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So the thread is basically viewing this as a highly dangerous self-improvement action? If I could draw an analogy, like voting to try to Gild body parts if we were playing a gold wizard?

Well, with the added kickers of getting to see inside a notoriously secretive part of a legendarily opaque society, the possibilities of making reputation and friends amongst said thousand year old ulgu ninjas, and the possibility of being drawn into more Ulthuan stuff once we are there which might just (for example) lead to stuff with Archmages.
 
[x] Druchii Diplomats
[X] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods
[x] [ITHILMAR] Precious Stones

Personally I am for putting off the Naggoroth trip for one more turn so we can roll out the waystones in Kislev before we leave. So we can accomplish that if the worst happens.
 
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Well, with the added kickers of getting to see inside a notoriously secretive part of a legendarily opaque society, the possibilities of making reputation and friends amongst said thousand year old ulgu ninjas, and the possibility of being drawn into more Ulthuan stuff once we are there which might just (for example) lead to stuff with Archmages.

Also maybe or maybe not learning something about the relation between Loec and Ranald.
 
So the thread is basically viewing this as a highly dangerous self-improvement action? If I could draw an analogy, like voting to try to Gild body parts if we were playing a gold wizard?
A portion of the thread is also hoping that we'll be able to parley any achievements into further rewards, but yeah that's pretty much it.

Some people also just want to go on an adventure mini-arc.
 
Edit: I do hope vote for trade goods means people will actually do something with EIC, cause otherwise we will be k8nda wasting an action here compared to other rewards. Cause, you know, I am pretty sure otherwise a lot money now is more optimal compared to passive increase in income.
If you want to talk utility then what have we actually gained from the Library? A tiny increase in some situational bonuses? How is that worth the blank-cheque of a boon and the many half AP we have spent on it?

Currently what we are using the EIC for is to create economic ties between the Reik Empire and Laurelorn. Ties that we our minion can monitor for any signs of trouble and that will enrich not only Mathilde but many of her friends and allies. Ties that help to stabilise international relations and prompt cooperation.

The EIC isn't just a money generator. It isn't just a place for our spies to hang out. It isn't just a tool for shaping the geopolitical landscape.

Tens of thousands of gold crowns is equivalent to like a hundred turns of EIC income.

If you want Money: Yes, pick gold or gems
The fact that we can get a loan loan basically anywhere using the EIC shares as collateral makes spending a unique boon like this on mere money a lot less appealing.
 
[X] Initiate
[X] Dooming and Quickening
[X] Witch Hunter
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] The Festival Lord
[X] Skull River Ambush

[X] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods
 
While what I really want is the Druchii action.

I will vote for Festival Lord if only to make a token attempt at keeping up with elf politics.

[x] Druchii Diplomats
[x] The Festival Lord
[x] [ITHILMAR] Precious Stones
 
I found a description of Elfcation from Boney. I really don't think people should be advocating for Elfcation on the basis of it giving us leverage in Ulthuan. Even if you ignore the description of the Shadowlands from canon as a desolate land inhabited by nomads that Ulthuan looks down on, these do not sound like a people with very much influence in the courts of the Phoenix King and Everqueen.

We'll learn stuff about killing Druchii and how the Shadow Warriors do thing (though the Venn Diagram of these two things is basically a circle). That probably includes things like bladework, scouting, magic, ect. I wouldn't be surprised if they give us tips about how to dispell common Druchii spells. They also might give some insights about how to put pressure on Druchii to cause them to revert to backstabbing. I imagine Shadow Warriors have experience playing Druchii politics too.

"I take it from your delivering to me of a Druchii, freshly punched in the face, that you are a connoisseur of punching Druchii in the face. I understand that this is a difficult appetite to sate in your home continent. In stark contrast, we have many Druchii in dire need of being punched in the face at home, you can come hang out and punch all the Druchii in the face that you want and watch how we punch Druchii in the face, which we have had a great deal of time and opportunity to hone the techniques of."

Nagarythe is aware that there are many fields of study that are not relating to punching Druchii in the face. They may, if pressed, even admit that there are legitimate reasons for those other fields to exist. But those topics are not ones regularly taught in the Shadowlands.

A portion of the thread is also hoping that we'll be able to parley any achievements into further rewards, but yeah that's pretty much it.
I really dislike the arguments that we'll get much credit with Ulthuan. I want to go on Elfcation but it feels dishonest to try to argue that an internship with the people that Asur feel freaked out by will get us a lot of political goodwill. Look at how Boney described their academic knowledge.

Imagine we saved some random village in the Wastelands from the Fimir or some other enemy. Would Marienburg care all that much about it? No. It's the Wastelands, not something important. And as it stands the internship is the reward. Sure, if Mathilde kills Malekith or some other named Druchii she'll get credit for it. But we aren't to face Named Druchii.
 
The proper response at that point would be for Mathilde to go out and finger out what the fuck is going on, even if she didn't have an indirect connection to the situation.
Tfw the greater daemon you accidentally provoked a cult into summoning gets decapitated and you're faced down with an incredibly pissed Lord Magister and wondering if you weren't better off with the daemon.
 
Adhoc vote count started by mathymancer on Apr 27, 2024 at 10:27 AM, finished with 859 posts and 149 votes.

So we're "only" 12 hours into the vote, but there are already 149 voters so I think it's worth looking at the state of it.

In the social vote, we have the K8P Wizard, Mandred's Dooming, and the College examination with a very clear lead, with over 120 votes each. Fourth we have the Witch Hunter, with 68 votes. The fifth place is where things get interesting: Sarvoi and the The Festival Lord are nearly tied with 55 votes for Sarvoi and 57 votes for Kadoh, so it seems likely that only one elf is going to make it into the final five. The other options are more than 20 votes behind.

In the Ithilmar votes EICmaxxing currently has a clear lead with 64 votes. Bookmaxxing is behind it with 38, tied with gems. If both book votes end up tallied together - which I think is likely - then the BOOK option is slightly better off with 40 votes, still well behind Trade Goods.
 
If you want to talk utility then what have we actually gained from the Library? A tiny increase in some situational bonuses? How is that worth the blank-cheque of a boon and the many half AP we have spent on it?

Currently what we are using the EIC for is to create economic ties between the Reik Empire and Laurelorn. Ties that we our minion can monitor for any signs of trouble and that will enrich not only Mathilde but many of her friends and allies. Ties that help to stabilise international relations and prompt cooperation.

The EIC isn't just a money generator. It isn't just a place for our spies to hang out. It isn't just a tool for shaping the geopolitical landscape.
I strongly disagree that a 5-15 bonus on a d100 for every action we take is "tiny" or "situational". The whole point of having a Library is gathering all of the "situational" bonuses until they are effectively not situational, by weight of numbers.

Well, the point mechanically, at least. There's also the wider point about the preservation of knowledge against the setting's chronic "and then that settlement was lost, and all of the knowledge stored there lost with it" problem. The Empire and the Karaz Ankor getting the entire knowledge base of a civilisation is not trivial; I would argue that it is, frankly, worth more than the nebulous diplomatic gains of getting the EIC great deals at Laurelorn.

Because Laurelorn is already preparing to tie itself to the Empire by trade - we're told this in the update. This isn't opening up Laurelorn to trade, it's speeding up and improving trade for the EIC specifically. Which is no doubt beneficial for the EIC monetarily and for spying purposes, but isn't actually all that much more than Laurelorn was already preparing for, in terms of trade.

I really dislike the arguments that we'll get much credit with Ulthuan. I want to go on Elfcation but it feels dishonest to try to argue that an internship with the people that Asur feel freaked out by will get us a lot of political goodwill. Look at how Boney described their academic knowledge.

Imagine we saved some random village in the Wastelands from the Fimir or some other enemy. Would Marienburg care all that much about it? No. It's the Wastelands, not something important. And as it stands the internship is the reward. Sure, if Mathilde kills Malekith or some other named Druchii she'll get credit for it. But we aren't to face Named Druchii.
I did not specify Ulthuan as a whole. I'm sure the entire kingdom of Nagarythe can scrape up something we'd be happy to receive, if it comes up.
 
If we do the elfcation, i hope we will at least catch a glimpse of Alith Anar. It's unlikely, but would be nice.
I have good news, friend.

@BoneyM I have to ask, if Ranald nudges the dice hard enough when/if we go to Nagarythe, is it possible for us to run into Alith Anar? The Shadow King Himself?
Yes.

This is one reason I'd rather go into the Elfcation with The Gambler rather than the Protector, even though the latter would otherwise be ideal.
 
[x] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.
[x] Initiate
[x] Dooming and Quickening
[x] Entrance Examination
 
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Because Laurelorn is already preparing to tie itself to the Empire by trade - we're told this in the update. This isn't opening up Laurelorn to trade, it's speeding up and improving trade for the EIC specifically. Which is no doubt beneficial for the EIC monetarily and for spying purposes, but isn't actually all that much more than Laurelorn was already preparing for, in terms of trade.

I agree. In fact I remember we codified the Fog Path spell and then did the Fog Bridge action specifically for this (plus we also have the option to establish trade routes with Laurelorn).

Honestly it doesn't seem like we will get anything except speed up this process, it seems to me that the only thing we will get is making the EIC richer and more influential. But not speed up ties between the Empire and Laurelorn.
 
If you want to talk utility then what have we actually gained from the Library? A tiny increase in some situational bonuses? How is that worth the blank-cheque of a boon and the many half AP we have spent on it?

Currently what we are using the EIC for is to create economic ties between the Reik Empire and Laurelorn. Ties that we our minion can monitor for any signs of trouble and that will enrich not only Mathilde but many of her friends and allies. Ties that help to stabilise international relations and prompt cooperation.

The EIC isn't just a money generator. It isn't just a place for our spies to hang out. It isn't just a tool for shaping the geopolitical landscape.
Well, some people already responded with arguments to this, but to make a point myself:
Trade goods do not necessarily provide completely unique resource, since they just strengthen EIC and speed up bond with the elves, which will happen slower on its own. Meanwhile, books we will get from BookMaxxing are a completely unique opportunity we will never get otherwise. Like, genuinely, I do not see elves opening up their military topics to us without an equivalent favor, and Ithilmar was the simplest one. Unless we are saving them from a Waagh or a massive Beastherd, we ain't getting those books otherwise.
 
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Earthbound magic, it is widely known to the Wizards of the Colleges, has no inherent nature.

Earthbound magic, it is widely known to the Elementalists, inherits a nature from the material it resides within.

You spend a frustrating amount of time bouncing between these two seemingly irreconcilable facts. Earthbound magic is everywhere, and to your senses it is plain as day that it retains the same neutrality of nature wherever it resides. You skim through volume after volume searching for some explanation for why the Elementalists would pin their whole profession on something so plainly untrue, and you overlook the key to it all time and time again because of institutional ego. Time and time again you find it repeated within the books that Elementalists should avoid magical clashes with wielders of the Winds, and time and time again you react to it with only a smile. It's only in a treatise of an exceptionally boring Elementalist that you find the usually unwritten assumption actually written: that while Earthbound magic resonates within the material elements, it resonates much more strongly with the Winds that it originally was.

Of course you cannot see the elemental resonance within Earthbound magic - just by being in the same room as it, you have reverted it to its original nature. No experiment performed by a College Wizard, or performed within a College laboratory, will ever see anything but the neutral state of Earthbound magic. Come to think of it, anywhere in Altdorf would be subject to the same disruption, as for almost two centuries it has been constantly awash with the Wind of the current Supreme Patriarch. It is something like if you concluded that snow was a myth because you performed all your studies of it in the summer.

Having been slowly and agonizingly drawn to the conclusion that maybe the fundamental basis of Elementalism does exist, you return to the beginning and reread it with a slightly more open mind: Earthbound magic drawn from one of the four elements retains a resonance with that element, so it is more easily able to manipulate it. Earthbound magic drawn from water resonates with water, and thus can manipulate it more easily. Doing so to water that is itself also awash with Earthbound magic allows for the creation of Elementals, mobile accretions of that element able to perform simple tasks. By exploiting this resonance, and offloading some of the magical burden to energies already present within the manipulated element, the Elementalists are capable of magical feats far beyond what the raw power of the magic they're channelling would suggest.

It all makes sense. It is a very basic form, possibly the most basic form, of the conceptual resonance that Hedge Magic seems to rely upon. It explains why they are sometimes seen within the Elven quarter of Marienburg - because Elves do not transform themselves or their environment with a chosen Wind in the same way that College Wizards do, so they are able to identify and exploit the resonance for simple tasks when using Aqshy or Ghyran or Azyr would be overkill. Put that way, it slots neatly into the Cardinal understanding of the Winds that Elves prefer over the Elemental and Mystical understandings. Elemental in the Wind sense, that is - is even Reikspiel itself conspiring to confound the Colleges in this matter? Those two concepts have different words in Eltharin.

Might this, you cannot help but wonder, be part of the nature of Ice Magic? Ice in the Empire might be a transitory thing, but in Kislev it never entirely disappears, only withdraws to the mountains and glaciers. Could this permanence allow it to acquire a nature of its own for Earthbound magic to resonate with? If not on its own, then with the attentions of a God and the scavenged infrastructure of the Waystone network bent to this end?

With curiosity sated and institutional ego bruised, you return the books to the clutches of the Librarian-We and turn your attention back to your duties.
You also arrange for the translation into Reikspiel of the Indic texts on Aqshy that you acquired from the Elementalists after confirming that there aren't any to be found among those texts - perhaps the Elementalists kept or lost the translations, or perhaps the books came from an Indic-speaking Elementalist that left the books to the College upon their death. Finding someone who speaks Indic, is knowledgeable enough about magical theory to accurately translate treatises on Aqshy, can be trusted with that knowledge, and can be convinced to drop whatever they're doing in favour of making translations is one of those minor miracles that the Collegiate infrastructure manages on a daily basis, and you receive the translations back with gratifying promptness. While you're not the most versed in Collegiate Aqshy theory, you spot a few key differences immediately, with the eight Teclisean Winds being split into five 'positive' Winds - Hysh, Azyr, Aqshy, Ghyran, and Chamon - and the three 'negative' Winds of Ghur, Ulgu, and Shyish. According to Indic philosophy - or at least what you understand of the portion of it you're able to glimpse through these few books - the presence of instinct, confusion, and fatalism are unnatural states to be minimized, while the presence of inspiration, passion, foresight, nurturing, and logic are natural states to be encouraged. This means that under Indic doctrine, their equivalent of Amethyst, Amber, and Grey Wizards are Battle Wizards, while practitioners of the other five Winds give rise to what you might recognize as more typical Magisters.

The inevitable result of this is that these Indic books on Aqshy are very different to Collegiate ones. Where the Colleges focus on the brute force that the fires of Aqshy can bring to bear, these books focus on the ability of the Wind of Fire to instill bravery and passion. An Indic Bright Wizard would be more of a leader than an artillery piece on the battlefield, and outside of it their most visible roles would be as leaders of festivals and counsellors against melancholia. There's also a bodily component of all this you don't quite understand that says that Aqshy concentrates most readily in the thumb, the eyes, and the stomach, and references to a pair of deities apparently associated with the Wind of Fire. You don't know if any of this would be compatible with the Collegiate use of Aqshy, but you shrug and send a note to the Bright College letting them know where to find the books if they're interested.
This is why I want the books. (It's also why I, perhaps erroneously, worded the write-in the way I did.) We got all of this from the Elementalists's small library. First, an examination of an entirely different magical tradition that, due to our suffusion in Ulgu, Mathilde literally cannot see. Second, an insight into Indic magical culture, and an entirely different understanding of Aqshy than the Collegiate's view. I want more of this. I want more of this wonderful writing, I want Mathilde to learn from it, and the Library of Mourning is several libraries bigger than the Elementalist's tiny collection.

To me, the mechanical benefits, (including apparently, the entire rest of the library) aren't as important. But that's just my bias. The mechanical benefits are real and very, very valuable. But what excites me is the opportunity for more of this kind of incredibly engaging insight into the Eonir's understanding of magic.
 
[x] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods
[x] Dooming and Quickening
[x] Entrance Examination
[x] Kalashiniviks
[x] The Festival Lord
[x] Niedzwenka
 
[X] [ITHILMAR] Books, primarily restricted books on magic with everything else secondary.
[X] [ITHILMAR] A copy of the Library of Mournings, including most restricted texts.

Boney has taken on the humongous task of taking as much of Warhammer Fantasy as possible and hammering out an actual coherent magical framework for it, and I would like to see as many different facets of it as possible.

Among the blind people argueing over what an elephant is, it pays to be the one walking around touching everywhere they can.

As for socials:

[X] Swordplay
[X] Sarvoi
[X] Initiate
[X] Dooming and Quickening
[X] Entrance Examination

Ijustthinkthey'reneat.jpg
 
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[X] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods
[X] Initiate
[X] Dooming and Quickening
[X] Witch Hunter
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] The Festival Lord
[X] Druchii Diplomats
 
People were insistent that we should do the ithilmar thing for money.
So i am voting for trade goods or gems, because those translate to money.
If the money argument had not been such a prominent driver of the action, i would be voting for books, but it wasn't.
 
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