
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Look, let's approach it from this angle. We know what roughly the three choices we're voting for do. Now, imagine we found an art that does the exact same thing as say, driving zephyr for example, but was early yellow instead. Please explain how much better you think it would be compared to the late red choices, because your main problem is you're really not communicating why you think it would have been better to do so other than "yellow arts are better."
 
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tricholysis said:
isn't exactly convincing me here
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I mean what facts do I need to uncover or assumptions that I need to successfully argue in order to convince you?

I can give you a couple of facts and assumptions that need to be made in order to convince me that ZB+ is not what we wanted
Facts to uncover: ZB+ does not go past Mid silver; ZB+ does not upgrade ZB in a substantial way; ZB+ does not upgrade
Assumptions to argue: ZB+ is a low quality art; ZB+ does not improve our kit

I mean, if you are able to uncover those facts and successfully argue those assumptions then I would agree with the statement you are making. But if you want me to convince you that ZB+ is what we wanted and is great, then you need to be willing to give me some facts and assumptions that I can use to demonstrate.

If we don't do that, then each of us is just going to be yelling at an unmoveable wall and that is not fun for me or you.
 
Thor's Twin said:
I mean, we get +6 dice to wind arts from Clear Skies and White Hart Elixir; then we get +9 dice to wind arts from Sky pill; That equals +15 dice to wind arts. Combine that with the +30 dice from stones and we get 45 dice minimum to our attempts. Add another 22 dice from Eightfold path pills and we have 67 dice to throw at wind arts.

Add in 7 dice because it is yin aspected and we are at 74 dice towards ZB+. Another 6 because of our talent and we are at 80 dice for wind arts. Train with Meizhen for an additional 5 dice and we have 85 dice to throw at ZB+. And that's without finding a good wind site to train at. If we find a good wind site through exploration or more wind pills in the market or Yan Renshu's hideout, we could reach 90, 95, or even 100 dice being thrown at a wind art. And each stage takes -15 successes, which means we will be dramatically increasing the ranks.
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Speaking of, latest vote had the planmakers changing the pills last minutes to give 'actual names' of pills, but it seems you and @Broken25 deleted 'level 1 wind pill' and didn't add Clear Wind Pill.

So, huh, we are having -3 to ZB+ unless @yrsillar is feeling nice.
 
Arkeus said:
Sure, but again second floor art begins at either late red/gold, or early yellow/silver, and there is no reason to think that the latter arts are 'better' than the formers.
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tryrar said:
why you think it would have been better to do so other than "yellow arts are better."
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they are

they are better sort of by definition

yellow have more dice partly because they have more stuff, partly because their stuff is better

otherwise there's no point in leveling arts, for, what was it? game balance and story reasons? that's what I was told about floor. pretty much exactly.

Yes, AM is good. That is...a particular. TRF has a lot of advantages over FSA, which I attribute partly to quality admittedly, but partly it is just an art with a higher base. Is it fair to say that TRF's better than FSA? Apparently not....

Look, SCS and FVM began at early red for Ling Qi. I know that 'level of beginning cultivation' isn't something that declares that for all of time SCS will forever be shit. No, SCS and FVM are arts that are roughly on par with Ling Qi's own cultivation now. They're effective and powerful because she prioritises them. She's raised them from little things at early red into their current form—because they're mid or late yellow, and not early red anymore.

But don't you remember? One of the arguments for ZB+ was 'immediate impact'. Right? Which will give more immediate impact—the late red or the early yellow art? Again...just...by definition, isn't it the higher art? Yes, ZB+ will eventually reach Mid yellow at least, maybe even late, and then ZB++ is Green probably. But why is Ling Qi fiddling around with a late red art for immediate impact? The people defending ZB just...aren't making any sense, unless they want ZB specifically because it's ZB and not actually because of what they were arguing.

Thor's Twin said:
I can give you a couple of facts and assumptions that need to be made in order to convince me that ZB+ is not what we wanted
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that's not what I'm arguing

I'm arguing that ZB+ had its time and its time is past, that Ling Qi should be working on more relevant things, that she would get more bang for her buck spending successes and ELDER lessons on something more advanced. that has always been my argument—ZB+ is SETTLING. and I don't want Ling Qi to SETTLE. she's not a settling kind of girl
 
tricholysis said:
But don't you remember? One of the arguments for ZB+ was 'immediate impact'. Right? Which will give more immediate impact—the late red or the early yellow art? Again...just...by definition, isn't it the higher art? Yes, ZB+ will eventually reach Mid yellow at least, maybe even late, and then ZB++ is Green probably. But why is Ling Qi fiddling around with a late red art for immediate impact? The people defending ZB just...aren't making any sense, unless they want ZB specifically because it's ZB and not actually because of what they were arguing.
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'Immediate Impact' is true because getting ZB+ 'updates' ZB to a better form, and a level 1 ZB+ that's late gold is going to be better than a level 1 X art that's early silver but doesn't have another 3 levels behind it.

An early yellow art is usually going to be better than a late red one, definitely, but it's like how EPC1 was strictly worse than AS5, in that getting a new art barely learned at early yellow is not better than a late red art that has 4 levels of improvements behind it, even if it's both higher stage and higher quality.
 
@tricholysis that only works if you assume ZB+ being a successor art plays no role in quality. We don't know much about mechanics of art quality and since it hasn't been clarified OOC, the only thing to do is test it and see if ZB+ is worthwhile.
 
Arkeus said:
Speaking of, latest vote had the planmakers changing the pills last minutes to give 'actual names' of pills, but it seems you and @Broken25 deleted 'level 1 wind pill' and didn't add Clear Wind Pill.
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I mean, I didn't? It is just near the end.

I want people to use the actual names of the pills because we have the names of the pills. It just seems lazy not to use them when they have been provided.
 
tricholysis said:
the second floor, pay attention

we know for a fact that the second floor has yellow arts, yrsillar told us this ages ago. the third floor 'has some green stuff'
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And? It's a successor art. The simple fact that it's in red might be its bonus.

It's a second floor art. While in red. Despite the fact that second floor is supposed to be for yellow art. Do you really think it's worse than an yellow art? Despite being put aside from the red art?
 
[X] Fleeting Zephyr: An evolution of the common wind arts of the south. This branch focuses upon utility, guiding the user and their allies on fleet spring winds, granting them speed and fleetness of foot to escape or flank their foes.
 
Arkeus said:
'Immediate Impact' is true because getting ZB+ 'updates' ZB to a better form, and a level 1 ZB+ that's late gold is going to be better than a level 1 X art that's early silver but doesn't have another 3 levels behind it.

An early yellow art is usually going to be better than a late red one, definitely, but it's like how EPC1 was strictly worse than AS5, in that getting a new art barely learned at early yellow is not better than a late red art that has 4 levels of improvements behind it, even if it's both higher stage and higher quality.
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the point about 'upgrading' ZB is true for any new art that uses the same meridians (two heart, I think?). everything that ZB+ has going for it in terms of convenience and usability also applies to several other arts even in combination. arts aren't exactly equipment or skills, so an analogy along those lines might fall flat, but we don't need to find a use for everything Ling Qi has ever learned or gained. people aren't going about looking for a use for Academics, Bureaucracy, or Ling Qi's Sleight of Hand specialty, because they're unnecessary. it's fine to let ZB fall by the wayside. you don't need to babysit the rattata you caught first even if it does evolve into raticate, because ultimately even hyper fang sucks.
 
Arkeus said:
Ah, it seems people copying your pill usage deleted everything after skyblood elixir
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Yeah, I hope they didn't copy my pill usage. I mean I provided a good break down of costs for some people's pills and that's what people seem to have copied.

I mean, I didn't have any water pills in my list, and other people have water pills in their lists. So I think that is what they copied.
 
Definitively not impressed with ZB+, but since a choice has to be made:

[X]Fleeting Zephyr: An evolution of the common wind arts of the south. This branch focuses upon utility, guiding the user and their allies on fleet spring winds, granting them speed and fleetness of foot to escape or flank their foes.

Speed is realistically the best option, as enough speed should eventually result in higher dodge rate, initiative and even actions per turn. So, beyond the speed itself, it should boost defense and offense too. Hopefully.

The best Driving can offer on the other hand is increased dmg dice and maybe armor penetrating dmg. Meaning, only offense.
As to how wind would empower our allies ranged attacks (which are mainly arts themselves) is up in the air.
 
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tricholysis said:
the point about 'upgrading' ZB is true for any new art that uses the same meridians (two heart, I think?). everything that ZB+ has going for it in terms of convenience and usability also applies to several other arts even in combination. arts aren't exactly equipment or skills, so an analogy along those lines might fall flat, but we don't need to find a use for everything Ling Qi has ever learned or gained. people aren't going about looking for a use for Academics, Bureaucracy, or Ling Qi's Sleight of Hand specialty, because they're unnecessary. it's fine to let ZB fall by the wayside. you don't need to babysit the rattata you caught first even if it does evolve into raticate, because ultimately even hyper fang sucks.
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My point is that ZB+1 will be stronger or at least as strong as Deadly Wind1 that begins at yellow and does the same thing. Because it has 3 levels behind it to make it stronger.
yrsillar said:
They will replace the earlier arts. It basically functions as if the art were just broken up into discrete chunks with you needed a new key jade slip to be allowed to level it up.
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