- Location
- Brazil
Because FSA is the first on a series of arts that was made by an Imperial General inspired by the stars themselves. It probably ends with us shooting Meteor Swarms.
ZB we might as well have found on a cereal box.
Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
ZB we might as well have found on a cereal box.
- Location
- scrabbling
when Jiao realises Ling Qi isn't joking when she says she wants him to work with her on ZB+ he is going to be just as salty as me
- Location
- United Kingdom
It starts at late gold, but it has 5 ranks in total to improve. IMO it's worth it.
And since when was this a bandwagon? It was the 4th plan made, and it's not like there wasn't discussion on whether to get ZB+ or not.
We know ZB doesn't compare to our other arts. That's why we're improving it. If you're on board with getting a Wind Art anyway, what's so bad about improving an art we already have, as opposed to getting a completely new Wind Art?
That's not true. Look at the evolution of the plan; ZB+ was always in it. Blade training? Not so much.
- Location
- Brazil
Well, we might have lost the apprenticeship, so hey, at least we might figure out we ain't quite at the bottom of this hole.
Maybe he will crack and give us something better out of disgust. Lets not forget Yrsillar himself commented on how investing in FSA and it's successors is worth it due to being a high-tier art, while something like ZB+ isn't worth it to someone like Ling Qi, at least not anymore.
- Location
- Brazil
Because ZB series is the equivalent of mass produced chinese knock-offs.
And thus, a massive waste of our time.
Even more so as we seem to be getting some shit movement art when we already have SCS.
Driving Zephyr won't be affected by debuff negation, so it's something we can use when some asshole is throwing off FVM. And this idea that few of our allies use ranged attacks, uh, where did that come from? Xiulan is almost all ranged, and almost everyone has something.
Plus, if we're using Elder Jiao to work on our bladework, why not work on the art that enhances our blades? It hardly makes sense to train Fleeting Zephyr using knives.
Plus, if we're using Elder Jiao to work on our bladework, why not work on the art that enhances our blades? It hardly makes sense to train Fleeting Zephyr using knives.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Fleeting Zephyr to train knives? That's actually not a bad idea, because knives are best when you can control the distance and shift from throwing to melee.
Not necessarily the best idea, but nobody wanted to train Argent Current. We just barely got out of forcing training of War.
Not necessarily the best idea, but nobody wanted to train Argent Current. We just barely got out of forcing training of War.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Starting Crimson Flow and continuing ZB aren't the same thing though. We've invested in ZB enough that it's worthwhile to continue it. There's also the idea that this is a good way to see the actual use of successor arts. Talking shit about them already is premature.
But that's nothing but fluff, pretty sure ZB+ is better than FSA. Besides, if ZB+ is crap I'd say that indicates FSA+ will be too. In that case, we might as well drop it for something better on the third floor.
First; we've yet to be disappointed by an art; so why don't you hold off on finalizing your opinion before you've, I dunno, actually SEEN the advanced version of the art?
Second. SCS may be a movement art, but it is not a dedicated speed art, and it is certainly not a GROUP speed art. We've already made a habit of grabbing someone and running; it came up twice with Su Ling during Investigations & Disappearances, and then again in Growing Pains, and it could have come up when we met the hungry giant in the Dark Dreams event if we were less lucky and failed to kill it by the time it reached the fields. This is a capability not covered by SCS, and it shouldn't be treated as competition to SCS.
- Location
- scrabbling
FVM and SCS have been improved along with Ling Qi's cultivation. They're also the MVPs of her art suite. Hm.
Meanwhile FSA and TRF are pretty okay. Well, they're lower level. And we can't be arsed to put in the time to max FSA. And we just haven't had the time to max TRF, since we got it late.
Now, TRF is still better than FSA. FSA is routinely sidelined in our plans and tactics because, well, it's just not impressive. Meteoric Shower or whatever that tech was got a 'pretty neat we can do this thing for 11 qi that blinds people'...after Ling Qi got an item that mitigates penalties. TRF got a resounding 'Yes I'm glad we spent that Elder lesson on this art'. The thread is just more impressed and happy with arts of high quality.
Also, TRF is higher cultivation base than FSA, so even though their levels are relatively even, the effects of TRF are often exciting and obviously more powerful than FSA's. So the thread is happier when we get arts that are closer to our own cultivation level.
Hm.
Again, like FVM and SCS, AM and AC, and TRF.
Hm.
Now, what art is Ling Qi picking up, that not only is being picked up LATE and therefore won't be a focus of plans a la TRF's levels, won't have the TIME to max a la FSA's sidelining, not only is lower cultivation base than the impressive and strong arts that she has, AAAAAND is also LOWER QUALITY by a HUUUUUUGE margin?
...
hm.
Other Wind arts might not have these problems. Of course I wouldn't mind ANYTHING better than ZB+.
The major plan did not get its votes based off of its inclusion of ZB+. It got its votes for 'other things' like its combination of sharing AC/stealth approach/minors until it was leading 20 to 4 or something like that.
Bandwagon doesn't have to happen early.
Then any plan made to combat it to leave out ZB+ couldn't get traction, and the people in control of the plan refused to change ZB+—only changing their OTHER horrible decision as some sort of 'compromise'. I admit I forgot to suggest ZB+ being changed to 'find some wind arts including ZB+', but that's a search that's been suggested and discussed previously in thread.
I questioned War early. Then I had to come back and question it AGAIN. ZB+ was a struggle point from early on, and people got invested and it become about ZB+ specifically more than Archive searching.
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- Location
- Panama City
Because ZB was meant to be chained off off several progressively higher arts IIRC. You might think this is a waste of time, but it won, get over it.
[X] Driving Zephyr: An evolution of the common wind arts of the south. This branch focuses upon offense, driving forth allied missiles on the scathing eastern winds to strike home in the heart of the enemy
I don't mind which one wins, but more offense might be better
Xiulan uses ranged attacks, sure. But DZ affect PROJECTILES in particular.
Also, base FVM (i.e. MotV) can't be throwing off by debuff negation, since it is an environmental effect. I guess the other parts can be thrown off, but if so we should just spend our time casting TRF or the like. Or, you know, actually making ranged attacks instead of using buffs/debuffs. It isn't like we don't have enough to do as it is.
- Location
- scrabbling
The advantages of ZB+ and maybe ZB++ are basically: wind art, cheap in meridians, sunken cost.
Uh. At least one of these also applies to all other wind arts. At least another applies to some subset of wind arts, and besides which meridians are comparatively cheap for Ling Qi because of Sable Light in the future. And the last is literally the name of a fallacy.
Uh. At least one of these also applies to all other wind arts. At least another applies to some subset of wind arts, and besides which meridians are comparatively cheap for Ling Qi because of Sable Light in the future. And the last is literally the name of a fallacy.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
OK, those are cool as heck.
I was a bit dumb and was thinking there would be a offense/movement of allies buff one, and a Defense/movement and enemies one, or maybe different branches focusing on different aspects of using the wind like a sniper art, a wind mantle art, going through all the secondary meridians.
However, @yrsillar managed to do a real fighting style there, mainly about a group leader of skirmishers. Using Driving Zephyr to turn the enemies into pincushions, Zephyr's heart to weather the enemies' attacks and tries to keep them away, and Fleeting Zephyr to dictate the battlefield.
I can really see a different Ling Qi which didn't get SCS and FVM, and without monsters in her year. getting Zephyr's Breath and another art through exploration, doing sort of OK through thunderdom but not great- however managing to lead a few of the more less rich students there, and then creating her own band of archers by getting all three arts.
This is obviously not relevant to us, as we do not have a well-formed group focusing on ranged attacks (or at least each having a ranged art) that we command. However, this is still cool as heck.
Also, something I haven't seen people mention: Zephyr's heart seems optimal for Ling Qi's own need of "keeping enemies at bay". As such I wouldn't say it completely overlap with TRF, especially as we do have a few squishy allies that could greatly benefit from it. However, while the overlap is not complete, it's definitely best in my mind to focus on an art that brings something completely new to us that was also shown to be a big weakness in many different updates. I'm currently thinking that our defensive arts are 'good' currently, so while Zephyr's heart does bring something to the table, Ling Qi herself is not one of those squishies anymore.
Zephyr's Drive is probably really fucking powerful, and would probably end up being our go-to for damage, greatly increasing our ability to deal damage and to help our ranged allies deal it. Moreoever, it 'fits' the best with having a lesson on Throwing Knives. However, while Suyin and Xiulan both are greatly helped with it, that's pretty much all currently. Zhengui might or might not get a real ranged art, and Han Jian likewise. That makes it somewhat circumstancial when it comes to ally benefit if the techniques only work for ranged attack, not all attacks. There is also the possibility that it overlaps a lot with AC.
Fleeting Zephyr, for me, has none of those weaknesses. It will help consistently act first in our turn, which is hugely important as a support. It will help our allies act faster, too, and if all of us can act before our opponents, it's a big deal. Being able to run away, or run faster to a fight, is also very important. We don't quite know what the art gives, but I think it would have been hugely useful in Disappearance, Growing Pains or Dark Dreams, both of them.
ZB was 50% of the purpose of that plan, and filled most of the discussion. Like half the people voting for it mentioned ZB as one of their reasons.
- Location
- USA
Where is all of this stuff about ZB being much lower quality from FSA come from? There are two differences between FSA and ZB: FSA focuses entirely on bow attacks made by ourselves, while ZB buffs and debuffs a variety of things (ranged attacks, defensive from ranged attacks, speed and initiative), AND does them for groups rather than an individual. OF COURSE FSA is better at its one job than ZB is at any of its jobs. The second difference is that FSA started at a little higher level, but honestly most of the difference between them is due to FSA being focused and ZB not being focused.
Do you have any evidence otherwise?
What? For both game balance reasons and in universe reasons second floor archive arts are going to be better than first floor archive arts. They are SUPPOSED to be more advanced. And quite frankly I'd be very surprised if they weren't.
Where are you getting this idea that ZB is so horrible? It's from the first floor of the archive, same as FSA. It starts at a lower level, doesn't get as many level ups, and is less focused than FSA, yes. But I would be quite surprised if ZB+, in ANY variety we're choosing here, wasn't better than FSA. It will be more focused like FSA, start at a similar level and have more level ups.
I think ZB+ will be about as good as any other wind art in the second floor of the archive, and ZB++ will be about as good as any other wind art in the third floor of the archive. Both because in-universe I doubt the Elders give you "trap" arts which are obviously weaker than others in the archive. And because out of universe Yrsillar ain't going to screw us over like this.
Do you have any evidence otherwise?
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No, it'll use separate meridians and such, rather than stacking on.
For the record - we currently have 5+15+35=55 total successes invested in ZB. Sooo... between one and two training actions worth? I guess you class that as "enough" to make it worth continuing in?
- Location
- scrabbling
ZB+ is, IMO, equivalent to FSA in quality. Which is uninspiring.
You'll notice that no one suggested training FSA with Elder Jiao even after my vaguely popular rant on putting our best foot forward (and what better foot does Ling Qi have than her archery, music, and stealth?) So even if ZB+ is a specific reason for people to have voted for a plan, it's a bad one. It'll be 'okay' eventually, after Ling Qi works it up five levels and is Green, and then it'll be outdated immediately. Getting a general Wind Art search for something higher would be so much more palatable—for one thing Ling Qi wouldn't be working from behind herself.
You'll notice that no one suggested training FSA with Elder Jiao even after my vaguely popular rant on putting our best foot forward (and what better foot does Ling Qi have than her archery, music, and stealth?) So even if ZB+ is a specific reason for people to have voted for a plan, it's a bad one. It'll be 'okay' eventually, after Ling Qi works it up five levels and is Green, and then it'll be outdated immediately. Getting a general Wind Art search for something higher would be so much more palatable—for one thing Ling Qi wouldn't be working from behind herself.
- Location
- Not Telling
[X]Fleeting Zephyr: An evolution of the common wind arts of the south. This branch focuses upon utility, guiding the user and their allies on fleet spring winds, granting them speed and fleetness of foot to escape or flank their foes.
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- Location
- Panama City
What wind art would you have liked then? Given that for about 500 pages IIRC people have been talking about getting ZB+, you'll have to specify what art you feel would have been superior
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Why do you think he'd actually consider an apprenticeship? I'm surprised he even pays attention enough to a low level scrub to know our position in Cai's horde. I doubt he has any real interest in training us.
Yeah. Pretty much if we learn an art I'd rather not just drop it so I want ZB to be useable.
Why do you think they're of equal quality? Besides, I'd say a major part in why people are less interested in training FSA is how situational it is wherease Fleeting Zephyr is another stackable buff that we don't have to drop the flute to use.
- Location
- scrabbling
You'll notice I've (belatedly) been suggesting a general Wind art search for something more grade-appropriate for Ling Qi. Almost anything, as long as it's more advanced. Ling Qi's good at Wind, I'm sure she can handle it.
She's a big girl, she should be past reading The Hungry Caterpillar 2. She'd have much more fun reading Harry Potter.