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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Looks like I should have started voting before I went to sleep; it'll likely be impossible to make up this lead. Oh well.

[X] Plan: This Is How You Fight Like Vaul, v. 3
-[X] Star Combat Squad (Total Cost 131 EP, 1 Psy-scope, 1 Starcrystal)
--[X][Trooper1] 1x Void Guard Warsuit, Fatespitter Carbine, Starblaster Pistol (20 EP, 1 Psy-scope, 1 Starcrystal)
--[X][Trooper2] 6x Void Guard Warsuit, Needler Carbine, Close Combat Weapon (66 EP)
--[X][Trooper3] 5x Void Guard Warsuit, Spike Carbine, Flamer Pistol (55 EP)
-[X] Blazingsword Rifle Squad (232 EP, 22 Starcrystal)
--[X][Trooper1] 11x Void Guard Warsuit, Starblaster Rifle, CCW Sword (187 EP, 22 Starcrystal)
--[X][Trooper2] 1x Ithilmar, Screamer Grenade Launcher, Power Sword (45 EP)
-[X] Forgefire Assault Squad (612 EP)
--[X][Trooper 1] 6x Ithilmar, Power Maul, Heavy Flamer
--[X][Trooper 2] 6x Ithilmar, Power Maul, Heavy Needler

This uses two of the Dire Avengers plan's units (one with some cost correction) since after discussion I agree on most things there, but our third Troop choice should really be medium infantry in Void Guard suits, not half-sized heavy armor sniper teams. Heavy armor sniper teams can be an Elite choice. The medium infantry design here is all-carbine (maximizing mobility while running and shooting) with a mix of spike and needler weapons to effectively shred opposing infantry and heavy infantry units; the auto-aim on the Void Guard suits should help a lot with that too.


Edit: Pricing correction on Starcrystals


Karugus said:
-[X] Blazingsword Rifle Squad (204 EP, 22 Star Crystal)
--[X][Trooper1] 11x Void Guard Warsuit, Starblaster Rifle, CCW Sword (15 EP,2 Starcrystal)
--[X][Trooper2] 1x Ithilmar, Screamer Grenade Launcher, Power Sword (35 EP)
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Your starcrystal costs here are too low. Starblaster rifles are 5 starcrystals each, so this squad costs 55, not 22. The weirdness in the Wargear infomark is pretty clearly a copy/paste error. Also, math on this unit is way off; Void Guard+Starblaster+CCW is 17 EP and Ilthilmar+Screamer+Power Sword is 45 EP.

Karnax626 said:
@Mechanis how is it decided what area our units fall under? Stuff like the Marksman squad here feel like they'd be Heavy Support if this was TT, or Forgefire coming under Elites, so them counting as Troops because that's when we designed them feels weird.
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This was answered earlier here- we can declare a unit to be part of whatever category we want, but then we can be stuck with weirdness that we will have to live with later. The example given was:
(Witness Saim-Hann and its "we don't believe in infantry, MAOR JETBIKES" approach.)
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Whatever wins the vote now is a Troop choice for us.
 
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Arkio said:
Although, come to think of it, the 8 000 assumedly volunteer forces out of our total of five and a half billion population probably have the right spirit for the job, at the very least. I imagine at least some of them have kept the job after the immediate catastrophe passed for reasons other than duty.
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We lost about 200-600 million in the fall.
Most of our actual military was likely part of that.

DarkLight140 said:
Your starcrystal costs here are too low. Starblaster rifles are 5 starcrystals each, so this squad costs 55, not 22. The weirdness in the Wargear infomark is pretty clearly a copy/paste error. Also, math on this unit is way off; Void Guard+Starblaster+CCW is 17 EP and Ilthilmar+Screamer+Power Sword is 45 EP.
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Almost certainly the starblaster rifle cost 2 starcrystals not 5.
We know that the starblaster carbines which are pretty much the same weapon* just tunes to be better for closer range/much faster movement cost 2 starcrystals.

*same given weapon strength and fire rate, but likely a good bit less range than the rifle.
 
Food for thought, I bet once we get them we could upgrade melta weapons and maybe plasma guns with Starcrystal. I also wonder if we could upgrade melta and Plasma weapons with fatecaster tech...
 
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Mechanis said:
Point of order, we're not doing any of that, because it's completely not needed; Orks don't want to Ortillery things because that takes all the fun out of it, Imperials don't either because they're typically fighting on their own planets and at least trying to limit the collateral damage--and they don't have the technology to do so accurately, Eldar don't because they are generally doing things where that kind of sledgehammer approach is counterproductive to their goals, Dark Eldar don't for essentially the same reason, Nids don't because that makes it harder to eat everything, Tau don't because they actually care about optics/PR, Necrons don't because that's a cultural no-no and the sane ones cling to their culture rabidly (and the insane ones are, well, insane,) even Chaos forces generally don't, though reasons may vary.
So you don't need any more reason than "most of the time, people just don't use orbital strikes (even if they have the capability) because they aren't going to actually help/are too costly in collateral damage/are just not the right tool for the job/they just don't want to."

Never invent a complicated explaination that relies on everything having massive background equipment when a simple one that relies on the faction's culture will do!
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Oooo so glassing the ork worlds is an option we could take if we need to?

inirlan said:
You yourself mention the Starcarvers, which our troops aren't set to use. Also, much more liberal assignment of power weapons.
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Yeah, and in a pinch I guess they could work outbut in terms of 40k, there's usually a big difference between an elite unit and a standard trooper in terms of their wargear, no?

Arkio said:
In terms of gear, not much. In terms of skill, well, the actual possession thereof.
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Yeah this makes more sense actually. All of our troops would have pretty similar equipment, but the higher up you go more experienced the troopers get, not much gear diversity (at the moment) but the difference between a Voidspear and a Hearthguard Fatebreaker would boil down to difference in skill (literal skill issue)

CryBryNry said:
Did we save that one craft world yet? What will happen o them? Will they join our flotilla or go their seperate ways? Us small craft worlds gotta stick together!
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As of right now, we've put 3 points (out of four) into speeding up the repairs of their engines and beating back an ork clean up fleet, with any luck they should prioritize the engines and be able to skedaddle away before the Orks are able to try again (whenever that may be)

Conversely, repairs of the ships hasn't recieved a progress report yet (we might get one after this) but I have to guess it'll take at least a couple turns to patch up their fleet (unless we send bonesingers to help fix the shipyards) so Arach-Qin is currently being worked on too.

Zahr-Tann has about 2 points invested into it out of three (iirc), so with any luck they should also be able to finish up by next turn, and if not, then we send a point over to get them to hurry up

As for what happens to Meros after this? I dunno, it depends on luck and the QM, but I reckon they might either recognize the work we did to save them (including a 60% obliteration of the Ork's fleet without being detected and fixing their engines) and decide to join us (think of the EP output we could get with TWO craftworlds!), or they decide to leave (albeit with the biggest thanks they can give and a promise to make it up to us somehow).

Arach-Qin is outright promising an alliance and a war-in-heaven-era battleship in exchange for our help (although I will suggest us helping out with fixing their shipyard even though we don't have to so it helps wash the salt out of the wound)

As for Zahr-Tann? I'm not sure honestly, I'm hoping they join us in an alliance so we can use their military expertise to get our troops into working order / use them as a good recruiting pool for promising soldiers, but if not, the warhost they give should be good enough for now.

Whatever happens, we end up with three craftworlds that are happy we helped, one who is guaranteed to join us (Arach-Qin) and a possibility that Meros lets itself get absorbed into us / become Vulkhari (or basically, we get extra ep and a few more dice maybe? Heck even the EP alone would be worth it)
 
DarkLight140 said:
This was answered earlier here- we can declare a unit to be part of whatever category we want, but then we can be stuck with weirdness that we will have to live with later. The example given was:
Whatever wins the vote now is a Troop choice for us.
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Huh, my bad then. Forgot it'd already been answered.

[X] Plan: Leave some goodies for the Elites
-[X] Blazingsword Rifle Squad (204 EP, 22 Starcrystals)
--[X][Trooper1] 11x Void Guard Warsuit, Starblaster Rifle, CCW Sword (15 EP, 2 Starcrystals)
--[X][Trooper2] 1x Ithilmar, Screamer Grenade Launcher, Power Sword (35 EP)
-[X] Forgefire Assault Squad (306 EP)
---[X][Trooper 1] 3x Ithilmar, Power Maul, Heavy Flamer
---[X][Trooper 2] 3x Ithilmar, Power Maul, Heavy Needler
-[X] Marksmen Squad (209 EP, 1 Psy-scope)
----[X][Trooper1] 11x Void Guard Warsuit, 11x Spike Rifle, 11x Needler Pistol (143 EP)
----[X][Trooper2] 1x Ithilmar, 1x Fatecaster rifle, 1x Power Sword (66 EP, 1 Psy-scope)

Decided to actually make my own plan. Made the Forgefire Squad smaller, and swapped out the all Ithilmar Marksman squad for one with mostly Void Guard suits. I figure the Auto-targeters make up for having Spike Rifles instead of Fatecasters, and the pistols should help if anything gets in range (or they leave it to the squad leader). Not happy with the name, but I'd rather just post now than wait until I've figured one out.

I just like the idea of having some level of distinction between our Troops and our Elites.
 
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BigFungus26 said:
Yeah this makes more sense actually. All of our troops would have pretty similar equipment, but the higher up you go more experienced the troopers get, not much gear diversity (at the moment) but the difference between a Voidspear and a Hearthguard Fatebreaker would boil down to difference in skill (literal skill issue)
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Funnily enough, I just realized that the elites probably decorate the shit out of their gear while the glue-sniffers are identical to each other save for, perhaps, basic role/whatever identification markings. I think the Hearthguard are historical reenactors, even? Yeah, they are decking out their gear as far as is possible.

Also, to test an idea, what do you people think about power armour that comes with generally effective weaponry attached to it so that a separate weapon, strictly speaking, need not be issued to a warrior? Not much practical use for this in-universe that I can see, but smashing the weapon and armour costs together might be a much-needed source of mercy when it comes to keeping track of everything, although this would have to be aimed at the scrubs to justify the generality.
 
Arkio said:
Also, to test an idea, what do you people think about power armour that comes with generally effective weaponry attached to it so that a separate weapon, strictly speaking, need not be issued to a warrior? Not much practical use for this in-universe that I can see, but smashing the weapon and armour costs together might be a much-needed source of mercy when it comes to keeping track of everything, although this would have to be aimed at the scrubs to justify the generality.
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I'm on board with the idea. I do remember hearing something about EP discounts for built in weapons but I can't find anything about that, so whether that's actually a thing is up in the air. There is also a practical benefit to this, namely built in weapons probably benefit much more heavily from Auto-targeters, and can draw from the suit's internal energy reserves.
 
Arkio said:
Funnily enough, I just realized that the elites probably decorate the shit out of their gear while the glue-sniffers are identical to each other save for, perhaps, basic role/whatever identification markings. I think the Hearthguard are historical reenactors, even? Yeah, they are decking out their gear as far as is possible.

Also, to test an idea, what do you people think about power armour that comes with generally effective weaponry attached to it so that a separate weapon, strictly speaking, need not be issued to a warrior? Not much practical use for this in-universe that I can see, but smashing the weapon and armour costs together might be a much-needed source of mercy when it comes to keeping track of everything, although this would have to be aimed at the scrubs to justify the generality.
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For me, survivability of the people inside the armor pretty much always has the highest priority.
Means most of the slots will go to Holo-Fields, Grav-Shields, Convertion Shields and + Extra Assist to keep up their speed.

If we want more firepower, go and get a vehicle like the Light or Heavy Grav-vehicle and slap weapons on that.
Something like 2 Starcarver + Starlance would be one possibility to just say fuck you any enemy vehicles
Or go with 2 Starcarver + Fateshreedder Cannon to fuck up all kinds of infantry.
 
so a thought for later development, we are probably never going to field particularly large armies, which is mostly fine but it leaves us a worrying weakness. If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to kill billions of enemy combatants we will be at major risk of being worn down. Sure we're well positioned to be able to make it hard to force us into that situation, but this is 40k, shit goes wrong in fucky ways all the time, so it may well happen at some point. So we need an answer for it, one that does not need a lot of manpower. Fortunately, in 40k such an answer exists, Titans.

this would fore sure be something for the mid or late game, but I think the approach synergizes with our emerging focus on elite and super elite infantry. The right kind of titan can just mow down armies of guard tire units without fear, so long as the few counters they have to titans have been stripped away. So we would have a generally useful blunt force option, that also gives us the capability to actually destroy rather than cripple large armies.
 
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random_npc said:
so a thought for later development, we are probably never going to field particularly large armies, which is mostly fine but it leaves us a worrying weakness. If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to kill billions of enemy combatants we will be at major risk of being worn down. Sure we're well positioned to be able to make it hard to force us into that situation, but this is 40k, shit goes wrong in fucky ways all the time, so it may well happen at some point so we need an answer for it. However, this is 40k so an answer exists, Titans.

this would fore sure be something for the mid or late game, but I think the approach synergies with our emerging focus on elite and super elite infantry. The right kind of titan can just mow down armies of guard tire units without fear, so long as the few counters they have to titans have been stripped away. So we would have a generally useful blunt force option, that also gives us the capability to actually destroy rather than cripple large armies.
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If we have that number of enemies to kill, orbital bombardment also becomes an option.

Hell, that is most likely what we will do to pretty much all Ork worlds we know off after we cleared out the orbitals.

But yes pretty sure we will also field our own Titans and give them more than fucking Holo-Fields for defense like the other craftworlds do for some fucking reason.
 
Arkio said:
Funnily enough, I just realized that the elites probably decorate the shit out of their gear while the glue-sniffers are identical to each other save for, perhaps, basic role/whatever identification markings. I think the Hearthguard are historical reenactors, even? Yeah, they are decking out their gear as far as is possible.
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I'm expecting a lot of gold filigree for our elites to make them stand out, some serious ornamentation and personal effects added onto the Ithilmar to make each suit their own unique plate, that sort of thing (or the funnier option of one Hearthguard's ornament basically being the Vulkhari equivalent of the phrase "I fucked your mom, shitlips!")

Arkio said:
Also, to test an idea, what do you people think about power armour that comes with generally effective weaponry attached to it so that a separate weapon, strictly speaking, need not be issued to a warrior? Not much practical use for this in-universe that I can see, but smashing the weapon and armour costs together might be a much-needed source of mercy when it comes to keeping track of everything, although this would have to be aimed at the scrubs to justify the generality.
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Ehhh we can't really afford the slot spaces to squeeze a built-in weapon into our armour (not when we're prioritising survivability), unless we find a way to squeeze in an extra built in weapon for our Ithilmar without compromising it (or if we find out how to add more slots) we're basically at the limit of our armour's capabilities right now (could be a research thing)

On the plus side with the Ithilmar, we have wraithguard analogues as our troops (at a cost of probably being slower than an unburdened Eldar, which is probably still faster than a Human).

Also off topic but @Mechanis I have two questions for you.

1) You said our Craftworld's colour scheme is black and green, right (at least according to the seer result?)
2) How fast exactly is our Ithilmar suit? The flavour text says it moves with "shocking speed" but is that "Shocking for it's size and weight" or "Shocking because it can run full sprint"?

Or worded another way: "As a purely hypothetical question, say there's an unburdened Biel-Tan Guardian running away from us, could our Ithilmar catch up to them?"

random_npc said:
so a thought for later development, we are probably never going to field particularly large armies, which is mostly fine but it leaves us a worrying weakness. If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to kill billions of enemy combatants we will be at major risk of being worn down. Sure we're well positioned to be able to make it hard to force us into that situation, but this is 40k, shit goes wrong in fucky ways all the time, so it may well happen at some point. So we need an answer for it, one that does not need a lot of manpower. Fortunately, in 40k such an answer exists, Titans.

this would fore sure be something for the mid or late game, but I think the approach synergizes with our emerging focus on elite and super elite infantry. The right kind of titan can just mow down armies of guard tire units without fear, so long as the few counters they have to titans have been stripped away. So we would have a generally useful blunt force option, that also gives us the capability to actually destroy rather than cripple large armies.
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Yeah I can definitely see orbital bombardment and titans being our go-to's for dealing with entrenched and fortified planets with defenders numbering in the billions.

Bomb the planet to soften them, drop in titans to carve up the largest concentrations of enemies, pull back and send in the troops to mop up the survivors, or just glass the planet entirely if it's not worth the effort to invade.
 
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There is also the tried and true method of just having a patsy. I mean ally. I mean sufficiently large rock to chuck at the problem if it has gotten to the point where we would have to otherwise throw rocks at said army.

We are the Aeldari, regardless of the fact that *we* like our giant guns and fancy armor, we can always trick the Humans into doing our dirty work because it is likely to be in both of our interests anyway. Usually.
 
BigFungus26 said:
Ehhh we can't really afford the slot spaces to squeeze a built-in weapon into our armour (not when we're prioritising survivability), unless we find a way to squeeze in an extra built in weapon for our Ithilmar without compromising it (or if we find out how to add more slots) we're basically at the limit of our armour's capabilities right now (could be a research thing)
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Removing the holofield and readding it later as Gear, since the Ithilmar grants an extra gear slot, would be one way to do it. Moderately more expensive, as you'd expect, but it might be worth it in some cases.
 
Professor Vesca said:
There is also the tried and true method of just having a patsy. I mean ally. I mean sufficiently large rock to chuck at the problem if it has gotten to the point where we would have to otherwise throw rocks at said army.

We are the Aeldari, regardless of the fact that *we* like our giant guns and fancy armor, we can always trick the Humans into doing our dirty work because it is likely to be in both of our interests anyway. Usually.
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I don't think the human worlds around us are going to matter too much for the next ~1000 years, because the great crusade doesn't start until then and the local humans only seem to have barely held onto their ability to still build spacecraft.

Naturally doesn't help that the orks are throwing waarghs at them.
... might want to spend a action next turn to see if the humans are in danger of falling any time soon.
 
Some ideas for Gear, since we currently only have holofields, and it would be nice to be able to make use of the Ithilmar's extra slots.
1. Conversion fields are probably going to be Gear, just as a note, since they are said to be small enough to be equipped by infantry, like holofields.
2. Mobility booster. Rocket boosters/a grav wingpack to carry a unit around and let them practically, or actually, fly around the battlefield. This would be especially hilarious/cool on the ithilmar.
3. Grenades.
 
Skjadir said:
For me, survivability of the people inside the armor pretty much always has the highest priority.
Means most of the slots will go to Holo-Fields, Grav-Shields, Convertion Shields and + Extra Assist to keep up their speed.

If we want more firepower, go and get a vehicle like the Light or Heavy Grav-vehicle and slap weapons on that.
Something like 2 Starcarver + Starlance would be one possibility to just say fuck you any enemy vehicles
Or go with 2 Starcarver + Fateshreedder Cannon to fuck up all kinds of infantry.
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The problem with slapping on every active defensive measure we have is cost and space. The fucking grav shield on the Ithilmar is one point short of costing twice as much as the rest of the entire armour put together and, now that I look at it, also takes up four shitting slots. Holofield is literally a fifth of its cost at 3 EP on top of only taking up a quarter of the space. If the conversion shield is the "middle ground" between these two then it will still cost a good bit on top of taking up space. Pure conjecture on my part, so you can safely ignore that, but the point about the grav shield stands. It's good on heavy, elite and hero units, where the investment can repay itself, but for a mass production armour? No thanks.

Also, I'm not sure how you got "want more firepower" out of what I wrote. I think it points towards the exact opposite, actually, what with putting armour and weapon costs together into a probably underwhelming and underperforming item for the sake of some small peace of mind when it comes to organising.
BigFungus26 said:
Ehhh we can't really afford the slot spaces to squeeze a built-in weapon into our armour (not when we're prioritising survivability), unless we find a way to squeeze in an extra built in weapon for our Ithilmar without compromising it (or if we find out how to add more slots) we're basically at the limit of our armour's capabilities right now (could be a research thing)
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Yeet the grav shield, simple as. It is unwieldy with its 15 EP cost and 4 slots. Can now go for max assist with extra gravy on top, such as aim assist, an in-built weapon, be it a backup, dedicated sidearm or melee, or extra plating to still get in some extra survivability at a much cheaper cost. Not nearly as effective, no, but if we are going to be using power armour for everyone, then let's at least try to make equipping people in it feasible on a timescale other than hundreds of years.
 
I actually think that the Grav-shield version of Ithilmar armor will end up being replaced with conversion fields when we get them.

Assuming the Conversion field is just 1 slot, it would give us 3 more slots to play with.

And given the conversion field is actually infantry scaled, It's likely to be a fair bit cheaper than the Grav shield.
 
Arkio said:
The problem with slapping on every active defensive measure we have is cost and space. The fucking grav shield on the Ithilmar is one point short of costing twice as much as the rest of the entire armour put together and, now that I look at it, also takes up four shitting slots. Holofield is literally a fifth of its cost at 3 EP on top of only taking up a quarter of the space. If the conversion shield is the "middle ground" between these two then it will still cost a good bit on top of taking up space. Pure conjecture on my part, so you can safely ignore that, but the point about the grav shield stands. It's good on heavy, elite and hero units, where the investment can repay itself, but for a mass production armour? No thanks.
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The grav-shields fill a pretty important role for the heavy power armor.
With the amount of shit they can tank with their armor, the weapon of choice against them is anti tank weaponry.

The holo-Fields cover part of it by making them hard to target, the gravy shields have no problem taking care of the few shots that still might hit them, they also generally don't care about the power of these hits to much compared to conversion fields.

It's a pretty nice combination with lots of synergy that turn them from a pain to kill, into something very nasty that need a lot of focused fire on just one squad and then pray that you get enough shots on one of them to a) down the gravy shield and b) actually take down the armor.
 
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Random thoughr but I think we might actually be able to REALLY threaten a space marine legion if we're able to produce the Ithilmar / exotic weapons at enough quantities to equip a (relatively) sizeable amount of troops.

The most common weapon our soldiers use is an aimbot minigun (fatecaster rifle) that fires razor sharp needles the size of your finger that always go for the weakpoints in a target (the joints of power armour, the seams in the plating, or just into a space marine's head if they're not wearing a helmet), our second most common weapon is fully automatic and almost has the same power as a lascannon (Starblaster Rifle) that shoots like a hellgun, and our assault squads WILL shrug off enough firepower to close into melee and chop up (or cave in the skulls of) any space marines who think we can't fight in melee, nothing short of Primarch/Anatoli level plot armour is going to match us in a fight.

Hell, out fleets ALONE could probably intercept a lot of the imperial fleet and since the ships HAVE to be close to be able to board us, that means a lot of space marines either dead or unable to join the fight (glorianas might be able to close the distance, but we'd make them BLEED for it) and any survivors that do make it to the finish line get to experience the Assault Ithilmar conga-line firsthand.

(Granted, our fleets right now are kinda crap, but once we refit them with some actually good stuff? Hoo boy)

In trying to kill the Orks, we may have accidentally stumbled on the winning combination to also killing Humans (I can hear the Biel-Tan xenophobia from here)

But yeah this is currently all fluff/lore at the moment, and ultimately our performance depends upon if RNG smiles upon us if a Legion finds us by the time of the great crusade (and by that point we'd probably have a railgun that can kill a C'tan and ships that can time travel or something)
 
BigFungus26 said:
Hell, out fleets ALONE could probably intercept a lot of the imperial fleet and since the ships HAVE to be close to be able to board us, that means a lot of space marines either dead or unable to join the fight (glorianas might be able to close the distance, but we'd make them BLEED for it) and any survivors that do make it to the finish line get to experience the Assault Ithilmar conga-line firsthand.
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The best way to deal with a space marine legion is likely to use our seers, check which ships have the most space marines on them/act as transports for them.

And then focus fire a few of them, run away and then repeat over a series of ambushes.
 
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