Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Quite honestly, I feel that we need to make inroads with Han Jian as a friend before we try to merge the groups together like that.

Also, I have changed my plan regarding this four different times. There are serious arguments to be made for joining the groups together, but I won't feel comfortable with it until we know that we want to stick with Han Jian's group longer term. In order to do that, we will need to spend time with him and get him as a friend.

Wait, what.

We were thinking of leaving Han Jian??? Is this why we're not sharing the vent with him? We're scared he'll become competition?????

What is even going on anymore.
 
Wait, what.

We were thinking of leaving Han Jian??? Is this why we're not sharing the vent with him? We're scared he'll become competition?????

What is even going on anymore.

If we don't share the vent, all the things that are putting pressure are going to keep getting worse. If they find out about the vent, or figure it out, they're going to get MUCH worse. On the other hand, maybe things will go horribly wrong if we treat Su Ling and Li Suyin like adults and let them negotiate access.

Basically our Han Jian and group relationship is on a timer at the moment, we have to take a risk that might impact another relationship to extend it. If you value the second relationship but not the first, then letting Han Jian and group fall away is better then risking our friendship with Suyin.

I'm not convinced we ARE risking our relationship with Suyin but letting her negotiate the for the resources she needs to train... but other people do feel that way.
 
We were thinking of leaving Han Jian??? Is this why we're not sharing the vent with him? We're scared he'll become competition?????

Only 16 people graduate, and many of those 16 slots are already claimed by people like Cai or by older disciples.

This is a zero-sum game. Any advantage we give to one group of friends hurts our other group of friends by reducing their graduation chances, and vise versa. Every single person here is in a competition. Bai was always going to be one of the 16, so sharing the vent with her isn't a big deal, but suddenly adding Han and all his friends? Giving all of them this massive power-boost, making all of them competitors?
 
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Hmm, Cai mentioned that the criteria for invitation to the meeting was to have reached second realm and not be vassal to another. So maybe there are more people who have reached second realm but are not there?
 
Oh god, maybe the let them negotiate idea was the right idea. Just tell Suyin and Su Ling about the potential to trade access to the vent for resources (training, stones, etc.), about the tournament at the end of the year for Inner Sect status, and let them decide I guess. We're not their parents.
 
Oh god, maybe the let them negotiate idea was the right idea. Just tell Suyin and Su Ling about the potential to trade access to the vent for resources (training, stones, etc.), about the tournament at the end of the year for Inner Sect status, and let them decide I guess. We're not their parents.

That's what my plan does. At which point, we can wash our hand of the issues and not waste more actions on it and go back to cultivating like a Cultivator.
 
If we don't share the vent, all the things that are putting pressure are going to keep getting worse. If they find out about the vent, or figure it out, they're going to get MUCH worse. On the other hand, maybe things will go horribly wrong if we for us if we treat Su Ling and Li Suyin like adults and let them negotiate access.

Basically our Han Jian and group relationship is on a timer at the moment, we have to take a risk that might impact another relationship to extend it. If you value the second relationship but not the first, then letting Han Jian and group fall away is better then risking our friendship with Suyin.

I'm not convinced we ARE risking our relationship with Suyin but letting her negotiate the for the resources she needs to train... but other people do feel that way.

Yeah, I know, I pointed this out... holy shit, nearly a hundred and eighty pages ago, but less than two weeks. We're averaging more than ten pages of discussion a day daaaaaang.

I'm not sure how much has been said, but I think we NEED to bring Han Jian to the Argent Vent soon if we want to retain his friendship. My previous understanding that he'd only been cultivating for a few months meant I thought his talent was significantly higher than it was. If he finds out we've been squirreling away such a resource (I'm guessing him to be around Talent 3, 5 auto successes for anything would be a HUGE deal to him) he's going to feel ill-used especially if we start to eclipse him in a major way.

Like, let's not forget us getting into Zhou's advanced course was largely thanks to him. He patiently explained a lot of shit and continues to patiently explain a lot of shit. We're kind of riding on his rep and family to stay in one piece when not around Bai. Like, I highly doubt any of his friends would help us if he decided to cut us off, and that represents half of the connections we've made.

And, in the end, forgetting all the realpolitik, because I doubt he'd be that vindictive, maybe just mildly disappointed, we do owe him.

Like, we can easily spin the joint training as seeing if Li and Su would be willing to share the resource and it being... not that resounding a success means that we can make our sharing it with him conditional on him making sure Gu and Fan behave themselves around Su and Li, and maybe help them out if possible. We even have the social modicum of savvy to plan things like that.

We are going to eclipse him at some point. It's inevitable, especially if he's been working on his cultivation for years. I really don't want him to feel resentment about it, and I think he will, especially if he has far more talented siblings/family.

Only 16 people graduate, and many of those 16 slots are already claimed by people like Cai or by older disciples.

This is a zero-sum game. Any advantage we give to one group of friends hurts our other group of friends by reducing their graduation chances, and vise versa. Every single person here is in a competition. Bai was always going to be one of the 16, so sharing the vent with her isn't a big deal, but suddenly adding Han and all his friends? Giving all of them this massive power-boost, making all of them competitors?

I was trying to point out that sheer ridiculousness of deciding whether or not to break ties with Han Jian as being part of our friendship calculus dictating whether or not to bring him and his buds to the vent, but oh my god it's for real. This is actually a thing. We have gone from just trying to be a friend to weighing up what our friends can do for us and which ones we want to see succeed. I didn't even notice this happen because most discussion occurs offscreen when I am sleeping and I am too lazy to wade through it. All my regrets.

I know that being an omake author is a great power and deep responsibility and I once employed it so that a CK2 thread went from 'maybe we can sacrifice a few people' to 'NO ONE DIES TODAY OR EVER RA RA FIGHT DA POWAH' so it is with a heavy heart that I say this.

Know that I will fight this. o_o

I SHALL BE WATCHING YOOOOOOU. O_O


and also writing omakes making it look like Han Jian is the best guy ever wait no, that's not how writing omakes work, that will make it sound like Gu Xiulan's secret Real Person fanfic folder. I will think of something dammit. Probably just end up writing that Li Suyin negaverse thing now that we've got ourselves a pretty sweet stopping point with the end of the Thunderdome.

Edit: Yeah, I probably can't go through with this threat, I'm not even sure how I would. BUT KNOW THAT I'D LIKE TO!
 
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Yeah, I know, I pointed this out... holy shit, nearly a hundred and eighty pages ago, but less than two weeks. We're averaging more than ten pages of discussion a day daaaaaang.





I was trying to point out that sheer ridiculousness of deciding whether or not to break ties with Han Jian as being part of our friendship calculus dictating whether or not to bring him and his buds to the vent, but oh my god it's for real. This is actually a thing. We have gone from just trying to be a friend to weighing up what our friends can do for us and which ones we want to see succeed. I didn't even notice this happen because most discussion occurs offscreen when I am sleeping and I am too lazy to wade through it. All my regrets.

I know that being an omake author is a great power and deep responsibility and I once employed it so that a CK2 thread went from 'maybe we can sacrifice a few people' to 'NO ONE DIES TODAY OR EVER RA RA FIGHT DA POWAH' so it is with a heavy heart that I say this.

Know that I will fight this. o_o

I SHALL BE WATCHING YOOOOOOU. O_O


and also writing omakes making it look like Han Jian is the best guy ever wait no, that's not how writing omakes work, that will make it sound like Gu Xiulan's secret Real Person fanfic folder. I will think of something dammit. Probably just end up writing that Li Suyin negaverse thing now that we've got ourselves a pretty sweet stopping point with the end of the Thunderdome.

Edit: Yeah, I probably can't go through with this threat, I'm not even sure how I would. BUT KNOW THAT I'D LIKE TO!

Vote Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal, which does exactly what you want, gives our friends a chance to work things out between them, and doesn't have us being a calculating dick.
 
I SHALL BE WATCHING YOOOOOOU. O_O
There's a lot of discussion on how the 'sharing' vote went. One of the reasons people jumped away from the leading plan temporarily was because the 'sharing' was actually 'We'll share, for a price.'. Personally, I'm not keen on ruining relations with Han Jian's group because we try force them to pay talismans, training and stones for access. It has since been edited out though.
 
There's a lot of discussion on how the 'sharing' vote went. One of the reasons people jumped away from the leading plan temporarily was because the 'sharing' was actually 'We'll share, for a price.'. Personally, I'm not keen on ruining relations with Han Jian's group because we try force them to pay talismans, training and stones for access. It has since been edited out though.

The whole 'share' has been edited out.
 
I do rather like the idea of suggesting we sell the Vent location to a few select parties like Han's group to foxgirl and piratehealer- we might offer it to groups like the local duchess heiress as well, just vetoing whoever we don't like, such as Sun Liling. A contract with alternating days or such might do better than suggesting everybody just share- I have no confidence we can make that work. As opposed to having US negotiate though, I suggest they have Bai Meizhen negotiate for them.

That would help cement Bai Meizhen's position as one of the big wheels, while likely giving her and them a buttload of resources to work with.
 
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As such, unless there is serious discontention among the people voting for my plan, I am removing the subclause.

Honestly, I think that we have to at least try to get his group access in the next week or two or it will be (rightly) seen as a betrayal when they find out it exists. It's already been said, but this is a massive help (especially for lower talent people) and we've been sitting on it for weeks.

Sun Liling, Bai Meizhen, Kang Zihao, Huang Da, and Ji Rong

I believe this was already mentioned, but I'm not sure how you forgot Cai Renxiang. Also, I'm not nearly as sure that Huang Da (and possibly Kang Zihao) will get spots as you are.
 
I do rather like the idea of suggesting we sell the Vent location to a few select parties like Han's group to foxgirl and piratehealer- we might offer it to groups like the local duchess heiress as well, just vetoing whoever we don't like. A contract with alternating days or such might do better than suggesting everybody just share- I have no confidence we can make that work. As opposed to having US negotiate though, I suggest they have Bai Meizhen negotiate for them.

Potential Trade:
- Access to / knowledge of future sites found; maybe healing (if Suyin advances in her Art)
- Meizhen's presence + negotiates for them with other groups (if they want to sell access to said location)
 
Honestly, I think that we have to at least try to get his group access in the next week or two or it will be (rightly) seen as a betrayal when they find out it exists. It's already been said, but this is a massive help (especially for lower talent people) and we've been sitting on it for weeks.



I believe this was already mentioned, but I'm not sure how you forgot Cai Renxiang. Also, I'm not nearly as sure that Huang Da (and possibly Kang Zihao) will get spots as you are.

Then vote for my plan that does that. It might be trailing, but we've had bigger upsets at this point, and it we don't do it this week it isn't happening. We have only so many weeks we can go heavy social, every action is costly. If we don't do it this week, we aren't doing it this month - next turn we're most likely going heavy cultivation, and ether next turn or the turn after we'll be starting missions. We need to send our mother money, and we'll be spending actions on Meizhen's favor.

We aren't going to pursue a delicate multi-turn approach. It costs to much. It happens now, or we start withdrawing because we shouldn't sink actions into a relationship that's going away soon.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Grigori on May 26, 2017 at 7:50 PM, finished with 9743 posts and 49 votes.

  • [X][stat] Dexterity
    [X] Plan As Swift as a Coursing River
    -[X] Resources used: Argent Elixir, Argent Accumulation pill, 3 red spirit stones, Bear Marrow Elixir, Gushing Spring pill
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] FVM
    [X] Plan As Swift as a Coursing River
    [X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
    [X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
    -[X] Resources: 3 Red Stones, Bear Marrow Elixir (Cost 4), Argent Accumulation (Cost 2), Argent Elixir (Cost 10)
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] FVM
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    [X] Plan Daughter of the Moon.
    -[X]Argent Elixir, 3 Red Stone, Bear Marrow Elixir, Gushing Spring Pill, Argent Accumulation Pill
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] FVM
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Visit the Archive
    --[X] Search for a technique
    ---[X] any combination of Head/Heart/Spine arts that are wind, darkness or water aligned.
    [X] Plan Daughter of the Moon.
    [X] Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal
    [X] Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal
    -[X] 3 Red Stones, Bear Marrow Elixir, Argent Elixir
    -[X] Go out with Xiulan in your downtime, perhaps she can help you do something with your hair
    --[X] Ask about inviting Bai Meizhen
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Ask Su Ling and Li Suyin prior, and if they agree discuss trading access to a high quality Spirit Stone and Argent Soul vent in exchange for resources/talismans/training and being cordial to those who found it. Make it clear we don't need a cut.
    --[X] Cultivate Forgotten Vale Melody
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    --[X] If Su Ling and Li Suyin okayed it, tell him they found a vent, and are up for making a deal to share it's use. If he's interested, arrange the meeting.
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] If the above went well, bring Su Ling and Li Suyin.
    --[X] Cultivate Crescent Sable Step
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
    [X][Stat] Stamina
    [X] Plan Clearing a Coursing River
    -[X] Resources used: Argent Accumulation pill, 3 red spirit stones, Gushing Spring pill
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    ---[X] Talk to Li Suyin and Su Ling about giving access to the Argent vent to Han Jian and Co, in exchange for spirit stones and training.
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] FVM
    [X]Plan Backlog and heading off issues
    [X] Dexterity
    [X] Plan Social
    -[X] Argent Elixir, 3 Red Stone, Bear Marrow Elixir, Argent Accumulation Pill
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
    [X] Plan Steady Cultivation and taking care off tired friends
    -[X] Resources: 3 Red Stones, Bear Marrow Elixir (Cost 4), Argent Accumulation (Cost 2), Argent Elixir (Cost 10)
    -[X] Go out with Xiulan in your downtime, perhaps she can help you do something with your hair
    --[X] Ask about inviting Bai Meizhen
    -[X] You are still worried about Suyin, perhaps the two of you could study formations together? It might get her mind off things
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Spiritual
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    [X]Plan Backlog and heading off issues
    -[X] Resources: 3 Red Stones, Argent Accumulation (Cost 2), Argent Elixir (Cost 10), Gushing Spring Pill (Cost 2)
    -[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] FVM
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    [X] Plan Clearing a Coursing River with Physical
    -[X] Resources used: Argent Accumulation pill, 3 red spirit stones, Gushing Spring pill
    -[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
    --[X] Argent Soul
    ---[X] Talk to Li Suyin and Su Ling about giving access to the Argent vent to Han Jian and Co, in exchange for spirit stones and training.
    -[X] Try to spend some time with Han Jian, couch it as wanting to ask him about spirit binding
    --[X] If the two agree to share the vent, bring that up instead. Have only Han Jian there so that you can get his support before telling the others. Focus on how they were the reason you found it.
    -[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
    -[X] Cultivate on your own
    --[X] Physical
    -[X] Look into sending some money to mother
    --[X] FVM
 
We were thinking of leaving Han Jian??? Is this why we're not sharing the vent with him? We're scared he'll become competition?????

Han Jian is competition, as is everyone else. Several of them are also friends. The fact that only 8 slots are open for those without non-combat talents in the inner sect is a really big deal for anyone seriously trying to advance. Pushing all our contacts through the competition.Like, let's say we want Suyin, Meizhen, ourself, Han Jian's faction and Ling to join the inner sect. Presuming healing doesn't count for the other competition (it may) that's already monopolizing every single available slot for our allies.

This isn't realistic. Trying to help people and be a good friend doesn't mean relying on blind optimism to magically make everything work out. We can and will be competing with our friends for something everyone involved desperately wants. At minimum, I doubt we can keep either Cai or Liling from joining the inner sect. That means, at minimum, 1-2 of the people we've worked with is not joining the inner sect. This number is likely higher. The ones most likely to suffer if we start throwing everything to everyone are Suyin and Ling, particularly if we do it without building ties between them and Han Jian's faction first.

This is especially the case since A: Han Jian isn't really that close a friend compared to Suyin, Meizhen and Xuilin and B: He's already getting weird, either through pure envy or by simply being able to do math. Yes, we should stay his friend, but we should not close our eyes and pretend that the rather serious pressure to make everyone compete with everyone else is a myth. He's a nice person and a good ally, and we should continue to work with him and help him, but the vent isn't rally ours as a resource, and upsetting the balance there potentially costs the friends that helped us find it safe access and use.

Now, the reasons for not sharing the vent with Han Jian have nothing to do this with this (It's just rather awkward, and costs our other friends out from one of a relatively small number of advantages they, who are much worse off, have in the sect, while also helping several people we actively dislike who actively dislike us) and we can, and should, try to maintain relationships and not go all murderous on each other. Giving Bai the vent is good because it helped the safety of those who worked together to get it. Approaching them with the idea of pushing them into sharing one of the few resources they have with a group that's been pretty nasty to them in the past, or selling it around and taking the profits, is not being a good friend. Pushing our friends to give up an advantage for no real gain with no intent on repaying them for it, to avoid losing another relationship because we've kind of been neglecting it, is not being a good friend.

Suyin, in particular, is quite dependent on us for advancement, and is something of a pushover. She will likely accept even if she doesn't really want to. Huang Da may keep the peace of not sharing it with everyone if he notices, and he very well may, that we're passing it around. Han Jian's friends are assholes by and large.

Now, we can't feasibly sell the vent and continue to use it reliably. If we trade it away, we're going to have to tell people that we know where it is before they buy it. We will be watched, and followed, by most everyone, and I'm not sure we can hide well enough to avoid notice consistently for a longer period of time, given the relative attraction of the location. Likewise, anyone we sell it to can turn around and resell it (And Huang Da has every incentive to do the same the second we start talking about the vent to anyone, who he might run into purely by accident). This means that, especially as the vent is a great place to ambush someone, it stops being a safe training place for anyone.
 
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[X] Plan Backlog, Cultivation, & Helping
-[X] Resources: 3 Red Stones, Bear Marrow Elixir (Cost 4), Argent Accumulation (Cost 2), Argent Elixir (Cost 10)
-[X] Try to puzzle out the tokens left from the test
-[X] Look into sending some money to mother
-[X] Help Suyin train and cultivate at the vent
--[X] Argent Soul
-[X] Train with Han Jian and his group
--[X] FVM
-[X] Cultivate on your own
--[X] Physical
-[X] Discuss with Meizhen what you can help her with
 
Vote Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal, which does exactly what you want, gives our friends a chance to work things out between them, and doesn't have us being a calculating dick.

I have no desire whatsoever to vote for adding Bai Meizhen to the hair vote because honestly that sounds like a disaster.

[X] Plan A Cultivator is a Social Animal

but I guess i'll vote for it for now anyway
 
I do rather like the idea of suggesting we sell the Vent location to a few select parties like Han's group to foxgirl and piratehealer- we might offer it to groups like the local duchess heiress as well, just vetoing whoever we don't like, such as Sun Liling. A contract with alternating days or such might do better than suggesting everybody just share- I have no confidence we can make that work. As opposed to having US negotiate though, I suggest they have Bai Meizhen negotiate for them.

That would help cement Bai Meizhen's position as one of the big wheels, while likely giving her and them a buttload of resources to work with.
I'd like to do that, but not with Han Jian.
Only 16 people graduate, and many of those 16 slots are already claimed by people like Cai or by older disciples.

This is a zero-sum game. Any advantage we give to one group of friends hurts our other group of friends by reducing their graduation chances, and vise versa. Every single person here is in a competition. Bai was always going to be one of the 16, so sharing the vent with her isn't a big deal, but suddenly adding Han and all his friends? Giving all of them this massive power-boost, making all of them competitors?
See, there are 16 inner sect ones per year, and you usually have up to two years to get your ticket, as you usually stall by then.

Li Suyin can probably use the Production slots to enter, it's not only production after all, but "non martial pursuits". She grinds her healing enough, she is in. Healers are serious business from what we've seen.

But we must also accept the fact that not all our friends are cut out for being Inner Sect disciples. At least, not in their first year. Such as Su Ling. She might make it, or she might just become a wildly successful Outer Sect for two years, milking everything she can from the Sect, try it again at the end of Y2 and go on happy.

Then vote for my plan that does that. It might be trailing, but we've had bigger upsets at this point, and it we don't do it this week it isn't happening. We have only so many weeks we can go heavy social, every action is costly. If we don't do it this week, we aren't doing it this month - next turn we're most likely going heavy cultivation, and ether next turn or the turn after we'll be starting missions. We need to send our mother money, and we'll be spending actions on Meizhen's favor.

We aren't going to pursue a delicate multi-turn approach. It costs to much. It happens now, or we start withdrawing because we shouldn't sink actions into a relationship that's going away soon.
I don't like the "we don't need a cut". Bill everyone else, but this "hey, I'd like to bring some friends over, they can pay you if you want" just doesn't sound good to me.

Will probably insult the girls, too.

Besides, Backlog is trailing closely behind, and that one torpedoes the relationship with Han Jian, and Moon ain't all that far if there are many defections.
 
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