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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Talking to Iyanden on the last slot of the second day means Biel-Tan finds out on the third day, possibly late, and doesn't have time to do anything with the information that doesn't hurt them even worse.
 
Alratan said:
Something I think that we as a voting base may not have decided is what are we here for.

Are we here to make sure that Biel Tan is punished for future-crime and because we hate that the threat of them made us feel so vulnerable that we want to damage them as much as we can?

Or are we here to do our best to ensure that the Eldar overcome the Curses as best they can and recover as much of their lost power and freedom as is possible?

Those two goals are probably in conflict.

If we want to do what's long term most likely to lead the Eldar as a species and us as a Craftworld, we're probably best off if Biel Tan isn't publicly humiliated. If this entire episode is thrown down the memory hole and everyone quietly pretends it never happened/or was going to happen, a minimum of face is lost and it's easier for people to work together, or at least not at active cross-purposes, in the very long term. We don't want them to suffer the consequences of their potential actions if that consumes resources and attention better spent on more urgent problems.

Without knowledge of the Curses and the potential to start working to solve them, Saim-Han would rationally want the Aeldmoot to be about drawing a bright line around Biel Tan and calling them out.

With the knowledge about the Curses, Biel Tan's behaviour is literally yesterday's problem. We should try to help them avoid getting themselves into a position where they're stuck on solving that rather than having the flexibility to switch tracks.

And, in many ways, Biel Tan attacking us because they were greedy is a much easier problem to deal with long term than if they were attacking us for ideological reasons or personal hatred.

You can deal with a greedy person who makes a poor decision by appealing to that very greed and showing them a more profitable way to get the the kind of things they want much more easily than someone motivated by ideology or animus.

We just have to avoid falling into that trap ourselves.
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Back to the trenches I go
My fellow quester, we have mother fucking clown god backing us up; it is virtually guaranteed that everyone will believe that we shared the truth with them; hell, it was near guaranteed even with free actions that didn't require the aeldmoot.

The issue we as voters aren't in conflict over is if we should punish Biel-Tan for future crimes; we want them to be punished for past/current crimes (as do Preventionists) of impressment, robbery and being an ass. And to make sure that they can't do it anymore.

We are using Aeldmoot as intended to share the news and make politics. Gathering some allies to our confederation/coalition, gaining the goodwill of our race as a whole, maybe getting Alaitoc to no longer be hostile to us and making sure that Biel-tan doesn't do stupid shit are viable and useful goals.

And no, Biel-Tan is attacking us both for ideological and greed reasons. We have shinies, and we think that rebuilding Dominion (their mandate to exist) is stupid. It is virtually impossible to be allies with them for more than direct operation of saving Isha, and even then I am not sure we should trust them not to backstab us via inaction at the very least.

Punishing Biel-Tan now when we will have goodwill of 3 (maybe four if we warn Iyanden to research Biel-Tan assholery) other major craftworlds as well as Harlequins and the vast majority of all other smaller craftworlds is the best time to get them before they do stupid shit, like attack primarchs before they meet Big E, thus probably making sure that we are hated by them at the very least and pushing them into chaos at the very worst.

What we shouldn't do is punish them too severely, so the drukhari now will have major craftworld on their side, black arcs from fantasy style.
 
[X] Plan: To Create and Exploit Opportunities v.2, The Independents - And set up communication

I have no problem for Iyanden to have an egg on its face over this, also gives Biel-Tan no chance of reacting by way of getting the info that they will be called out from Iyanden.

 
Alratan said:
In terms of our bigger ambitions, we'r not here to continue or escalate the conflict with Biel Tan, or to try to claim some sort of moral victory or publicly humiliate them.

That seems deeply self-indulgent and counterproductive in the face of the threat that we all, including Biel Tan, face.

Indeed, it's a lesser version of the same form of selfishness and misplaced priorities that probably lead Biel Tan to try this in the first place.

I think it might make sense to want Saim-Han about what we've learned so they don't get themselves into a position of spending too much fighting a threat from Biel Tan that actually no longer exists, which might make it harder for them to team up with other people against the real enemy.



I don't believe that Biel Tan are anymore Khaine worshipers than anyone else here.

They're not a Wych Cult, you only find them in the Webway.

Sure, Khaine may have been partially rehabilitated amongst the Craftworld Eldar because of his sacrifice, but before the Fall he was apparently deeply unpopular. Biel Tan is more warlike and militaristic, but I'm absolutely certain they'd claim to be following in the path of Eldanesh, not of Khaine. I think their chosen iconography is of Asuryan, and that's more of a reflection of who they claim to be.

If you want to beat up some of the surviving Khaine worshippers, you'd need to find one of the Webway Realms where they're still having gladiatorial combats and honing the arts of murder.
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Profilozof said:
Back to the trenches I go
My fellow quester, we have mother fucking clown god backing us up; it is virtually guaranteed that everyone will believe that we shared the truth with them; hell, it was near guaranteed even with free actions that didn't require the aeldmoot.

The issue we as voters aren't in conflict over is if we should punish Biel-Tan for future crimes; we want them to be punished for past/current crimes (as do Preventionists) of impressment, robbery and being an ass. And to make sure that they can't do it anymore.

We are using Aeldmoot as intended to share the news and make politics. Gathering some allies to our confederation/coalition, gaining the goodwill of our race as a whole, maybe getting Alaitoc to no longer be hostile to us and making sure that Biel-tan doesn't do stupid shit are viable and useful goals.

And no, Biel-Tan is attacking us both for ideological and greed reasons. We have shinies, and we think that rebuilding Dominion (their mandate to exist) is stupid. It is virtually impossible to be allies with them for more than direct operation of saving Isha, and even then I am not sure we should trust them not to backstab us via inaction at the very least.

Punishing Biel-Tan now when we will have goodwill of 3 (maybe four if we warn Iyanden to research Biel-Tan assholery) other major craftworlds as well as Harlequins and the vast majority of all other smaller craftworlds is the best time to get them before they do stupid shit, like attack primarchs before they meet Big E, thus probably making sure that we are hated by them at the very least and pushing them into chaos at the very worst.

What we shouldn't do is punish them too severely, so the drukhari now will have major craftworld on their side, black arcs from fantasy style.
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So at least in my opinion while Biel-Tani shouldn't be main problem at the summit they need to be addressed and punished (not to hard, maybe reparations and return of things they stole).

But otherwise in my opinion best outcome is neutralizing of every capacity of Biel-Tan being the major power of its own and discrediting of their own brand of restoration of Eldari dominion, not to mention their subordination to Iyanden who will be able to watch over them more closely/control them due to their relative isolation. This also means that Iyanden will be able to dictate the focus of restorationists opposed to Biel-Tan being able to go Rouge from time to time and to make demands.

Going forward from this Moot we want to exit with more united Eldar race , more security and more friends.
 
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Star said:
So at least in my opinion while Biel-Tani shouldn't be main problem at the summit they need to be addressed and punished (not to hard, maybe reparations and return of things they stole).

But otherwise in my opinion best outcome is neutralizing of every capacity of Biel-Tan being the major power of its own and discrediting of their own brand of restoration of Eldari dominion, not to mention their subordination to Iyanden who will be able to watch over them more closely/control them due to their relative isolation. This also means that Iyanden will be able to dictate the focus of restorationists opposed to Biel-Tan being able to go Rouge from time to time and to make demands.

Going forward from this Moot we want to exit with more united Eldar race , more security and more friends.
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Fair enough, I agree, if not only so the fucking BIEL-TAN doesn't get the privilege of being the main focus of future history books.
 
I don't think that Diaspora - as in, entirety of it - really got the tools to truly leash Biel Tan if they want to be shitheads. The issue is, I don't really think that trying to be all knowing smiles and "lets just brush that under the carpet, we are all rational people, right?" gonna lead anywhere.

They are just going to be a major problem. That's what we need to make peace with.
 
Biel-Tan represents a fairly significant chunk of the total combat potential of the Eldar, at this point.

Given that we're extremely likely to not have to face a threat from them at this point, our goals regarding them shouldn't be about personal satisfaction, or even about our faction, but about the good of everyone as a whole.

Obviously, the kinstrife and looting has to stop immediately, since that flies in the face of those goals, but we should ultimately aim not to back Biel-Tan into such a corner that they go rogue. We'll likely need their armies when we eventually take the fight to Nurgle's garden, after all.

So in that context, if they get some forewarning from Iyanden... fine. It'll blunt the impact of Saim-Hann's accusation a bit, but there isn't that much spin they can actually accomplish with a day (potentially even less, depending on if Iyanden goes straight to them) of forewarning, and this moot isn't entirely about Biel-Tan anyway.
 
Prospalz said:
They are just going to be a major problem. That's what we need to make peace with.
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Pretty much the only stop them is that the other 4 major craftworlds stomp on them / kill Biel-Tan.

Thing is that I expect them to already have more than enough other shit to deal with that isn't going to result in massive losses to them.

So yeah they will be a long term problem.
 
Profilozof said:
Back to the trenches I go
My fellow quester, we have mother fucking clown god backing us up; it is virtually guaranteed that everyone will believe that we shared the truth with them; hell, it was near guaranteed even with free actions that didn't require the aeldmoot.

The issue we as voters aren't in conflict over is if we should punish Biel-Tan for future crimes; we want them to be punished for past/current crimes (as do Preventionists) of impressment, robbery and being an ass. And to make sure that they can't do it anymore.

We are using Aeldmoot as intended to share the news and make politics. Gathering some allies to our confederation/coalition, gaining the goodwill of our race as a whole, maybe getting Alaitoc to no longer be hostile to us and making sure that Biel-tan doesn't do stupid shit are viable and useful goals.

And no, Biel-Tan is attacking us both for ideological and greed reasons. We have shinies, and we think that rebuilding Dominion (their mandate to exist) is stupid. It is virtually impossible to be allies with them for more than direct operation of saving Isha, and even then I am not sure we should trust them not to backstab us via inaction at the very least.

Punishing Biel-Tan now when we will have goodwill of 3 (maybe four if we warn Iyanden to research Biel-Tan assholery) other major craftworlds as well as Harlequins and the vast majority of all other smaller craftworlds is the best time to get them before they do stupid shit, like attack primarchs before they meet Big E, thus probably making sure that we are hated by them at the very least and pushing them into chaos at the very worst.

What we shouldn't do is punish them too severely, so the drukhari now will have major craftworld on their side, black arcs from fantasy style.
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Yeah.

Biel-Tan can have more than one reason to go after us. That we have stuff they can steal is just convenient for them.
 
so, since the bandwagon seems to be well and truly rolling, let's chat about something else.

it seems like none of the adaptionists have taken "a shield of spirit" or if they did, they have not been notably successful.

Which is kind of a pity, as it was a rely cool idea.

Although maybe that's what the exodites do?
 
IronFist said:
so, since the bandwagon seems to be well and truly rolling, let's chat about something else.

it seems like none of the adaptionists have taken "a shield of spirit" or if they did, they have not been notably successful.

Which is kind of a pity, as it was a rely cool idea.

Although maybe that's what the exodites do?
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It would be nice if exodties fought toghter with their weapons as comrades in arms
 
IronFist said:
so, since the bandwagon seems to be well and truly rolling, let's chat about something else.

it seems like none of the adaptionists have taken "a shield of spirit" or if they did, they have not been notably successful.

Which is kind of a pity, as it was a rely cool idea.

Although maybe that's what the exodites do?
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As the flavor text states, that is essentially what the Exodites are doing/how World Spirits work, they just don't have the cultural and infrastructural means and or desire to extend it further into "literally everything has a Spirit-construct in it" as would be that option's Faction Quest.

Edit: basically, nomadic herders and sustainace farmers tend to not be getting a lot of erestotic physics research done, for a comparable field.
 
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Mechanis said:
As the flavor text states, that is essentially what the Exodites are doing/how World Spirits work, they just don't have the cultural and infrastructural means and or desire to extend it further into "literally everything has a Spirit-construct in it" as would be that option's Faction Quest.

Edit: basically, nomadic herders and sustainace farmers tend to not be getting a lot of erestotic physics research done, for a comparable field.
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are there any adaptionists that have taken the "deny the warp entire" option?
 
Karnax626 said:
I'm not sure that's a viable use for their forces, considering they're here to help protect us specifically.
Meros was fine because they were supplementing the forces we'd already sent, and the same for the pirate hunters.

Edit: We could probably do an introduction so said Craftworld can negotiate with Zahr-Tan directly?
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No, that's not the arrangement at all. we have their fleet in perpetuatity for any reasonable operation. sure, it's not good manners to throw them away against an extremis system or such, but crast world defense against a reasonable foe is perfectly acceptable.
10ebbor10 said:
We brought these 2, so maybe we should try to see if there are some martial types we can talk to to take advantage?
Get some info and inspiration on the latest tactics, talk shop, stuff like that?
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it'll probably end up influencing the independents block in terms of who we talk too.
Profilozof said:
I think that we don't have enough street creed for the free action, yet.
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sure we do. being one of the few large craft worlds with a decent alliance and two impressive relics, exotics, and starter techs would be enough. If we'd brought the serpent of the stars sword of vaul class they'd be battering down doors.

and I nodded and woke up to voting. at least it's for meeting with a group I wanted to meet with. that said, @Profilozof maybe edit in some basic cordial discussion about common interests to establish a bit of good will before we tip them off? being a bit more than random large craft world their neutral towards might help things go slightly better in terms of them taking us seriously.

I think we are going to regret feeling out the Asuryani rather than leaving a spot open for the Harlequins or someone else important to show up to meet with us, but what can you do.

[X] Plan: To Create Opportunities and see what the ember of old knows
 
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[X]Plan Paths, Partners, and Lifeboats
-[X]Firelord Erenesh, to put out feelers among the the Asuryanis, and to convey a polite apology to the Autarch if he will have it.
-[X]Kher-Ys, to compare notes. Our Forge of Vaul might be of interest here, if nothing else to make the necessary tooling.
-[X]Durran Fellwinter, on the possibility of leaving an escape hatch for Iyanden when he accuses Biel-Tan--we're planning on rapid industrial expansion in the coming decades and we may be able to make time for a reasonably generous inducement to ditch Biel-Tan in favor of one of the other factions.
 
[X]Plan Paths, Partners, and Lifeboats
-[X]Firelord Erenesh, to put out feelers among the the Asuryanis, and to convey a polite apology to the Autarch if he will have it.
-[X]Kher-Ys, to compare notes. Our Forge of Vaul might be of interest here, if nothing else to make the necessary tooling.
-[X]Durran Fellwinter, on the possibility of leaving an escape hatch for Iyanden when he accuses Biel-Tan--we're planning on rapid industrial expansion in the coming decades and we may be able to make time for a reasonably generous inducement to ditch Biel-Tan in favor of one of the other factions.
 
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