Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I think that any Waystone still needs some kind of mage for assembly, just to make sure all the components slot in properly and it is not spewing invisible Dhar over the local populace so one might as well make them leyline stones.
If it's just to make sure it's done right, the no-magical-components version might very well be doable with someone who only has witch-sight instead of actually needing to do magic, theoretically opening up the pool of people who can oversee it to a portion of priests and witch-hunters, priests especially i suspect are gonna have a disproportionate amount of people who felt the calling who could actually "feel" the divine without necessarily being able to do anything with it themselves.

Ley lines do not form, they are the underlying magical geography of the planet, put there by the Old Ones when they teraformed it
I'm pretty sure we've literally got word form boney that we could PROBABLY theoretically brute force the creation of leylines through the full on expenditure of orbs of sorcery, which very much suggests its not just an old-one-only thing.

Edit: and this was also in the context of "alternatives to caledor doing it", the magic flowing through the vortex is also a suitable power source for this.
 
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I wonder the value of looking at an air transmission method and use that as part of a loose storageless/minimun storage network of non magical or barely magical waystones that can dump their output into a higher end waystone.

Very slow to transmit, and might not be much better than tributarys.
 
[X] Karak to Karak

I gotta be honest though, I don't think Belegar's that pissed about the Waystone thing anymore. Remember the interlude where the Eyes of Grimnir were reactivated? While he doesn't idolize Thorgrim anymore, I don't think he distrusts him anymore either.

[X] Okri to Okri

Because I like Kragg.

[Jk] Cult to Cult (Ranald to Thungni)

Mathilde may not be a High Priest of Ranald, but I'd argue that whenever she's in her tower or her Gyrocopter she's the Highest Priest of Ranald.
 
While I would prefer a secondary waystone that doesn't have the same flaws as our first one, I'd like to see the realities of waystone deployment before voting on making a second one.

If it takes one AP to design a new waystone, but the same AP could instead deploy waystones to Praag, then there's no reason to make a new waystone. But if it turns out that it takes an AP and a dice roll just to match schedules with a High Mage etc every time we want to create a very limited number of waystones and THEN another AP to deploy them, then we might want to consider designing the secondary right away.

We can leave off secondary waystone design until after the effects of the bottleneck are felt.
 
Well how many theoretical waystones can we deploy using 1 AP? Can we take action to stream line the process? Do we have to look at a waystone network first before deploying?
 
Boney? Do you mind answering if it would normally take Runesmiths months to complete the waystone components (ie the Inductor and the Dwarf Waystone Rune)? It would match the time the other components took. Like would the Runesmith need to wait for the waystone to be finished to put on the Rune and would that take a day or a few months? Obviously I'm not asking for hard numbers, just for the general neighborhood of what it should be like.

I've never factored WFRP rules into my depictions of Runesmithing. As described in the most recent update it took Thorek a few days to make the Waystone Rune, though it would probably take a more typical example of Runesmith a week or two. The Runic Inductor has never been incorporated into a Waystone so any estimation would be hazy, but here Thorek did describe the component Runes as being simple and doable by a Journeyman, so it's unlikely to be a bottleneck.

The waystone components took "several months" to complete. Though that number is probably higher than it usually will be as people are getting use to making the components, but any decrease in time shouldn't be notable save for the enchantment. I do not think that the Stone Flower takes the same amount of time as the transmission component or the reverse-engineered storage, or that the time it takes is even remotely comparable.

It was a prototype. For most of the components it was the first ever time they were actually made in full, because the previous examples of them were only proofs of concept. There also needed to be adjustments made for the components to fit together for the first time. There would still be huge gains to be made in efficiency once things get rolling.

@Boney Would waystones effect on Waaagh energy be in the classified section of the elf library or can we just look that up?

Waaagh energy is not attracted to or absorbed by Waystones. It is attracted to Waaaghs, Shamans, and various kinds of totems, and in the absence of any of those it dissipates. There hasn't really been much research into how you can combat the Waaagh energy directly because if you've got any of the things it's attracted to intact and nearby, then most of the time you'll be focused on making that no longer be the case anyway.

Huh, I was thinking about waystone networks, and we cannot do a chain of waystones leading to a riverine stone which drops it in a river, right? Riverine stones cannot be the endpoint of key line stones, right? Because we need to Ulthuan magical tongue twister to cause a ley line to form, and that requires a connection to the Vortex. Is my understanding correct?

Theoretically you could build a chain of Waystones connected to the existing network that incorporates a riverine one, have Caledor connect them all up, and then once it's established themselves you could switch the riverine one to start using the river as an output instead of the leyline. But if you don't have any ultimate connection to the Vortex then you can't use it as a transmission method.

Ley lines do not form, they are the underlying magical geography of the planet, put there by the Old Ones when they teraformed it

It's used inconsistently. Sometimes to mean the natural flow of underground energies, sometimes any flow of underground energies, sometimes only what the Old Ones built. A recurring theme of the project is that everyone involved in it has slightly different sets of terminologies to refer to mostly the same things, and that they all get confusing when you try to use the to refer to everything that exists instead of just what can be found in their backyard.

Well how many theoretical waystones can we deploy using 1 AP? Can we take action to stream line the process? Do we have to look at a waystone network first before deploying?

You don't. APs spent on rollout is going to be getting the government buy-in and people and resources in place to do it and then moving on to whatever else as they continue to do it until the job is done.
 
Would you rather spend actions deploying waystones that will serve as geographic features for the next four thousand years or would you rather deploy waystones that might be around by the end of the next century? I know what I would rather do.
I would rather get a bunch of rated-only-for-a-century Waystones up, fast, that would cut down Praag or Mordheim or Drakenhof or Troll Country within a decade, rather then to spend a century slowly dotting those places with masterwork-tier Waystones.

Because every year that Sylvania remains Sylvania, is a year that a Vampire or Necromancer can arise out of the blue and menace a village or city or two. Every year that Praag remains Praag, is a year that somebody can be driven to madness or apostasy or possession or mutation, and every year that Troll Country remains Troll Country is a year in which... I dunno, does Kislev just get a constant flow of gribblies out of it, or is it just missing out on a ton of farmland and the ability to settle (and thus deploy defenses on) territory?

And then, once the "this powerplant is only rated for a century" are placed, then the Tsars and Emperors and Elector Counts can start going "Okay, now let me shell out the big bucks for the good Waystones."


There are two different dimensions to "What is the bottleneck in Waystones? How do we make Waystones faster?", and you seem to be focusing on the 'How can we improve the Waystone masterpiece process' one rather than the 'How can we cut down the Mean-Time-To-Trigger-For-A-Gribbly-Invasion for Kislev/Sylvania/etc?' one.

Yes, if we focus purely on creating lots of Reverse-Engineered Storage Systems type Waystones, the result is that the Reverse Engineering aspect will get better, be more understood; and thus in the long run, the Waystone type will improve, and you will have sturdy and dependable Waystones everywhere, over a long period of time.

But if we create a type of Waystone that can be mass-produced much easier and placed everywhere -- or, even if they are limited in where they can be placed, or require something, I dunno -- it would still be beneficial because even if you are cutting corners you are still de-gribblyfying the world faster.


In fact, in certain situations, it might be better to have multiple types of Waystones available for purchase and production; having a masterwork-Waystone plop down somewhere strategically, and then having a bunch of lesser-work-Waystones dotting it, like the spokes of a wheel, and having a bunch of Tributaries dotting all of those Waystones.

A Tsar or Elector Count could use the tough Waystone as a bulwark or a strongpoint, and then the more-mass-producible Waystones as "Just get in there and hold the line" type things.


If the concern is that "But once people solve their problems with cheaper-Waystones, then they won't ever want to shell out for the grand Waystones! So we have to make sure we only present them the best type of Waystone, or else nothing will ultimately have been solved!" then, well... possibly you have a lower opinion of people and rulers, and also possibly you have a lower opinion of the Waystone Project's -- and their backers or leaders; the Queen of Laurelorn, King Belegar, Tsar Boris, Mathilde, etc -- ability to influence people and rulers. The Waystone Project's leaders and backers will want to use the Waystone Project to sell Elector Counts the idea of big-ticker Waystones as something that is a sign of luxury or power or safety or whatever. And if Boris and Roswita are told that they can get less-good Waystones fast, but which will need to be either maintenanced a lot or replaced soon, and that they should shell out for the good stuff once they have cleaned up their home and have enough money for it... they'll listen. Because Sylvania and Kislev are two places that have a long history of suffering from Undead or Chaos, and also a recent history of being under threat and harmed by dark magic or mutation or problems, and they also have rulers that are very well aware of those problems.
 
And if Boris and Roswita are told that they can get less-good Waystones fast, but which will need to be either maintenanced a lot or replaced soon, and that they should shell out for the good stuff once they have cleaned up their home and have enough money for it... they'll listen.



If a place gets a Waystone it'll probably get stuck with that Waystone for the foreseeable future.

There's just too much demand for Waystones relative to production capacity: resource poor places that need a lot of Waystones like Stirland and Kislev won't have that many resources to invest in long term infrastructure.
 
If it's just to make sure it's done right, the no-magical-components version might very well be doable with someone who only has witch-sight instead of actually needing to do magic, theoretically opening up the pool of people who can oversee it to a portion of priests and witch-hunters, priests especially i suspect are gonna have a disproportionate amount of people who felt the calling who could actually "feel" the divine without necessarily being able to do anything with it themselves.

At the very least you should have a perpetual checking their work, we know how those work. We do not know how the perpetual equivalent of a priest works, for all we know they cannot sense Dhar or they cannot sense it well enough etc.. When the thing you are trying to smell is a gas leak in the middle of a populated area it is kind of vital that your sense of smell is reliable
 
If a place gets a Waystone it'll probably get stuck with that Waystone for the foreseeable future.

There's just too much demand for Waystones relative to production capacity: resource poor places that need a lot of Waystones like Stirland and Kislev won't have that many resources to invest in long term infrastructure.
If lots of places need Waystones, then shouldn't we make some versions of them cheaper and faster to produce?

Or doesn't that just mean that we should very carefully consider whether we expand the number of nations we sell to -- because if all the production is focused on exports, we'll never have time to go back over the places we already covered and give them more-permanent coverage? ((Yes, this could mean that other nations would have troubles for longer; but on the other hand, insisting that we shouldn't solve a problem unless we can solve it equally for everyone, also seems wrong. Could also result in hard feelings in the early adopters who signed up to the table first, or... Eh. That's farther off and more speculate, whatever.))

Sometimes to solve the long-term problem, you have to first solve the shorter term problem of a threat of constant zombie attacks popping up and chewing your limb off. Then once you've done that, once you're more secure and can make more money from your land, you can go back to the table and buy the better Waystones.

Because if the foreseeable future of 'when you can get a better Waystone' is "2-5 decades from now", places like Sylvania or Kislev or Mousillon might take that trade; because in those 2-5 decades you can root out every undead/chaos/troll gribbly, expand and hold ground, protect your people, and expand your economy. Then, once you've taken a breather, you can get back to the Waystone Project and purchase the long-lasting Waystones.

Or maybe they... don't do that, and instead accept perpetually having rated-for-a-century Waystones dotting your land, or this-needs-maintenance-every-year types. Which is not a perfect ideal but is still an arguable and debatable one? If they make economic or military trade-offs like that, they might be right in their choices.

At that point, it is still possible to get them to buy the premium Waystones too, y'know? That sort of thing is in part what having a richer central authority -- such as a King or an Emperor -- is for; to pay for things that pan out in the long run rather than in the immediate run. Or what having peers that go "Why do you still have those poor-man's-Waystones? You should upgrade to the newer fashion." is for. Or organizations focused on combatting the dark powers or protecting the land or fighting dark magic; such as the Templars or the Colleges of Magic, or the Cults of Sigmar/Ulric/Taal and Rhya, or maybe the Waystone Project.

Because planning for the thousand-years-view is something that can be done in various ways; you can either force everyone to buy the premium Waystones by not making simpler Waystones available, or you can sell them the simpler ones and let them use time and money they save doing that, to make their situations safer and less untenable. Then once they're safer and richer, they can buy the better ones.

Or persist in buying the simpler ones all the time I guess. Not ideal, but if the situation explodes again and a country or two gets bumped down into the Time of Three Emperors or post-Asavar Kul Kislev, then at least this time around, we still would have more areas that did have the premium Waystones built, right? And people would know that Waystones were possible to build again, and so can do it again; repeating the Waystone Project again, because the project proved that it can be done outside of the Golden Age.
 
I would like to once again ask one question that interests me, but to which I have not found an answer. Has the answer been given to how the Valaya Rune was powered before the Golden Age?

Because the need to protect dwarves from Chaos appeared at least after the Great Catastrophe. However, it will likely take at least a thousand years before the creation of waystones begins. So in this interval, either the protection of the dwarves was carried out in some other way, or there was a different way of obtaining energy.
 
I would like to once again ask one question that interests me, but to which I have not found an answer. Has the answer been given to how the Valaya Rune was powered before the Golden Age?

We have no idea and as far as we know no one on the planet does. We also do not know how the Norse dwarfs powered their runes of Valaya since they were not on the network nor known to their southern kin. It could just be that in a wind dense enough environment the Hold Runes power themselves passively like any other runes
 
Waaagh energy is not attracted to or absorbed by Waystones. It is attracted to Waaaghs, Shamans, and various kinds of totems, and in the absence of any of those it dissipates.

Could Mathilde scout out some smaller orc bands to raid, or orc 'villages' to infiltrate; Either to steal a totem or look at it with magesight while it is undisturbed? Half an AP maybe, hehe.
 
We have no idea and as far as we know no one on the planet does. We also do not know how the Norse dwarfs powered their runes of Valaya since they were not on the network nor known to their southern kin. It could just be that in a wind dense enough environment the Hold Runes power themselves passively like any other runes
I think so do the inhabitants of the Young Holds, as well as the imperial dwarves. These rituals provide protection to any dwarf in the world under the proper conditions, and do not necessarily need to be performed in a hold connected to a network of waystones.
 
I would rather get a bunch of rated-only-for-a-century Waystones up, fast, that would cut down Praag or Mordheim or Drakenhof or Troll Country within a decade, rather then to spend a century slowly dotting those places with masterwork-tier Waystones.
Even within the update, creating the waystone's components took several months and putting it together took an indeterminate amount of time. If I was pressed into guessing hard numbers I would have guessed that it took somewhere between three and four months to put the pieces together and one or two months to put it together. I would have guessed that the prototyping would have knocked about a month off of the process for full production. With the main thing dragging the process out, both for prototyping and production, probably being the Transmission and the Storage. After all, those were the two Very Difficult components of the waystone.

Boney's comment seems to indicate that I was overly conservative with my guess about how faster full-production would be. Which is to say this probably won't be a project that takes centuries to complete. And how much faster can these waystones really be to make? Though yeah you could definitely have more people working on them. (Edit: In the short-term the bottleneck on waystone production would be archmages, in the long term it is time, because eventually the archmage problem will go away. But that will take more time to go away if you try to emphasize non-golden age storage waystones.)

The waystone network probably never even existed in the Troll Country. I wouldn't mind putting them there. With just about everything else though we have a waystone network around and present. Many places will need some successive waystones to reach, but the waystone network is present. It's only a matter of time before we can actually restore the network rather than just put a bandaid over the wound. That time would be shortened further by developing a pure leyline waystone more than it could be shortened by developing cheap waystones.

Besides, Kislev will need time to rebuild before it will be in a position to begin a mass reclamation of territories like the Troll Country. It hasn't had a beneficial central government worth noting for the past two centuries.

The only locations that would really need multiple waystones concentrated in one area is Praag and its equivalents. In which case throwing a bunch of cheap waystones does not seem like a great idea. (Edit: I'm not saying that throwing material waystones into Praag is just outright going to break them, but it just seems like a much better idea to like... put the good stuff up in Praag rather than the cheap stuff. Especially in the early stages. When, you know, bloody streets.)

Your proposal for the cheap waystones to act as wheel spokes to better waystones also doesn't fit how the deployment of tributaries and waystones is described. Ideally waystones should have eight tributaries, with each tributary located on the horizon (3 miles I think) of the waystone. Then you would have the tributaries of the next waystone an indeterminate distance away (maybe 3 miles, maybe less?) and the waystone 3 miles away from its own tributaries. Tributaries are a hell of a lot easier to manage than waystones. I'd be much better to just make them than waystones if supplementing waystones in normal places is what you're planning. Obviously places like Praag or Mordheim are different. You also wouldn't need to send someone trusted enough to know the keyphrases to do it. Riverine waystones obviously can't really do the spoke thing.
 
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I think so do the inhabitants of the Young Holds, as well as the imperial dwarves. These rituals provide protection to any dwarf in the world under the proper conditions, and do not necessarily need to be performed in a hold connected to a network of waystones.

But the Runes of Valaya are also carved into the walls of the Holds to protect against Storms of Chaos.
 
But the Runes of Valaya are also carved into the walls of the Holds to protect against Storms of Chaos.
I can only assume that we are talking about different Runes of Valaya. There are mega-projects that were created in ancient times that no one fully understands, and there are quite familiar runes that continued to be used at least during the Silver Age.
 
I can only assume that we are talking about different Runes of Valaya. There are mega-projects that were created in ancient times that no one fully understands, and there are quite familiar runes that continued to be used at least during the Silver Age.

Kind of and kind of not.

Every single dwarf hold even the New Holds has a big Rune of Valaya actually carved on it. These are also powered by the Big Rune in Karaz A Karak, it could hardly be otherwise since Thorgrim says in the interlude that they are a drain on the system, if it was just the dwarfs inside of them through the Rites of Valaya then they would draw the same amount of power no matter where they were, the holds themselves must be using Valaya protection from the network somehow. Therefore modern dwarfs can still make infrastructure outpput runes, that provide protection to a new hold, they just do not know how to put more power into the system.
 
Maybe only the big rune matters in that sense, and while other holds probably have additional runic wards, the base protection against petrification can be applied to any dwarf anywhere as long as you know the right rituals to invoke the big rune.
 
Theoretically you could build a chain of Waystones connected to the existing network that incorporates a riverine one, have Caledor connect them all up, and then once it's established themselves you could switch the riverine one to start using the river as an output instead of the leyline. But if you don't have any ultimate connection to the Vortex then you can't use it as a transmission method.

Weren't there were some orphaned chains of Waystone that were no longer connected to the wider network that just stopped and magic from the ones up the leyline flowed down an built up in the terminal Waystone until that overloaded, and then along the line in turn?

The Waystones in that orphaned chain don't have have an ultimate connection to the network but are still transmitting them down leylines until they get to the last one?
 
If lots of places need Waystones, then shouldn't we make some versions of them cheaper and faster to produce?

Or doesn't that just mean that we should very carefully consider whether we expand the number of nations we sell to -- because if all the production is focused on exports, we'll never have time to go back over the places we already covered and give them more-permanent coverage? ((Yes, this could mean that other nations would have troubles for longer; but on the other hand, insisting that we shouldn't solve a problem unless we can solve it equally for everyone, also seems wrong. Could also result in hard feelings in the early adopters who signed up to the table first, or... Eh. That's farther off and more speculate, whatever.))

Sometimes to solve the long-term problem, you have to first solve the shorter term problem of a threat of constant zombie attacks popping up and chewing your limb off. Then once you've done that, once you're more secure and can make more money from your land, you can go back to the table and buy the better Waystones.

Because if the foreseeable future of 'when you can get a better Waystone' is "2-5 decades from now", places like Sylvania or Kislev or Mousillon might take that trade; because in those 2-5 decades you can root out every undead/chaos/troll gribbly, expand and hold ground, protect your people, and expand your economy. Then, once you've taken a breather, you can get back to the Waystone Project and purchase the long-lasting Waystones.

Or maybe they... don't do that, and instead accept perpetually having rated-for-a-century Waystones dotting your land, or this-needs-maintenance-every-year types. Which is not a perfect ideal but is still an arguable and debatable one? If they make economic or military trade-offs like that, they might be right in their choices.

At that point, it is still possible to get them to buy the premium Waystones too, y'know? That sort of thing is in part what having a richer central authority -- such as a King or an Emperor -- is for; to pay for things that pan out in the long run rather than in the immediate run. Or what having peers that go "Why do you still have those poor-man's-Waystones? You should upgrade to the newer fashion." is for. Or organizations focused on combatting the dark powers or protecting the land or fighting dark magic; such as the Templars or the Colleges of Magic, or the Cults of Sigmar/Ulric/Taal and Rhya, or maybe the Waystone Project.

Because planning for the thousand-years-view is something that can be done in various ways; you can either force everyone to buy the premium Waystones by not making simpler Waystones available, or you can sell them the simpler ones and let them use time and money they save doing that, to make their situations safer and less untenable. Then once they're safer and richer, they can buy the better ones.

Or persist in buying the simpler ones all the time I guess. Not ideal, but if the situation explodes again and a country or two gets bumped down into the Time of Three Emperors or post-Asavar Kul Kislev, then at least this time around, we still would have more areas that did have the premium Waystones built, right? And people would know that Waystones were possible to build again, and so can do it again; repeating the Waystone Project again, because the project proved that it can be done outside of the Golden Age.
I feel like this train of thought assumes cheapest of waystones will have same quality of service which is very dangerious assumption.

For example the proposed mundane waystone has no storage meaning in the first storm of magic (or Morrslieb) will overload and shut it down untill it passes. In Kislev that might be a fatal flaw, that far north SoM are probably common. And selling a waystone that doesn't protect from a SoM is almost worthless.

So we are at the spot, quality, speed, price pick two.
 
We also do not know how the Norse dwarfs powered their runes of Valaya since they were not on the network nor known to their southern kin. It could just be that in a wind dense enough environment the Hold Runes power themselves passively like any other runes
I would assume they didn't have those Runes at all, and turned to some other method of protecting themselves, as they lost contact with the greater KA due to the first Chaos incursion, and before that, the protections of the Rune of Valaya were unnecessary for Dwarfs to live. The Ruens and Rites can't have been used in the same way prior to that, because otherwise the Chaos Dwarfs would have used them, and then not felt abandoned by the Ancestor Gods.
 
Could Mathilde scout out some smaller orc bands to raid, or orc 'villages' to infiltrate; Either to steal a totem or look at it with magesight while it is undisturbed? Half an AP maybe, hehe.

To what end?

Weren't there were some orphaned chains of Waystone that were no longer connected to the wider network that just stopped and magic from the ones up the leyline flowed down an built up in the terminal Waystone until that overloaded, and then along the line in turn?

The Waystones in that orphaned chain don't have have an ultimate connection to the network but are still transmitting them down leylines until they get to the last one?

Yes, that's what I mean. Once the flow is established it continues indefinitely, but there needs to be a connection to the Vortex to establish it in the first place.
 
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