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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Mopman43 said:
I believe Anton's starting total Diplomacy was 4.

(His 'Divided Loyalty' at start was intended to be his incompetence at his job)

His inexplicable success over the years has given him several boosts.
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I think he was meant to be the kind "puppy dog" Nepo baby that Abelhelm had to begrudgingly keep around as a sop to the local nobility.

But then he started being actually good at his job. Somehow
 
Mopman43 said:
I believe Anton's starting total Diplomacy was 4.

(His 'Divided Loyalty' at start was intended to be his incompetence at his job)

His inexplicable success over the years has given him several boosts.
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Asides from actually knowing he rolls high, and asides from an early WoB that his starting Diplomacy was 4, I'm pretty sure we've only ever seen Anton's actual modifier once in-game, when he was like "oh wow is that a gun, that's pretty cool, I'm a bit of a fan of guns too" with Gotri:

Boney said:
Your second port of call is Prince Gotri, who is knowledgeable and radical enough that the possibility exists that he'll let slip some Dwarven secrets. You begin the conversation innocently enough by telling the Prince that Anton will be rounding up mercenaries for the upcoming attack on Karagril, and will therefore need a gyrocopter that can hold a passenger, and Anton steers the conversation through what you're almost certain is natural friendly interest into the topic of firearms. Anton's spent a fair bit of time learning the subject recently, but there's clear gaps in his knowledge and Prince Gotri seems to finds this offensive. He explains a few details, and then produces some schematics to go deeper into a few of the trickier parts, and by the time you flee the room to maintain plausible deniability Prince Gotri was disassembling a handgun under Anton's fascinated gaze.

[Anton vs Gotri: Diplomacy vs Intrigue, 91+12=103 vs 7+6=13]
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His raw score, at that time, was 12. At the time of Turn 21, Anton effectively had triple the raw Diplomacy score he started out with. That's before considering his Very Gregarious trait, which I would assume he didn't start out with. Not bad at all.

That was... eleven in-universe years ago. It's possible that Anton's diplomacy has increased a bit more since then. Or maybe it's stayed at that level - he hasn't really had much of a need to increase it further, given that he rules in Stirland, and hasn't been called on to perform another miracle in the time since.

Edit: As a sidenote... Gotri, my dude, it's a good thing you're part of a society that doesn't need Intrigue all that much.
 
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Mopman43 said:
Also would have probably activated Birdmuncha before we had the Eye of Gazul.

Anton just does not miss.
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Anton is what happens when you combine extreme competency and a lack of ambition. Somewhere entirely unexpected, there just happens to be a world-class talent who styles all over the competition...but only when events come to his quiet corner of the world.

I'll also note that the Besiegers ended up being perfect mercenaries for what we needed at K8P: excellent, disciplined tunnel fighters as good on offense as they are at defense, able to tank even Skaven gunfire while dishing out return fire and covering the dwarven advance. The guy rolled high even when he didn't know it.
 
Altom said:
Not quite. Orcs don't care about conquering. They want to fight and don't care about the land itself after anyone willing to fight them for that land is gone
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I'd say Orcs like conquering quite a bit, it's just once the Warboss dies the Waaagh splits up so they never get to the 'ruling what you conquered' bit.

But every Orc still dreams of leading a Waaagh to go conquer the Stunties and etc.

All Orcs believe themselves to be Temporarily Embarrassed Warbosses.
 
Honestly if we wanted to do any diplomacy with the Tomb Kings then the best route would be via those Nehekaran (or however it is spelt) coins that were in the vaults when we retook the Karak. The Tomb Kings are many things, but I think the one thing they would appreciate is if you are returning their treasure from where they deposited it all those years ago.

Although sometimes you just need to get really lucky and manage to move the heart of one with a sob story. Like that one guy who, in desperation, traveled there in search of a mirage cure for his sick wife. When he was captured and brought before the local tomb king he told the story and pleaded for the medicine. Which the Tomb King granted as he was moved by the man's pure love for his wife.

Actually, now that I think about it. If we developed an item that used illusions to allow a Tomb King to experience the sensation of eating food again, then I'd imagine that some would be interested in a trade. After all I'd imagine that such an item would be something the undead mummies would treasure as I don't believe they can taste food at the moment.
 
Sinsystems said:
Honestly if we wanted to do any diplomacy with the Tomb Kings then the best route would be via those Nehekaran (or however it is spelt) coins that were in the vaults when we retook the Karak. The Tomb Kings are many things, but I think the one thing they would appreciate is if you are returning their treasure from where they deposited it all those years ago.
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Problem- we already melted down most of them.
 
I forget, we voted to wait to present the Orbs of Sorcery until we finished the AV book too, right?

I'm almost kind of saddened by that, given how in-character and hilarious it would have been to present the physically-impossible new set of Orbs of Sorcery to the Patriarchs/Matriarchs of the Colleges, but without an explanation as to how we've done this impossible thing that only Teclis is known to be capable of (and for seven other Winds we can't even manipulate, making it beyond impossible if one doesn't know about AV) beyond the fact that a detailed explanation will be coming soon. Just to let them stew in the absurd, baffling, impossible mystery (giving them a taste of the Ulgu mindset) for a little while.

The insights we'll be able to drop will be mind-blowing. Stuff like "something is imposing reality upon the winds other than reality" and "the constants of the Winds are not constant early in their creation" and "if you can keep an Apparition alive, but trapped, and constantly bleeding, you can produce this wonder substance that is incredibly useful to even the dwarves" is going to inspire a lot of thinking and activity.

I could see achieving the "capture an Apparition, trap it, constantly bleed it, but sustain it enough to keep it alive" goal being a joint project between the Colleges and Runesmiths Guild, given the huge payoff and possibility that both their talents combined could make it far more feasible than either could alone. While our Mirrorsnake is sustained by being partially in the Aethyr, couldn't other apparitions be sustained by being fed more of the Winds they feed on?
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
I forget, we voted to wait to present the Orbs of Sorcery until we finished the AV book too, right?
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It wasn't so much that we voted for it so much as we had the option to present them early as a social action and we didn't take that.

SaltyWaffles said:
I'm almost kind of saddened by that, given how in-character and hilarious it would have been to present the physically-impossible new set of Orbs of Sorcery to the Patriarchs/Matriarchs of the Colleges, but without an explanation as to how we've done this impossible thing that only Teclis is known to be capable of (and for seven other Winds we can't even manipulate, making it beyond impossible if one doesn't know about AV) beyond the fact that a detailed explanation will be coming soon. Just to let them stew in the absurd, baffling, impossible mystery (giving them a taste of the Ulgu mindset) for a little while.

The insights we'll be able to drop will be mind-blowing. Stuff like "something is imposing reality upon the winds other than reality" and "the constants of the Winds are not constant early in their creation" and "if you can keep an Apparition alive, but trapped, and constantly bleeding, you can produce this wonder substance that is incredibly useful to even the dwarves" is going to inspire a lot of thinking and activity.
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Definitely.

SaltyWaffles said:
I could see achieving the "capture an Apparition, trap it, constantly bleed it, but sustain it enough to keep it alive" goal being a joint project between the Colleges and Runesmiths Guild, given the huge payoff and possibility that both their talents combined could make it far more feasible than either could alone. While our Mirrorsnake is sustained by being partially in the Aethyr, couldn't other apparitions be sustained by being fed more of the Winds they feed on?
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IIRC Boney said that the whole thing about Runesmiths using AV is technically a Runesmith secret, which is why it's okay for us not to credit Thorek in the book. So I don't imagine there'll be a joint project.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
I forget, we voted to wait to present the Orbs of Sorcery until we finished the AV book too, right?

I'm almost kind of saddened by that
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It was kind of inevitable when the presentation would take a social slot in a turn where it was competing with time-sensitive stuff in almost every slot like the Elf Olympics, the First Apprentice of K8P, Mandred's Dooming, Greta being harassed, etc. Add on top that the timing is contentious enough for a split vote even if it were a standalone poll, and it never really stood a chance.
 
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Parabola said:
IIRC Boney said that the whole thing about Runesmiths using AV is technically a Runesmith secret, which is why it's okay for us not to credit Thorek in the book. So I don't imagine there'll be a joint project.
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There could be, but it would be the colleges approaching the runesmiths about it while presumably the runesmiths furiously pretend they don't have a massive interest in it already.

As said, that approach would greatly benefit from there being a system in place for the colleges to ask the runesmiths for help on things.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
There could be, but it would be the colleges approaching the runesmiths about it while presumably the runesmiths furiously pretend they don't have a massive interest in it already.

As said, that approach would greatly benefit from there being a system in place for the colleges to ask the runesmiths for help on things.
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This presumes that the Colleges would ask the Runesmiths at all instead of trying to figure it out themselves. Dwarfs can't even see Apparitions. At best they'd help in creating stuff like Mirrorcatch Boxes or their equivalents for other Apparitions.

...And speaking of Apparitions, I just remembered something I wanted to ask. @Boney do the Asur Apparition books we now have cover the same ones that the Colleges are familiar with?

Or are they perhaps about different ones? Given that one theory regarding Apparitions is that they're spirits born from the fears of wizards, if it ended up being right (even partly), it stands to reason that a different culture (let alone a different kind of people) would have different fears and thus perhaps different beings that occasionally prey upon them.
 
mathymancer said:
Anton doesn't need a diplomacy trait for the same reason Mathilde doesn't need a counterspelling trait - no point in having numerical modifiers to your roll when you just crit naturally.
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Anton: "The best way to score diplomatic coups when you have a terrible diplomacy modifier is to simply roll very high every single time. That's what I do."

Trainee diplomat: "What do we do if we don't roll very high?"

Anton: "That's a terrible idea. Don't do that."
 
[X][LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Liminal Pathways, Nehekharan Pantheon, The Mortuary Cult, Nehekharan Incantations
[X][COLLEGE] An Ulgu powerstone (5 CF)
[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [PURCHASE] No purchase.
 
Parabola said:
This presumes that the Colleges would ask the Runesmiths at all instead of trying to figure it out themselves. Dwarfs can't even see Apparitions. At best they'd help in creating stuff like Mirrorcatch Boxes or their equivalents for other Apparitions.

...And speaking of Apparitions, I just remembered something I wanted to ask. @Boney do the Asur Apparition books we now have cover the same ones that the Colleges are familiar with?

Or are they perhaps about different ones? Given that one theory regarding Apparitions is that they're spirits born from the fears of wizards, if it ended up being right (even partly), it stands to reason that a different culture (let alone a different kind of people) would have different fears and thus perhaps different beings that occasionally prey upon them.
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Dwarves can see Apparitions, just like they can see Daemons. If Apparitions were invisible to those without Magesight they'd be nothing but Winds and impossible to bind to a soul.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Dwarves can see Apparitions, just like they can see Daemons. If Apparitions were invisible to those without Magesight they'd be nothing but Winds and impossible to bind to a soul.
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Do you have a citation backing that up? Tome of Corruption indicates that only those with witchsight can see apparitions on page 207, and Boney's said before that Apparitions are made entirely of warpstuff.
 
From the colleges' perspective there's also the part where they just don't have anything remotely like a full accounting of the capabilities of runesmithing, to be honest. Apparitions exist whether you can see them or not, and they're not all limited to going after wizards so it's far from inconceivable that the karaz ankor has relevant lore or techniques to bring to the table.

That's to say nothing of the golden age. You only need look as far as Bok to learn that they got up to doing runes with and about things that dwarves can't see back then. Remnants of that partnership relevant to the problem may still be around.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Dwarves can see Apparitions, just like they can see Daemons. If Apparitions were invisible to those without Magesight they'd be nothing but Winds and impossible to bind to a soul.
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(checks)
Well, yes and no.

The 2e corebook doesn't make mention of inherently needing magesight to see Apparitions, but of the four Apparitions it describes, the Dark Hounds are described as being invisible, the Handmaidens are described as only being visible to the victim, and the All-Knowing Serpent is explicitly hard to describe. Rotwyrms alone are not said to be hard to behold in any way.

Realms of Sorcery 2e also makes no mention of needing magesight to see them - and it only adds the Whispering Darkness as an example, which also isn't described as being hard to see beyond it manifesting as a broiling and oily fog that whispers.

But Tome of Corruption does basically say that they're only visible to wizards because in a sense they're reflections of the fears of wizards.

Witchsight
Witchsight (i.e. the Magical Sense Skill) is the ability of most spellcasters to sense the presence or absence of Magic. All people born with the talent to work magic have some degree of witchsight that can be developed and expanded with training so the spellcaster can actually see the ebb and flow of the Winds of Magic, witness the scintillating colours of the Chaos energy in its raw form, and be better able to harness it for the casting of spells. For more information on the development and function of witchsight, be sure to reference Realms of Sorcery page 46.

Chaos Made Flesh
Having the ability to sense magic enables Magisters and their ilk to better control the energies they wield. Aside from its utility, witchsight also reveals an abundance of odd manifestations, eerie phenomena, and sometimes glimpses of the future and the past. Most Magisters learn to cope with the sometimes unsettling visions they experience, reminding themselves that their art is one of mysteries that are impossible to unravel. But some phantasms are too frightening, too maddening to ignore. These are the vestiges, the essence of Chaos formed into something that resembles flesh, but is intangible, insubstantial, and can affect the world in no significant way—or so the Magisters say.

The things of the Aethyr, for lack of a better term, are harbingers, apparitions foretelling some significant event. They may take the form of a nest of wriggling maggots, the fiery forms of long-dead witches, or even a pack of ghostly hounds that breathe fire and shower sparks wherever they step. Despite their macabre and disgusting appearance, they seem to have no power over those who see them.

So, what then, are these things that only those with witchsight can see? There are many theories, ranging from Daemons struggling to breach the barrier between the world of men and the Realm of Chaos to hallucinations brought on as a result of dabbling in the forbidden. What is known for certain is the apparitions always appear in the aftermath of some significant magical event, as if they were drawn to the instance, somehow compelled to witness the caster in his act of magic use. More importantly, the same harbingers tend to appear time and again when certain conditions are met. For instance, the Handmaidens (see WFRP page 211) always manifest themselves after excessive use of Gold or Celestial Magic. The Rotwyrms seem drawn to Jade and Amethyst Magic, and so on. Since these apparitions appear again and again, there must be some reason for their appearance, and they must fulfil some purpose.

The Truth
The apparitions are as real as Daemons and as real as the Dark Gods themselves. Their existence is a window into the very nature of Chaos. Without the existence of Mankind, Chaos would have little power, since Chaos and its minions are reflections of the psyches and nightmares of mortals. Feeding on fear and misgiving, Chaos takes shape, becoming the very thing mortals loathe. Apparitions are formed from these same emotions, but are defined by the common myths and legends that have circulated amongst spellcasters since the Elves first dabbled with the Winds of Magic. They are what the Magister expects to see and nothing else. With each legend of the Dark Hounds or sightings of the All- Knowing Serpents, Magisters unconsciously look for these things, casting out their witchsight to see if they are being watched by their enemies, by the Daemons who lurk in the shadow of every spell they cast. Hence, they are both real and unreal; they are the manifestations of expectations, of the pervasive terror of what lies beyond the veil of reality.

Using Apparitions
Apparitions may serve a variety of purposes in a WFRP game. They may be nothing more than simple warnings to Players that they use magic too recklessly. They remind the spellcaster that his doom is imminent if he continues down the path. However, they can also function in more important ways. An apparition might appear as a warning that something strange and magical has recently occurred. It might reveal the presence of Daemonic activity, or offer a clue about some sinister plot. A character that uses Magical Sense when walking into a room that once held a possessed mortal might see reflections of the Daemon in a mirror. Or, if a Character uses witchsight in an area of particularly strong emotion, such as a murder scene, he might catch glimpse of blood running from the walls. In short, apparitions are a GM's tool, and the result of their appearance is left to the player to interpret.

Expanded Apparitions
The WFRP rulebook described four common apparitions GMs can use to haunt Player Character Wizards, but these are not the only things Wizards will see. Part of their appeal is that they have an established mythology, with countless legends about their appearance and purpose. The fact is Wizards who work magic can see anything with witchsight, lending to their air of mystery and horror of bending reality to achieve a desired affect. What follows are additional vestiges to expand on the ones already described. [...]
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By this passage, "apparitions" are symbolic magical phenomena (such as a mage seeing blood at the scene of a horrible murder despite it having been cleaned a while back), some of which can become strong enough to actually become predators to wizards. These predators are what the quest refers to as Apparitions, presumably for clarity.

I suppose we don't exactly know whether Apparitions are visible or not to non-wizards in quest? I'd have to go back through Boney's posts.
 
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