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Hot co co said:
I think all the covariant sheilds people should probably start doing approval voting otherwise type 1 is gonna win and well that dose not seem to be a very good idea when the type one is apparently not gonna do so well against superior klingon weapons. If anything I am even more scared because we designed a dreadnought that impressed the klingons and they may be holding all there designs up to a s rank ship, speaking of which I wanna build another dreadnought / frigate like the skat, that was fun..
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That is a lot of presumption about the D7's capabilities. Yes they have superior weapon/shield tech but they're half the size. I really think that we don't need a ship that goes for every tactical edge possible to beat them.
Mechanis said:
And in the face of the unknown, especially in Star Trek, I prefer being a bit over-prepared than the reverse.
It's Star Trek. There's things out there, and not all of them are friendly.
(and even the friendly ones might not be safe.)
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In the face of the unknown we should probably not depend on succeeding a roll we have a 33%(probably) chance of blowing and losing even more cost effectiveness.
LOLROFL said:
Depending on how the Klingons react to the whiplash of going from clowning on the Federation's ships to having to fight something that is at least as capable as their next generation battlecruisers they may decided to back off and come back in the 2260s like TOS or this spooks them enough that the 2260's justification of the Federation getting to dangerous ends up being their 2240's justification for war.
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I don't think that the Klingons will on encountering a significantly tougher fight than expected back down. It's hard for individual Klingon leaders to effectively back down because it makes them look weak or foolish. And there will be those who want the hard fight to prove themselves, or who perceive that if the Federation is a hard fight now, leaving it to expand further might make it pose a serious threat to the Klingon Empire.
 
Hot co co said:
I think all the covariant sheilds people should probably start doing approval voting otherwise type 1 is gonna win and well that dose not seem to be a very good idea when the type one is apparently not gonna do so well against superior klingon weapons. If anything I am even more scared because we designed a dreadnought that impressed the klingons and they may be holding all there designs up to a s rank ship, speaking of which I wanna build another dreadnought / frigate like the skat, that was fun..
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But standard covariants have the same protection as type-1 heavy?

It's not like we're just guessing here, they're literally the same.
 
Hot co co said:
I think all the covariant sheilds people should probably start doing approval voting otherwise type 1 is gonna win and well that dose not seem to be a very good idea when the type one is apparently not gonna do so well against superior klingon weapons.
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Heavy Type-1 has the exact same defensive stats as the Standard Covariant that you're voting for.

Mechanis said:
It's also the best way to handle it when you have times where you want "anything but this one"

Also just, we are in an information vacuum here. the only things we know about the D7 for certain is that they're better than the D6 and roflstomped all over our old fleet in the Four Year War scenario. that's it.

We can infer that they may have torpedoes and probably better shields in addition to the known warp 8 engine.
we can speculate that based on the performance of the class on screen (and Sayle's GM history) that they are not a tactically insurmountable problem.
we can worry about sore loser Romulans (*coughTalShiarcough cough*) suppling them with fancy toys to get back at us over the humiliating drubbing we gave the other major empire in the region.
We can fear temporal meddling to disrupt the timeline or to "correct" it.
We can imagine that there are potential unknown unknowns that Sayle is keeping in reserve.

but we can't know.

And in the face of the unknown, especially in Star Trek, I prefer being a bit over-prepared than the reverse.
It's Star Trek. There's things out there, and not all of them are friendly.
(and even the friendly ones might not be safe.)
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Skippy said:
I asked @Sayle if our D7 would be roided up compared to canon, and he jokingly but fairly clearly said no. Do we really need to get him to confirm again?

This is getting a bit silly. Ships within the Quest generally remain the same as their canon analogues unless we do something specifically to change them.
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Okay, @Sayle, apologies for tagging you, but apparently people cannot get a joke, so would you please officially nix this.
 
Strunkriidiisk said:
You've inspired me to try my own. I may not know how to use Mechworks, but I do have paint.net and Sayle's diagrams to cut apart.


Having stolen ahem, reused the front half of the Connie's engineering hull, a rapid-fire torpedo bay (or two, with the increased thickness) can be fit into the shortened neck; replacing the integrated nacelles with full-scale Type-3s in a linear arrangement allows for ample space in the wingtips for a larger array of impulse thrusters to counteract the greater mass; and having replaced the original torpedo bay allows for the inclusion of a more modern sickbay and leaves room in the bow for an additional compact module.
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honestly the main reason I didn't move the deflector for that was ease of machinery conversion: the saucer on the Otodus is literally just an entire Selatchii, only built with the new hull materials (and presumably like, computers and whatnot) only instead of nacelles you panel over the tips after sticking a phaser bank on top of what used to be the power run for the nacelle, instead of a warp core you have empty space and some power runs, and then you bolt the engineering hull to the back. it's designed to require as little modification to existing tooling as possible.
 
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
 
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]

Approval voting heavy.
 
DeltaV11.2 said:
That is a lot of presumption about the D7's capabilities. Yes they have superior weapon/shield tech but they're half the size. I really think that we don't need a ship that goes for every tactical edge possible to beat them.

In the face of the unknown we should probably not depend on succeeding a roll we have a 33%(probably) chance of blowing and losing even more cost effectiveness.

I don't think that the Klingons will on encountering a significantly tougher fight than expected back down. It's hard for individual Klingon leaders to effectively back down because it makes them look weak or foolish. And there will be those who want the hard fight to prove themselves, or who perceive that if the Federation is a hard fight now, leaving it to expand further might make it pose a serious threat to the Klingon Empire.
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It's less about Klingon high command backing down due to losses and more about all the people pushing to go to war with the Federation who are winning glory from border skirmishes against the Federation winding up dead when their ships which were comfortably 1v1ing any Federation ships running into something that wipes the floor with them.

The sort of humiliation from that leaves their supporters weakened enough for their political opponents to decide to take a shot at them and now you've got a bunch of inter-house conflicts keeping the Klingons as a whole distracted instead of gearing up for a war with the Federation.

Edit:
Of course the opposite scenario could happen where now the Klingons are shitting their pants at all their dead raiders and those losses serve as a rallying cry to crush a nascent threat before it becomes too power.
 
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[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]

I really don't like the idea of confining our main line combatant to a medium size shield grid just to get the shiny new covariant tech
sooner, standard is fine for now and leaves the door open for post war refits to better technology. This ship will get better with age as tech matures and refits are done.
 
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[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]

Mostly because for once I actually consider prototype rolls an unacceptable risk, otherwise I'd be voting for both this and standard covariant.
Heavy covariants are too expensive, everything else is too weak, and type-1 heavy is cheaper, less risky, and has a better upgrade path than standard covariant.
 
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[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
 
luckless21 said:
No refits for better shields and more expensive, how is it not worse?
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Because it opens up the covariant shield technology for the rest of Starfleet.
We already know we are behind.

This entire refit argument assumes that
1) We will refit this ship class, or want to.
2) That the power transmission systems for Type-1 and Type-1 Covariant are compatible or will be
3) That Type-2 shields wont already be available by the time we consider refitting this ship

None of which is something you assume in a new ship class with rapidly evolving technology.
 
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[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]

I'm really into tech advancement. But tech advancement alone just isn't good enough to justify paying such a premium for, not when we need as many of these ships built as we can manage. The Standard Covariant is paying an entire ship's worth only for tech advancement, and makes any potential future shield refit worse to boot. Better to either get the most cost effective option, or the most powerful option. Not the option that is neither cost-effective nor gives us more Shield score.
 
Mechanis said:
honestly the main reason I didn't move the deflector for that was ease of machinery conversion: the saucer on the Otodus is literally just an entire Selatchii, only built with the new hull materials (and presumably like, computers and whatnot) only instead of nacelles you panel over the tips after sticking a phaser bank on top of what used to be the power run for the nacelle, instead of a warp core you have empty space and some power runs, and then you bolt the engineering hull to the back. it's designed to require as little modification to existing tooling as possible.
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Oh for sure yours is probably more plausible. I do like the sort of hot-rodded look mine came out with though.


 
uju32 said:
Because it opens up the covariant shield technology for the rest of Starfleet.
We already know we are

This entire refit argument assumes that
1) We will refit this ship class, or want to.
2) That the power transmission systems for Type-1 and Type-1 Covariant are compatible or will be
3) That Type-2 shields wont already be available by the time we consider refitting this ship

None of which is something you assume in a new ship class with rapidly evolving technology.
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What rapidly evolving technology?

This mounts a ton of our latest tech, and it's pretty explicitly able to mount either type of shield. There's no reason to expect that we'll have Type-2's ready if this is being refit and given that it has the glaringly obvious upgrade path for the torpedoes, I don't see why we wouldn't.
 
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
 
uju32 said:
Because it opens up the covariant shield technology for the rest of Starfleet.
We already know we are

This entire refit argument assumes that
1) We will refit this ship class, or want to.
2) That the power transmission systems for Type-1 and Type-1 Covariant are compatible or will be
3) That Type-2 shields wont already be available by the time we consider refitting this ship

None of which is something you assume in a new ship class with rapidly evolving technology.
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I've already outlined why I think that Starfleet will not choose to embark on a major refit program of the legacy fleet. It's relatively expensive especially on the big ships. These ships are still going to struggle against a D7, and they'll still be slow, and the price/benefit really doesn't work out against just building more Constitutions. The Newton is the best tactical ship in Starfleet- is it worth 15 cost to give it the 30% extra shield power? Sure, you could do six for the price of a Constitution, but the Constitution has twice the firepower and durability. You're paying 15 cost for 7 extra shield power, while a Constitution pays 18 for its 36 shield power.

I'd bet that one Constitution and six pre-refit Newtons will beat six refitted Newtons.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Oct 23, 2024 at 7:56 PM, finished with 396 posts and 101 votes.
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