Spike Cannons still shoot fast, at this scale, probably faster than a Suncannon, which is why I used them.
The three leading plans for a Caravel are basically the same IMO.
Same heavy weapon, same engines and same defences.

One has Plasma point defence system, and the other has a Spike macrocannon instead of the Plasma batteries. I'm fine with any of them winning.
 
A reminder that Aethersails are particularly vulnerable to being disabled compared to plasma thrusters and a Holo field & grav shield defense is still susceptible to aoe damage. Plan Caravel Dark Javelin is significantly more resistant to being mobility killed than the plans ahead of it at the cost of a single weapon fewer. it still serves well as a Torpedo Boat and long range fire support that the leading plans are also aiming for.
 
Spike Cannons still shoot fast, at this scale, probably faster than a Suncannon, which is why I used them.
I don't think there is anything that indicates that Spike Cannons shoot faster though as I see nothing in their description that indicates that they have an above average fire rate as a vehicle scale weapon.
Even larger versions of the Spike weapons derived from advanced fatecaster weapons, Spike Cannons fire increasingly large spikes of Wraithbone that can penetrate surprisingly deep into most armor. These weapons range from relatively small heavy weapons to massive macro-batteries found on starships.
More importantly, Suncannons should be more lethal per shot and have superior range given those were the things we focused on when designing them:
Suncannons are largely conventional plasma weapons with notable power and range compared to most other weapons of equivalent size and type. They are also extremely elegantly designed, such that their cost of manufacture is easily half that of the more clumsy designs of other races.
Lethality per shot is very important for PD, arguably more so than rate of fire since you are on a much tighter time limit to down every target.

In addition Suncannons only cost marginally more (30EP vs 25EP) and are notable for being half the cost of what they should be given their performance.
 
[X] Cepheid-class Light Cruiser


[X] War Carrack High Impact Refit
-[X] Chassis: Carrak (+8 Systems, +6 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons),
-[X] 1 weapon slot traded for 1 system slot.
-[X] Weapons: 3x Fatetwister Cannon weapons batteries, 5x Macro-Suncannons, 1x Heavy Starlance (1 heavy weapon slot mounts three Suncannons)
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersails, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Fatesheer Cannon Close-In Weapons Battery, Holofield

Strength three Fatetwister weapons battery with all their hax rules, strength 10 macro-suncannon battery, strength 1 Heavy Starlance Battery. (but with the improved crits, one is all you need!)
 
A reminder that Aethersails are particularly vulnerable to being disabled compared to plasma thrusters and a Holo field & grav shield defense is still susceptible to aoe damage. Plan Caravel Dark Javelin is significantly more resistant to being mobility killed than the plans ahead of it at the cost of a single weapon fewer. it still serves well as a Torpedo Boat and long range fire support that the leading plans are also aiming for.
i like it, but i worry about only having torpedoes as a secondary weapon.

It's probably nothing but it has me second guessing anyway.

I feel very vau-vulkesh. Will it work well?
 
i like it, but i worry about only having torpedoes as a secondary weapon.

It's probably nothing but it has me second guessing anyway.

I feel very vau-vulkesh. Will it work well?
It works if they have brawler escort screen or are a support to a larger general purpose fleet. As long as we have allies fleets with us it works fine, and I hope we'll build up our own gp fleet in the next few centuries.
 
i like it, but i worry about only having torpedoes as a secondary weapon.

It's probably nothing but it has me second guessing anyway.

I feel very vau-vulkesh. Will it work well?
yes. it's meant for area denial and firing at the ships it's using area denial to keep at range, softening them up for more powerful vessels or it's escorts by blowing holes in their armor and possibly disabling guns or engines. escorts we'll always be deploying alongside them will will make up for for it's lack of other options.

it's a specialized vessel designed for complementary roles as part of a larger strategy rather than the simple las boat it was before. I'm just protecting mine a bit further from being mobility killed than most plans.
[ ] Meros: Recall For Repairs (Write-in)
Recall damaged ships for repair.
At present 12 of the Lance Cutters in the fleet are damaged, 8 of which suffer from impaired mobility, similarly 9 of the Lance Sloops are damaged with one mission kill and four with impaired mobility. Ten Ketches have also suffered minor damages, with three suffering from impaired mobility, and two Caravels have similarly suffered from losing a sail.
as we see here, impaired mobility was fairly common among the warships damaged during turn 3, and our caravels specifically suffered from losing sails. that being the case, a redundant plasma thruster which is far more resistant to being disabled is worthwhile.
 
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as we see here, impaired mobility was fairly common among the warships damaged during turn 3, and our caravels specifically suffered from losing sails. that being the case, a redundant plasma thruster which is far more resistant to being disabled is worthwhile.
It should be note though that the ships belonging to us that were damaged lacked defences outside of PDs.
 
It should be note though that the ships belonging to us that were damaged lacked defences outside of PDs.
yes, but Aethersails are particularly easily damaged and our defenses don''t cover everything. I personally think some redundancy is worth more than a single Suncannon and have made a plan to reflect that. whether they agree with me or not is up to the voters, but we are going to be fielding a smaller navy than our adversaries in most situations. slather generously is our strategy with the army, I don't see why we wouldn't do the same with the navy.
 
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[X] War Carrack, No extra exotics
-[X] Chassis: Carrack (8 Systems, 6 Weapons Batteries, 2 Heavy Weapons Batteries)
-[X] Convert 2 Weapons Batteries and 1 Heavy Weapons Battery to System Slots (+4 Systems)
-[X] Weapons: 1x Heavy Starlance, 3x Fatetwister Cannon Batteries, 1x Macro-Suncannons
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersail, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Fatesheer Close In Weapons Battery, 1x Holofield, 1x Grav-Shield

[X] Saccharum class Light Cruiser (Caravel 8 System | 4 Weapon Batteries | 1 Heavy Weapon Battery)
-[X] 1x Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance -1 Heavy Weapon Slot
-[X] 2x Macro-Suncannon Weapon Batteries - 2 Weapon Slots
-[X] 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher - 1 Weapon Slot
-[X] Trade 1x Weapon Slot for 1x System Slot
-[X] 1x Suncannon PD -1 System Slot
-[X] 3x Æthersail - 3 System slots
-[X] 1x Holo-Field - 2 System Slots
-[X] 1x Grav-Shield - 3 System Slots
 
[X] War Carrack, No extra exotics
-[X] Chassis: Carrack (8 Systems, 6 Weapons Batteries, 2 Heavy Weapons Batteries)
-[X] Convert 2 Weapons Batteries and 1 Heavy Weapons Battery to System Slots (+4 Systems)
-[X] Weapons: 1x Heavy Starlance, 3x Fatetwister Cannon Batteries, 1x Macro-Suncannons
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersail, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Fatesheer Close In Weapons Battery, 1x Holofield, 1x Grav-Shield

[X] Cepheid-class Light Cruiser
-[X] Chassis: Caravel (+8 Systems, +4 Weapons, +1 Heavy Weapons)
-[X] Convert 1x Weapons to Systems
-[X] Weapons: 2x Naval Suncannon Batteries, 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher Battery, 1x Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersails, 1x Point Defense Battery (Spike Cannons), Holofield, Grav-Shield
 
[X] War Carrack, No extra exotics
-[X] Chassis: Carrack (8 Systems, 6 Weapons Batteries, 2 Heavy Weapons Batteries)
-[X] Convert 2 Weapons Batteries and 1 Heavy Weapons Battery to System Slots (+4 Systems)
-[X] Weapons: 1x Heavy Starlance, 3x Fatetwister Cannon Batteries, 1x Macro-Suncannons
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersail, 1x Plasma Drive, 1x Fatesheer Close In Weapons Battery, 1x Holofield, 1x Grav-Shield

[X] Cepheid-class Light Cruiser
-[X] Chassis: Caravel (+8 Systems, +4 Weapons, +1 Heavy Weapons)
-[X] Convert 1x Weapons to Systems
-[X] Weapons: 2x Naval Suncannon Batteries, 1x Heavy Torpedo Launcher Battery, 1x Heavy Graviton Thruster Lance
-[X] Systems: 3x Aethersails, 1x Point Defense Battery (Spike Cannons), Holofield, Grav-Shield
 
Not investing in more hangars with our Carracks is a mistake.

If you look at the fleets of our allies the ones where we have seen their whole fleet (Quilan has battleships but we haven't seen them yet) all have significantly more hangars than we do.

Just one of Zahr-Tann's Heavy fleets has more non Assault Shuttle strikecraft than the sum total of strikecraft fielded by our entire navy (528 vs 288), ditto for the portion of Arach-Qin's fleet (you can find the initial fleet list on the last Turn 1 update) that is was being repaired in our shipyards (80 hangars vs our 16).

While so far none of Quilan's ships have any hangars we are supposed to be receiving their battleships among the final 2 parts of their navy for refitting soon and those or some other unseen ship class may have lots of hangars.

All their ships also have a crap load of hull reinforcement and an emphasis on Plasma Thrusters for propulsion which should make their ships far less susceptible to strikecraft attacks.
 
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Just because our allies are doing it doesn't mean we have to do it. I'd rather double down on our strengths if I can.
 
Not investing in more hangars with our Carracks is a mistake.

If you look at the fleets of our allies the ones where we have seen their whole fleet (Quilan has battleships but we haven't seen them yet) all have significantly more hangars than we do.

Just one of Zahr-Tann's Heavy fleets has more non Assault Shuttle strikecraft than the sum total of strikecraft fielded by our entire navy (528 vs 288), ditto for the portion of Arach-Qin's fleet (you can find the initial fleet list on the last Turn 1 update) that is was being repaired in our shipyards (80 hangars vs our 16).

While so far none of Quilan's ships have any hangars we are supposed to be receiving their battleships among the final 2 parts of their navy for refitting soon and those or some other unseen ship class may have lots of hangars.

All their ships also have a crap load of hull reinforcement and an emphasis on Plasma Thrusters for propulsion which should make their ships far less susceptible to strikecraft attacks.
We don't have any good modern fighters, and if we want to do a fleet carrier, we can do it on the Clipper hull. Our Carraks are terrible ships to turn into carriers because of their heavy gun focus, if we want carriers the Caravel is a superior hull because it's lighter and cheaper. Even a Clipper needs to strip away it's heavy guns in order to fit a complete protection suite and flight decks on.

[ ] Phantom Racer class Carrier
-[ ] Chassis: Clipper (+12 Systems, +4 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] 2 heavy weapon slots traded for 4 system slots.
-[ ] Weapons: 4x Spike Macrocannons
-[ ] Systems: 2x Aethersails, 1 plasma thruster, 4x Hangers, 1 Transport Bay (Large) 1x Spike Cannon Point Defense Battery, Holofield, Gravity Shield

ETA: If our ships were truly so vulnerable to strike craft, one would think that ork fighta-bombas would have reaped a terrible toll on our fleets as they are all able to shred an aethersail in a single pass, forcing the crew to strike their sails and stripped of maneuverability, be turned into swiss cheese by the ork Kroozers. While a fighter might be a threat, I think that in fact, our eldar ships are able to answer said threat, either by helm (turn away and run away from approaching fighters, most eldar ships can outrun them comfortably), by PD and CIWS, by holofield (where equipped) or by simply flying in fleets with allied fighters. Oh, and by blowing up enemy ships before they ever launch fighter patrols.
 
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[ ] Phantom Racer class Carrier
-[ ] Chassis: Clipper (+12 Systems, +4 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] 2 heavy weapon slots traded for 4 system slots.
-[ ] Weapons: 4x Spike Macrocannons
-[ ] Systems: 2x Aethersails, 1 plasma thruster, 4x Hangers, 1 Transport Bay (Large) 1x Spike Cannon Point Defense Battery, Holofield, Gravity Shield
All that for four hanger-bays. Six if we don't make it a transport at the same time, which is more respectable.

Yeah, I'm really tempted to make our first properly militarized hull an escort design; the extra system slots the holo-field and grav shield take up do a lot to counteract the extra squadron per hanger, and it would be really low commitment to alter the weight any given warfleet is committing to fighters that we may or may not want against any given enemy.

On the other hand we didn't get the option to mount transport bays on our escort designs, a dedicated carrier and a dedicated troop transport could pretty easily share a chassis, which would save us a militarization, and it seems like a light cruiser hull is still pretty cheap - the Battle Caravel is actually faster to build than either Ketch variant.
 
We don't have any good modern fighters, and if we want to do a fleet carrier, we can do it on the Clipper hull. Our Carraks are terrible ships to turn into carriers because of their heavy gun focus, if we want carriers the Caravel is a superior hull because it's lighter and cheaper. Even a Clipper needs to strip away it's heavy guns in order to fit a complete protection suite and flight decks on.

[ ] Phantom Racer class Carrier
-[ ] Chassis: Clipper (+12 Systems, +4 Weapons, +2 Heavy Weapons)
-[ ] 2 heavy weapon slots traded for 4 system slots.
-[ ] Weapons: 4x Spike Macrocannons
-[ ] Systems: 2x Aethersails, 1 plasma thruster, 4x Hangers, 1 Transport Bay (Large) 1x Spike Cannon Point Defense Battery, Holofield, Gravity Shield
I think LOLROFL wants the carriers in the current refit because it will probably be a long time until we build new ships, rather than refitting our glass cannon ships.

Unless we find a way to semi automate our shipyards to reduce AP expenditure.
 
I think LOLROFL wants the carriers in the current refit because it will probably be a long time until we build new ships, rather than refitting our glass cannon ships.

Unless we find a way to semi automate our shipyards to reduce AP expenditure.
I mean, if we want to build new ships, we can probably lay down escort carriers in job lots. Something that costs as much as the War Ketch would be 3 BAP to lay down 4, so we could lay down 20 in a single turn to add 80 squadrons to the fleet.
 
We haven't even designed a replacement fighter yet, or put down foundries. It's probably going to be a few turns before we get through that, since we're about to open up one hell of a Warrior AP sink in the form of officer production.

I'm not seeing a huge rush to start pumping out carriers when we don't have the fighters to stick in them.
 
Designing 2 vehicles costs 1 WAP and comes with the benefit of freeing up Starcrystals that are stuck in our Bright Eagles which can then be used for other projects.
[ ] Commission Vehicle(s) (1 AP Each, max 3*)
Begin work on designing vehicles for your armies.
Design up to two vehicles.
Just because our allies are doing it doesn't mean we have to do it. I'd rather double down on our strengths if I can.
This isn't something that only our allies are doing.

Strikecraft are something that every race in 40k uses in great numbers because while they cannot replace naval weapons they provide a huge deal of utility thanks to their range and their ability to operate independently of starships not to mention the fact that they bypass the vast majority of active protection methods.

Every race has several ships classes with hangars and most usually have multiple across different ship classes.

Even the Imperium which is usually portrayed as being a big gun oriented faction has a crap load of ships that have hangars with a few being dedicated carriers.
While Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 probably isn't a completely accurate depiction of 40k space combat one thing that likely remains consistent is that strikecraft are most commonly your longest ranged striking arm and are hands down the best way to handle enemy strikecraft and ordinance.

Neglecting to counter either of those is going to result in our range advantage evaporating especially as one of the nearby Major Ork worlds is known for their pilots.
Red Sunz said:
Danger Rating: High
An unusual red dwarf binary system, Red Sunz is notable mainly for its especially hardy population of orks living in various asteroid colonies and free-floating jumbles that could charitably be called space stations. Waaagh Grimtusk recruits the majority of its 'Ardboyz and Flyboyz from those living in this system, with the former often going on to become exceptionally dangerous Nobz.
Given Grimtusk has shown himself to be a very competent Ork I doubt he isn't going to exploit the fact that our strikecraft forces are very sparse and I would rather we not be reliant on our allies for this since Fatesever armed strikecraft should be such a huge force multiplier against enemy strikecraft since you would just need to hold down the trigger while being able to focus solely on avoiding attacks instead of needing to balance pulling off attack runs with avoiding attacks.

This isn't about not doubling down on our strengths, it's not letting one of our limbs atrophy into nothing.
 
For strike craft we will want a ship with a lot of system slots, and strike craft. We should design a strike craft and then a foundry to start pumping them out, and then while that cooks, then we will want to design a ship with strikecraft capability.

I dont disagree, I also believe that its going to be very important for us.

But we arent yet ready to actually deploy strike craft.
 
We don't really need huge swarms of strikecraft since their main role in our fleet is blunting the enemies ability to use their strikecraft and ordinance (which can outrange our naval weapons) to hit us rather than being a major striking arm capable of both defeating enemy strikecraft and still retaining enough numbers to hurt starships.

As such we just need them to be a common fixture in our fleet, not a numerous one. That is why I am favoring something along the lines of the Imperium's approach where the majority of their strikecraft carriers also double as adaquate if not solid warships (ie. something like the Emperor class battleship or Mars class battlecruiser) since the bulk of our navies killing power comes from our ships weapons and will likely remain that way.

Even just refitting all our Carracks with a single hangar would more than quadruple our current strikecraft capacity from 48 squadrons over 16 hangars to 210 squadrons over 70 hangars.

Having more ships capable of fielding strikecraft will also greatly benefit the unrefitted ships which still make up the vast majority of our fleet since they offer greater coverage against enemy strikecraft which will be particularly effective at pull off mobility kills against our Holo-Fieldless ships.

As I have pointed out earlier Fatesever cannons should be a huge force multiplier since that allows our pilots to focus solely on evading enemy fire while only needing to hold down the trigger whenever there are enemy strikecraft in range rather than needing to balance lining up shots with avoiding enemy fire.

Any future strikecraft we design will likely be a decent bit cheaper than the Bright Eagle too since Starlances are extremely expensive compared to our other weapons at 100EP apiece.

Dropping the 2 Starlances cuts 200EP from the 469EP Bright Eagle and gives us a pretty big budget to work with. Considering the fact that Fatesevers are only 60EP apiece (cheaper than some Grav-Weapons) even getting two of them still leaves 80EP for other things like the 3rd vehicle weapon and active defenses.
 
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You really are putting a lot of emphasis on BFGA2 in your analysis, but let me bring in some understanding of my own from the tabletop game. First of all, the Imperium is not a gunline fleet, it's the single largest fleet int he game and it has ships to support lots of different play styles. Want to load up on cobras and spam torpedoes across the board? Sure, you can do that. Lanceboats? They've got em. Ramming? Giant prows say go for it! The Eldar get 13 ships across all of the original BFG ruleset. 5 escorts, 7 cruisers, 1 battleship. 5 of those ships, all capitals, have launch bays, and two of them are specialist fleet flagships, while two others have them as an optional weapon vs the eldar's also excellent torpedoes. Only the Ecclipse class is called out as a specialist carrier design, and it's fluff is telling.
The Eclipse is perhaps one of the most effective attack craft carriers in the Gothic sector. While
most carrier-type vessels must maintain considerable distance from the enemy, thus increasing
the amount of time fighters and bombers spend approaching their target, the Eclipse can deploy
its Darkstar fighters and Eagle bombers within striking distance and then use its great speed
and agility to withdraw from the firing line.

Rather than generalists, most of the Eldar fleet are specialists. Aurora cruisers are all torpedoes and lances, Solaris cruisers are all weapons batteries, and the Eclipse class are specialists in running up in your aft, dropping it's entire flight wing behind you, and then vanishing back into the mists while it's fighters and bombers claw your face off, maybe throwing in the occasional lance if it's funny. Eldar also have a 2+ against all ordinance, so fighters cannot pen holofields. I mean, I guess they can but the game doesn't offer better defenses than that. All the canon eldar ships have no PD at all, because Holofields are just that good. In that spirit, one or two random hangers squeezed into ships that are already badly hurting for their system slots is out of the question. You can't fit a a hanger, 3 aetthersails, 1 plasma drive, 1 PD, holofields and both shields on a Clipper without compromising

You know what's the real weapon against strikecraft? The Helm. Eldar ships can move up to 50-60 cm per turn in BFG, but ork fighta-bombas and torpedo-bombas are only capable of 25 and 20 cm of movement respectively. If there's a big strikecraft squadron coming at you, turn away and run. If the eldar don't want to take a fight, they don't have to.

You'd have us instead put out nearly 1000 new fighters to add to our fleet. Even if these are stripped down bare-bones nothing-fighters that cost only 200 EP each, we're still talking about 194,400 EP of construction here, or 19 turns of 'the forge does nothing but build fighters with both actions every turn.'
 
Even just refitting all our Carracks with a single hangar would more than quadruple our current strikecraft count from 48 squadrons over 16 hangars to 210 squadrons over 70 hangars.
*Capacity. It wouldn't more than quadruple our current strikecraft count, it would more than quadruple our current strikecraft capacity.
The purpose of these refits is to be a quick and relatively inexpensive standin while we get an actual functional military up and running. Getting ships equipped with a bunch of empty hangers we need to fill takes our refit cost of 1 AP and (hopefully) 1 turn per ship and adds 3 AP and 1+ turn* just for a single foundry, which is rather more likely to be giving us a few strike craft per turn than to be giving us a ship-full every turn so we'll be looking at having to get multiple of them just to keep pace with refits. And given we still don't have a proper military chassis or design for our strike craft (or even a design for our updated civilian-derived chassis), that huge extra investment will either:
a) have to wait even longer (thus defeating the entire point of these refits),
b) be put into stopgap craft we'll need to replace anyway, and unlike ships replacing them will probably be a full decomission and loss of investment rather than just backline deployment,
or c), probably the most likely option, just get stuck in can't-get-AP-allocation-votes indefinitely-postponed development hell until we get new stuff anyway and the point becomes moot.
I want us to get strikecraft and carriers too, enough that I made them a key part of my vote proposal for this turn, but this idea isn't going to work for what these refits are supposed to be. Quadrupling or more the cost of our good-enough-for-now temporary solution is just not viable.

*Remember,
As scaling up to 'mass production' can result in quite a variable degree of difficulty, sometimes completely out of proportion to the on-paper complexity or cost of an item, you will never quite know how long it will take, or if additional actions will be needed, before actually building one. Once you do, however, this information will become available in the list below.
so that's 1 turn per foundry at minimum and could be more.

TL;DR:
We've been told that the entire point of using Foundries instead of BAP is to take stuff you're going to want a lot of in the long term, but aren't in desperate need of right now, and getting it far cheaper over a longer period of time.
The entire point of our current refits is that we need to get forces available quickly, and we're willing to cut corners and get stuff we won't want more of in the long-term to get it now.
Making the latter dependent on the former is just... missing the point, to a comedic degree.
 
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